Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - musseldoc

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7
31
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: That German lager flavor
« on: August 14, 2012, 06:08:54 PM »
I also believe the source of the malt makes a big difference.  I have made many pils only beers using different cultivars and maltsters, and they all taste different. They all have that signature Pils sweetness, but side by side you can definitely tell they are not the same malt.  Some continental pils have too much sweetness and throw off the malt profile, for me; the resulting beers are a little less authentically German.  They come out more like French Pilsners, with almost a grape-like pils sweetness. 

Can you go into this a bit more? I mean, can you name some names? I'm interested to hear the results.

Sure.  I have tried with Briess, Munton Weyerman and one from my homebrew shop labeled Belgian Pils (don't know the brand).  Munton calls their pils lager malt, but it is the traditional luv range of pils malt.  The Weyerman had the richest malt character with some sweetness.  The Belgian was fairly clean with a distinctive pils sweetness.  The Muntons had the intense pils sweetness that was grape-like.  Briess was somewhat sweet, but almost just neutral malt in character. 

32
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: That German lager flavor
« on: August 12, 2012, 07:06:33 PM »
I disagree, more tannins are not extracted.  Monitor the pH during the decoction and you'll see for yourself.  A decrease in pH decreases tannin extraction.  Higher temps off-gas CO and thus bicarbonate.  Additionally, the precipitation of calcium phosphate at higher temps releases hydrogen ions.  The pH has no choice but to go down. 

You may have a crush or lautering system that gets you 80+% efficiency anyways, so you may not see a change in mash efficiency.  Most will see an increase though.  However, you will have no choice but to see a difference in fermentability.  You cannot perform a step mash profile without converting more sugars into maltose and less into dextrins. 

33
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: That German lager flavor
« on: August 12, 2012, 05:54:22 PM »
I have found it results in a dryer finish (due to the higher fermentability of the wort), maltier profile and more authentic taste.  I have been amazed at how much malt flavor and complexity I can get out of a Pils only recipe using a decoction mash.  However, I believe the effects of the decoction mash are minimized if you use kilned specialty malts. The melanoidins are already present in the higher kilned malts, so you don't notice the effect of the decoction like you do with Pils only beers. 

Some continental pils have too much sweetness and throw off the malt profile, for me; the resulting beers are a little less authentically German.  They come out more like French Pilsners, with almost a grape-like pils sweetness. 

If decoction makes a more fermentable beer, it doesn't do so consistently. I haven't found that to be the case. Decoction cuts down on the hot break in the kettle, which would otherwise bind with hop acids and decrease utilization. So less hot break = more bitter beer. I also suspect decoction mashing extracts more tannins which contribute to that perception of dryness. I haven't found decoction to make my beers tastes more "authentic," though I do have a slight preference for decoction over melanoidin malt, but I've made beers I enjoy without either, just using 100% base malt and single infusion.

I've noticed that grape-like pils sweetness on some beers too, but I wasn't sure what was causing that.

What is interesting about the decoction process is that it defies conventional logic and does not extract excessive tannins.  The pH equilibrium shifts towards more acidic as you get closer to boiling, so tannins really are not extracted.  The increase in fermentability comes from the step mash profile of a triple decoction.  More time spent at the protein, limit dextrinase, beta amylase and alpha amylase rests increase fermentability and reduce body and mouthfeel.  This is why decoctions are dryer than non-decoctions, not because of hopping rates and tannins.  This is also why mash efficiency is improved with decoctions.  Now if you single infuse at an alpha rest, then do a single decoction to raise to mash-out, then no, you would not get increased fermentability. 

34
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: That German lager flavor
« on: August 12, 2012, 05:14:15 AM »
I hope I am not too late for the discussion to throw my two cents in here:

I think process, ingredients, water and fermentation play an equal role.  It is a combination of variables and no one thing.  While we have documentation of historical and current water profiles, German's cut their water with RO/DI too.  I know the Hofbrauhaus in Newport, KY uses a water softener on all of their brewing water.  I have found, myself, that when I cut my tap water 50% or 75% with RO/DI I get a different beer.  Generally, I prefer the lower hardness water as the malts flavors are richer and bitterness less harsh.

There is much discussion about decoction mashing.  I have found it results in a dryer finish (due to the higher fermentability of the wort), maltier profile and more authentic taste.  I have been amazed at how much malt flavor and complexity I can get out of a Pils only recipe using a decoction mash.  However, I believe the effects of the decoction mash are minimized if you use kilned specialty malts. The melanoidins are already present in the higher kilned malts, so you don't notice the effect of the decoction like you do with Pils only beers. 

I also believe the source of the malt makes a big difference.  I have made many pils only beers using different cultivars and maltsters, and they all taste different. They all have that signature Pils sweetness, but side by side you can definitely tell they are not the same malt.  Some continental pils have too much sweetness and throw off the malt profile, for me; the resulting beers are a little less authentically German.  They come out more like French Pilsners, with almost a grape-like pils sweetness. 

Yeast makes beer, right, so no doubt yeast makes a big difference.  I would even claim that using a yeast outside of its sweet spot even results in a profile that just makes you teeter on the edge and say its just a little off from authentically German.  I think in our haste, too warm of a diacetyl rest, too soon in the process, can slightly affect the melding (oxidation, conversion and reabsorption) of flavors.  I feel I get a slightly maltier beer when I leave it at 50F for 4-8 weeks, rather than fermenting 2-3 weeks and doing a D-rest warm.  I also lose that slight, fleeting, initial sulfur character that I taste in a lot of the great German lagers when I do the warm D-rest.  This may just be due to physics and vapor pressures and such when performing a warm D-rest rather than fermenting cold continuously.  In terms of fermenting, I think of it like low and slow in barbecuing.  Yeah, you can cut an hour off your day by searing, then going low and slow, but it just isn't quite the same as slowly and continuously letting the juices leak out of your grillables and sear over a long period at low temperatures.  The hard way is usually the best way, for me.   

Then again, what is authentically German anyways.  Traditional?  Modern?  Modern lagers are changing due to economics.  If chasing the flavors of a modern, mass-produces German lager is authentic, then I don't want to be authentic anyways.   

35
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: What makes it "Belgian"?
« on: August 04, 2012, 06:38:53 AM »
To me, it is the yeast profile.  If you brew a pilsner only beer, it can be either a boh pils, german pils, kolsch, saison or belgian golden strong; some would argue a cream ale too.  The main (not only) difference is the yeast.

That said, with the yeast flavors being highlighted with these beers, IMO, you have to be very careful with your hopping and grain bill or it just becomes muddled.  Too many flavors are (can be) clashing and it gets to be too much.  Ommegang and Stillwater, however, are doing great things with darker belgian style ales. 

36
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: 1st time using liquid yeast
« on: February 25, 2012, 06:03:36 AM »
I think it is even more important for new brewers to use starters.  I don't believe starters are just for advanced brewer trying to dial in the perfect yeast ester profile in their beer.  One of the biggest concerns with a new brewer is definitely going to be their sanitization practices.  If you pitch a new, inactive vial of yeast, the lag time will be longer than if you pitch an actively growing or fermenting starter.  This allows the yeast to get cranking in your beer MUCH faster, which will serve to protect you from minor errors in sanitization as the yeast will have a better chance of outcompeting other microbes. 

37
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: WL 670 American Farmhouse
« on: February 25, 2012, 05:52:45 AM »
I like to do that with all of my Belgian beers.  I like them to be highly attenuated and as the monks say "highly digestible". 

38
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: WLP001 fermented cold
« on: February 25, 2012, 05:35:54 AM »
A new vial pitched at 58F may be very sluggish, which overall is bad for the beer.  However, if you use an active starter it should work fine.  Jamil claims that Sierra Nevada brews with this strain at the temperatures you describe with great success.  It may have a slight sulfur note to it though. 

39
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: British Ale Yeast Flocculation
« on: January 26, 2012, 07:31:45 AM »
... Those genes should be inhibited in the presence of sugar, but cooling can cause the yeast to flocc...

Do you know of any data on which sugars regulate gene expression?  Is it limited to mono- vs di- vs trisaccharide groupings, or is it a specific sugar?  Could it be the increasing relative concentration of maltotriose as fermentables are consumed that triggers expression?

40
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Cold Yeast in a starter
« on: January 26, 2012, 07:17:09 AM »
I am still playing with my process a bit for making and timing my starters.  However, what works me now is to pitch my yeast cold.  I whirlpool chill using ice, so my wort gets down to 40-45 F.  This lets me dump the cold break before going into the fermenter.  I also crash my yeast starter in the fridge a day or two before brew day so that I can dump the liquid and just harvest the yeast.  Since both are cold, I just pitch and let them warm up to ferment temperatures together.  I have not noticed an increased lag time; if anything, the lag time is decreased. 

Often with microbes, the temperature differential is as or more important than the absolute temperature. I believe them sensing increasing temperature over a wide range in a sugar rich environment impacts them more than whether you ultimately hold at 67, 68 or 69 F (or wherever you ferment) in terms of progressing through the lag phase and initial growth phase.   

41
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Boiling starters in a flask
« on: January 10, 2012, 09:49:52 AM »
The problem I had with simply reducing heat is that I have a ceramic cooktop stove and the elements cycle on/off at low settings. Even at vary low settings the flask would boil over when the element cycled on.

Mine is a ceramic top too, and I don't have any problems.  Try moving it off to the side.  Also, how full is your flask?  I always limit mine to 1/2 to 2/3 full. 

42
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Is lagering necessary?
« on: January 06, 2012, 05:25:30 AM »
If you can hold 10C during fermentation, then you will have a nice, clean lager character to your beers.  Also, 4C is plenty for long term lagering and storage.  Absolute temperatures are more important than duration for commercial lagering, but the only advantage to near freezing temps is that yeast flocculate faster. Time is money, and going colder is better than waiting.  With the temps you described, you should be able to make yourself some tasty lagers.

43
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Second wind in the primary
« on: January 05, 2012, 09:10:58 AM »
It''s equally possible that it's dissolved CO2 coming out of solution.
I think Denny is right.

44
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: Ferment 3 gal batch in a 5 gal bucket????
« on: January 05, 2012, 09:08:07 AM »
No problems with extra headspace.  Even though there is a CO2 layer above the beer after fermentation, given enough time it will diffuse and mix with ambient air.  If you let it sit too longer after fermentation shuts down, then you risk oxidation.  Just be on top of the process and get it kegged or bottled as soon as you are able. 

45
Yeast and Fermentation / Re: WL833 tastes sweet
« on: January 02, 2012, 08:23:46 AM »
Could you just be tasting that classic 'pils sweetness' you get from pils base recipes? 

Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 7