Messages

1

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: AHA First Round

« on: May 05, 2011, 07:35:05 pm »

I appreciate the you gave my beer a 36 but what I really want to know is where did I lose 14 points?

Sadly, that's the toughest sort of feedback to give.  Any judge will do a decent job of detecting obvious faults, the better judges are good at picking up subtle problems and minor style faults. It's a rare judge that's both a good enough taster and a  good enough brewer to give you ideas on how to make a good beer great.

If it makes you feel any better, your beer didn't "lose" 14 points. It probably lost more like 9 points. That's because most judges mentally reserve scores of 45-50 for hypothetical "perfect" beers. I've described these top level beers as:

...
My guess is that, at the level you're at, you've got no process or technique faults. You're using the right ingredients and tools and you know your equipment well. What you need is more experience with subtle tweaks and recipe formulations...

Thank you for the very thoughtful reply. The reluctance to score 45-50 explains a lot. I was also trying to be modest, the beer I was quoting from actually scored a 40 and moved on to the second round. Being that close to the maximum likely score explains the lack of much concrete criticism.

Thanks.

2

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: AHA First Round

« on: May 05, 2011, 12:36:18 pm »

Good points tntjr, I probably could have phrased what I meant better.  Obviously the whole point of BJCP training is to teach people to do a better job tasting and judging beers, and one of the main goals is to give good feedback to entrants.  But there is a level of subjectivity to judging that is less than ideal.  When Jeff points out (correctly) that "You win some and you lose some - different judge different day" it makes it difficult to always take the comments of the judges to heart.  If it was more consistent that would be great, but that's not the way it works.

For example, let's say that a judge says your IPA isn't bitter enough.  Do you immediately change your recipe and up the IBUs?  What if that was their 8th IPA of the flight, and the one immediately before was too bitter and thin?  What if it was the first beer and they just finished their coffee?  What if that judge just prefers an IPA with higher IBUs?  Training can help eliminate some of these problems, but you can't eliminate order bias in our judging format.  Winning or losing one competition doesn't mean anything, winning consistently does.  So getting feedback from one set of judges is of limited use in my opinion, but getting similar feedback from several sets is very useful.

As for those specific scoresheets, the judge mentions malt, toast, and roast.  The description doesn't mention toast, it mentions sweetness and caramelization.  Maybe that is what the judge thought was missing.

I understand there are subjective factors to the scores and I expect that, but I shouldn't have to guess what the judge's criteria, subjective or objective were. Tell me exactly how you feel this beer fell short of your ideal 50 point beer.

I may not change my recipe based on one set of scores but if I start to see a trend then I'll have to acknowledge that my interpretation of the style differs from the consensus. I can then change the recipe if I want to score high and win contests or I can keep brewing what I have been and accept that my goals for this style differ from the consensus.

Tom

3

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: AHA First Round

« on: May 05, 2011, 06:03:55 am »

Yeah, someone thought my American Barleywine was too hoppy!   

And a beginner judge recommended that I thin my RIS with water!   

My ginger ale was last in our homebrew club competition in February, but it was touch and go for first or second in the NHC 1st round.

Yeah, you get some boneheaded comments from judges.  I've had judges tasting the same beer say it was "bone dry" and "cloyingly sweet".    But if they both give it a 30 it doesn't really matter to me if they can't phrase why it's not a great bottle, it's not going to advance.

...it doesn't really matter to me if they can't phrase why it's not a great bottle,

But that's the whole point to me. If there are objective reasons that my beer didn't win I want to know what they are, that's why I entered the contest in the first place.  I have so many score sheets that do a great job of providing a sensory evaluation of my beer but fail to make a single comment on how it deviated from the judges ideal for the style. I appreciate the you gave my beer a 36 but what I really want to know is where did I lose 14 points?

For example, I recently entered an Irish Red Ale. The BJCP gives this description for aroma:
Aroma: Low to medium malty sweetness, sometimes accentuated by low to moderate kettle caramelization. Some examples have a low hop aroma, light fruitiness, low diacetyl, and/or a low to moderate peaty aroma (all are optional). The peaty aroma is sometimes perceived as earthy, smoky or very lightly roasted.

Here are one of the judge's notes:
Aroma: Malty up front with a toast note and very light roast, no hops or esters which is OK for the style.

...and he gave the beer 8 of 12 points. Where did this beer lose 4 points? Why did this beer only reach 66% of your ideal for this category? The judges notes don't seem to vary from the guideline yet 8% of the total score was lost in this area.

I really appreciate that the judges are doing a great job of tasting the beers. Their ability to taste and describe the beers is more nuanced and accurate than ever, but there are few if any comments that I can use to improve the beers.

So judges, please feel free to give me your constructive negative criticism. I know I'm doing a competent job of brewing to the style, I need to know exactly what your looking for in this style that you didn't get from my beer.

Tom

4

Yeast and Fermentation / Re: WLP820 slow fermentation

« on: November 13, 2009, 04:47:10 pm »

Just finishing up fermenting my 1.056 maerzen with WLP820 after 30 days.

1 tube starter built up to 4 liters was pitched at 45 and let it rise to 50 and held it there.

Activity peaked around day 4 but I continued to get bubles every 10 seconds for three more weeks. Things finally slowed down around day 29 and a two day rest at 60 seems to have finally finished it up.

Looking forward to sampling tomorrow when I keg it for lagering.

Tom

5

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Questions for a class at Indiana University

« on: November 09, 2009, 08:33:54 pm »

-How much home brewing do you do in an average year?
    5 - 10 times

-What is your current cost to make a batch, and how much does that make?
    $25 - $40 for 5 gallons

-If properly licensed, how would you go about distributing your beer?
    Breweries in Ohio can self distribute so that would be the initial route.

-If you could, would you be willing to take your hobby to the next level and try to start a business?
    I have had commercial interest in my beers but brewing as a job would never be as enjoyable as homebrewing and I would just have to find another hobby.

-If yes, what is holding you back?
    The costs and risks are too great. I think I'll stick to my day job.

Tom

6

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Whatcha Brewin' this week?

« on: November 09, 2009, 07:52:33 pm »

Nothing brewing but it's time to move the marzen and holiday spiced ale to secondary.

Tom

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All Grain Brewing / Re: What kind of mash tun do you use?

« on: November 09, 2009, 07:41:36 pm »

10 gallon Rubermaid with a SS false bottom. Recent upgrade from Phil's Lauter Tun. Both work great though the insulation on the Rubermaid sure makes holding temps easier.

Tom