Messages

1726

All Grain Brewing / Re: Water Help..

« on: November 20, 2009, 08:50:45 AM »

However, at the very least you are going to need Calcium in some form.

I do add Calcium, but I wonder how much is really needed. There is also calcium and magnesium in the malt and some is released into the wort. I don't argue that calcium is benefical for beer quality but the benchmark mash that is done to determine extract potential is done with distilled water. The analysis also involves fermenting a sample of the produced wort to determine the wort fermentability which means that fermentation also works w/o calcium from the water.

An experiment on my wish list is brewing the same Pils with RO (~10 ppm Ca), 60 ppm Ca and 150 ppm Ca water. I'm curious to see how the flavor and in particular clarity of the beer is affected by the hardness of the water.

Kai

1727

All Grain Brewing / Re: pH questions regarding decoction mash

« on: November 20, 2009, 04:44:39 AM »

How could I miss a topic that has "pH" and "decoction" in its title

Woody, if the mash converted just fine, the pH was good enough too.

My thinking about pH and decoction mash is not only about the enzymes but also about the Maillard reactions and extraction of huks compounds. These are favored by higher pH and a decoction boil actually lowers the pH too. I.e. if you already start low you'll end up even lower at the end of the decoction. This being said, I did an experiment where I decoction mashed one Maerzen at 5.40 (starting mash pH) and the other one at 5.55. I was aiming for a larger pH spread but didn't get it b/c I didn't have the results of my mash pH experiment yet and overestimated the effects that the RA change would have.

I noted that the higher pH one has a bit more malt aroma but also noted that the differences are very subtle. I have to get my blog working again and publish the results.

If you want to raise the mash pH, you can start out with chalk. But chalk has the problem that it looses its effectiveness when more is added. I don't know why but my mash pH experiments showed that. Baking soda works better but you have to be careful that you don't add too much sodium to your water.

Kai

1728

All Grain Brewing / Re: Adjunct mash procedure

« on: November 19, 2009, 01:03:46 PM »

But wow, once you add the malt - phoomp - the whole thing goes from scary hot goo to scary hot liquid.

Why don't you add the malt in the beginning and hold it close to 75-80C (168-178F) for a few minutes? the a-aylase starts to denature at that temp but will still be active enough to liquefy the mash. Rice starch also starts to gelatenize around that temperature.

That't what I did with my cereal mash. Dough in at 160, heat to 170 and held it there for 10 min before heating to boiling.

Kai

1729

Extract/Partial Mash Brewing / Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?

« on: November 19, 2009, 12:59:30 PM »

Note the asterisk by the brown, dextrin, and light crystal, to which he states: "The low extraction from steeping is attributed to unconverted, insoluble starches as revealed by an iodine test."

It has been a long time that I read his page or book and wasn’t aware that he already has this info there. If that is true, and it likely is, shouldn’t we then advise against steeping light specialty malts since they release starches into the wort that cannot be converted? This also tells me that I should test light and dark crystal malt.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Kai

1730

All Grain Brewing / Re: Help with a Roggenbier water profile

« on: November 19, 2009, 11:48:38 AM »

I guess the thing I find most confusing about water chemistry is knowing what to shoot for.  Sure, I can find the numbers for a water profile from many regions, especially ones with historic links to brewing, but that doesn't mean that the brewers there don't alter their water... 

I get that question on occasions. My suggestion for almost any German beer is to keep the water fairly soft. That means shoot for about 50-80 ppm Ca, ~10 ppm Mg and a RA that works for your grist. I think in your case, w/o seeing the recipe, an RA of 0-30 ppm as CaCO3 should work.

To brew lighter beers, Munich brewers would decarbonate their water with lime and/or use lactic acid in the mash.

Kai

1731

All Grain Brewing / Re: Adjunct mash procedure

« on: November 19, 2009, 11:19:08 AM »

Adding a bit of malt (~10%) to the adjuncts cuts down the viscosity of the cereal mash significantly. I have tested this a while back when I brewed 2 CAPs. One with corn and one with rice.

corn cereal mash at 4 l/kg w/o malt:



corn cereal mash at 4 l/kg w/ malt:



The differences were even more dramatic with rice since rice starch swells much more than corn starch does. w/o malt I would not have been able to stir the mashes and w/ the malt I didn’t have to stir at all. Since I used the cereal mash to raise the main mash from 50C to 63C, I wasn’t able to use a thinner cereal mash.

Kai

1732

All Grain Brewing / Re: Water Help..

« on: November 19, 2009, 11:08:31 AM »

A lot, if not all, the micro nutrients that Fred mentioned should be present in malt. I build my water from RO water all the time and don't see fermentation issues.

Kai

1733

All Grain Brewing / Re: Help with a Roggenbier water profile

« on: November 19, 2009, 11:01:50 AM »

I'm brewing a Roggenbier next week and I'm not really where to start for a water profile.  Should model it after a wheat beer?

Yes, I'd use the same profile you would use for a wheat beer. Munich water might be too alkaline unless you plan to use dark malts.

Kai

1734

Extract/Partial Mash Brewing / Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?

« on: November 19, 2009, 10:41:20 AM »

I was thinking something like this:
1) mash x amount of carapils and mash y amount of pale separately
2) mash x amount of carapils + y amount of pale together.
3) combine the runnings of 1 & compare to the runnings of 2.

Or is that the same thing but more complicated?

No, that is actually better than my initial approach. I'm always interested in eliminating as many factors as possible and to have a good control. One problem is, that I cannot be sure that I will get 100% conversion efficiency from the pale malt. I.e. not all the starches may convert and if that happens the pH, which will be different since even cara pils brings down the pH a little, can affect the level of conversion. With the modified approach I don't have to worry about that since I'm going to use onlt the enzymes extracted from malt. The control will have the enzymes disabled by boiling.

Kai

1735

The Pub / Re: It will take some time...

« on: November 19, 2009, 09:24:53 AM »

It also takes a while until Google starts putting hits in this forum on page 1.

Kai

1736

Extract/Partial Mash Brewing / Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?

« on: November 19, 2009, 08:45:19 AM »

I don't believe (I don't know, have never tested) that all the starch in crystal malts has been converted.  It is in this starch conversion that I believe that base malt (with enzymes) will assist.

Fred, if that is truly the case we would have to advise against simple steeping of specialty grains since that could cause the release of starches into the wort. But so far I have not heard of excessive starch haze in extract + steeped grain beers. This is also easily tested with an iodine test.

Up to this point I always believed that no enzymes are necessary for proper extraction from crystal malts which is why can steep them. But I was always wondering if it is truly the case that crystal malt’s sugars are not affected by enzymes. I.e. can active b-amylase make some of the extract from crystal malt more fermentable during the mashing process?

That makes sense to me, and I've always sort of assumed the answer is yes.

I've been wondering about the actual extraction question for a while though. It would come down to whether or not all the starches in the endosperm are converted during malting, right?

Unless I'm mistaken, Kai's talking about testing extraction potential, not fermentability. For the moment, anyway. 

I changed my mind. I think it would be a more useful experiment if I were to test fermentability as well. I have done these experiments before with bread yeast and they are not that difficult to conduct.

Kai

1737

Extract/Partial Mash Brewing / Re: Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?

« on: November 19, 2009, 08:32:15 AM »

This may be a silly question, but how would gravity measurements let you know whether a sugar is more or less fermentable? I'd imagine that this could only be determined after fermentation with equal pitch rates and yeast strain based on the terminal gravity.

yes, that is correct. Threw in the statement about fermentability b/c it was just another though I had on the subject itself. Fermenting the produced wort in a fast ferment test setting might be able to show that. But to do that I rather do an experiment where I extract only the enzymes (cold water steep) and add them to a mash of only crystal malt. The control would be the addition of a boiled enzyme extract. The latter would compensate for the fact that even a cold water steep extracts extracts some sugar from malt.

Now that I think about it, that might be an experiment that is much better controlled than working with different grists that may cause different mash pH conditions. After fermenting the resulting wort, It would also be able to tell us if enzymes have an effect on the fermentability of crystal malt.

Kai

1738

Commercial Beer Reviews / Re: Octoberfest beers

« on: November 19, 2009, 08:01:52 AM »

kai - perhaps from filtering?

Possible. Or treatment with PVPP, which precipitates tannins. I hate to have to go to filtering to replicate that level of smoothness in the bitterness.

Unfortunately I didn’t have any Oktoberfest beers while I was in Germany last week. The season was over and when I was in Munich I couldn’t buy any since I wasn’t allowed to bring them on the plane. I was curious to what extend fresh examples exhibit the malt aroma/taste that we know from a good Doppelbock. In my experience this is the result of aging and I was pleasantly surprised that a Dunkel, that I had at Paulaner, had only little of that character and tasted remarkably close to my attempts at that style. When I had this beer previously it had more of that dark fruit velvety malty taste of a Doppelbock and I was wondering how they get that w/o aging the beer for a long time. It must have been an older bottle or keg. I currently have a Maerzen on tap that is full of that aroma/taste but it has also been brewed in March.

Kai

1739

Extract/Partial Mash Brewing / Are crystal malts better extracted in the presence of base malts?

« on: November 19, 2009, 07:48:03 AM »

While reading through Bamforth and Lewis’ “Essays in Brewing Science” I came across this interesting statement on page 87:

“crystal malts require pale malt for adequate extraction”

Up to this point I always believed that no enzymes are necessary for proper extraction from crystal malts which is why can steep them. But I was always wondering if it is truly the case that crystal malt’s sugars are not affected by enzymes. I.e. can active b-amylase make some of the extract from crystal malt more fermentable during the mashing process? That problem however is not necessarily what they mean with the above statement.

I’m thinking of an experiment that could demonstrate if Bamforth and Lewis’ statement is true: 3 mashes with the same mash thickness but different grists (100% carapils, 50/50 carapils/pale malt, 100% pale malt) mashed for 1 hour at the same temperature. Ideally the mash pH should be the same and may need some control since these 3 grists are expected to have different distilled water mash pH values. Level of extraction is then assessed by testing the gravity of the mash liquid. That is then put in relation to the potential of the respective grist and if the 50/50 grist is truly doing better than the 100% carapils grist there might be something to this.

Not that this has far reaching implications in brewing, it would just be good to know to satisfy the inner geek.

Kai

1740

The Pub / Re: It will take some time...

« on: November 19, 2009, 07:25:28 AM »

What we need are users who have questions. Many of the folks I see on here are very knowledgeable but not necessarily asking the questions that lead to the informative threads we had on other forums. And you are right, that will take time.

Kai