Show Posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.


Messages - mabrungard

Pages: 1 ... 50 51 [52] 53 54 ... 57
766
I'm very leery of using any minerals or chemicals that aren't intended for human consumption.  Even though the DampRid folks don't list anything hazardous on the product's MSDS, that does not mean that there are not minute toxins or hazards in the substance.  The EPA definition of "hazardous" is not quite what a normal person would exclude since that product is not intended for human consumption.  Lead is not hazardous, but I'm pretty sure that most brewers would not want to consume any. 

A product called Pickle Crisp is calcium chloride and is available were canning supplies are sold.  It is intended for human consumption.  The same is true for Pickling Lime.  Pickling Lime is also known as Slaked Lime or calcium hydroxide.  One pickling lime brand is Mrs. Wages. 

Bill may need to have a care package sent from the states if there are no vendors around carrying these items.  The base commissary might actually carry canning supplies, so that is worth a look.  Calcium chloride is carried by every good homebrew shop that I've been in, so I'm hoping that a local shop might have it or it could be mail ordered.   

EZwater is OK and usable.  It will do a fine job in calculating concentrations from mineral additions.

767
Ingredients / Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« on: January 05, 2011, 02:43:47 PM »
BrewArk makes a good point and doesn't use chalk, but there are brewers that do use it and are expecting it to do its job.  My point was to make sure that brewers are educated about chalk use and the limitations that some water programs had to make to accomodate chalk's limited solubility. 

Brewing water programs are using new information and making it a little more feasible for brewers to actually come close to an intended mash pH.  I noticed that EZ Water now includes grain acidity in predicting mash pH.  I am also finalizing a program that takes grain acidity a little further in assessing mashing pH.  In either case, the hope is to give regular brewers tools that they can rely on to predict their mash conditions and not absolutely have to have a pH meter. 

768
Equipment and Software / Re: March pump stir plate alternative
« on: January 05, 2011, 09:13:02 AM »
Definitely get a big stir bar, 2 inch or plus. I use a 3 inch in a 6L flask.

I'm not really sure the March pump will be able to do what you're asking.  And on top of that, the rotation speed will almost certainly be too high.  You can actually throw the stir bar if you spin too fast.  I don't think a reostat will be able to turn down the power enough to work correctly. 

769
As Jeff mentioned, the water profiles listed in various places in print and the web can be incorrect and do not always provide a balance in ionic charges.  The Dublin profile listed on that Beersmith site is a case in point.  Either the bicarbonate needs to be increased to 300 ppm or the calcium needs to be reduced to 85 ppm in order for the ions to balance. 

Regarding recommendations for using historical water profiles.  Brewers should recognize that even back in history, the brewers did do things that altered their brewing water to make it more suitable for brewing.  That included boiling to decarbonate, acid rests, and adding soured beer or wort (saurergut) to the mash. 

I have just finished a research project that evaluated the need for high alkalinity or residual alkalinity in brewing brown and black beers.  Of particular note is that the brewing water alkalinity does not need to be as high as suggested by those historical brewing profiles from dark beer producers such as Dublin, Munich, Edinburgh.  That is in line with the statement above that those old brewers did alter their water. 

Some of you may recall that I proposed a relationship between beer color and residual alkalinity some months ago (RA = SRM x 4.5).  I proposed that equation in response to some other color vs RA relationships that had been published in some software and nomographs that vastly overpredicted the need for alkalinity in dark beers.  Many seasoned BJCP judges had noted that those beers were presenting a 'soda water' taste perception and it was probably from the over application of alkalinity in those beers.  Well I can now state that not only were those previous RA/SRM relationships incorrect, my formula is too aggressive too.  You don't need that much alkalinity when brewing dark beers. 

Unfortunately, the non-linearity between beer color and alkalinity requirements make it impossible to propose a single equation or nomograph to correlate color and RA.  The excellent research by Kai Troester is the basis of that finding and interested brewers should take the time to understand the way acidity varies in classes of malts such as crystal malts, roast malts, base malts, and acid malt. 

So to provide a recommendation to this brewer's original question, I offer the following recommendation for a Dublin water that would contain enough alkalinity to buffer the mash pH into an appropriate range while mimicing the original Dublin profile. 

Ca 85 ppm
Mg 4 ppm
Na 12 ppm
SO4 55 ppm
Cl 19 ppm
HCO3 200 ppm

That profile can be achieved by adding 0.25g of gypsum, 0.2g of epsom salt, 0.2g baking soda, 0.2g CaCl2, and 0.4g of pickling lime per gallon of mash water.  Note that chalk is not used since it cannot easily be dissolved in either water or the mash and will not contribute its intended alkalinity to the mash.  At atmospheric pressure, chalk can only provide up to 55 ppm of HCO3 to water and any attempt to over dose the water with chalk will just add to the sediment at the bottom of the mash tun. 

770
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Dornbusch's Advice for Alt?
« on: January 05, 2011, 06:16:56 AM »
I've been a long-term fan of Al Korzonas' Alt recipe that is 89% Munich malt and 11% Aromatic malt with a big charge of Spalt hops at 90 minutes. 

771
Equipment and Software / Re: Electric Alternatives to turkey fryer.
« on: January 04, 2011, 08:23:57 AM »
Controlling a heating element is easy with a PID controller.  But when you're dealing with boiling water, I'm not sure that a PID could properly tell when to throttle the power since the temperature would build to 212F (@ sea-level) and not go any higher.  I suppose that you would set the controller to a set point slightly less than the boiling temp????

I'd appreciate hearing from others knowledgible in this area.

772
Equipment and Software / Re: Electric Alternatives to turkey fryer.
« on: January 04, 2011, 08:18:23 AM »
I am curious about using heat sticks.  I might consider using them in my new basement brewery.

Since the boiling is localized to only around the heating element, do electric heat stick brewers actually monitor the temperature of the wort in the pot to check and confirm that it too is at a near-boiling temperature?  If its not at a near-boiling temp, then the hop isomerization and the off gassing of volatile nasties such as DMS would not be at a typical rate. 

773
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Dornbusch's Advice for Alt?
« on: January 04, 2011, 08:11:55 AM »
As Stan Hieronymus (Brewing with Wheat, Brew like a Monk) put it...he is not an expert, but he took the time to find out from experts in authoring his books.

So, I wouldn't be surprised that Dornbusch doesn't really have any expertise either, but I would hope that he took the initiative to consult experts in writing his book. 

My hat's off to those who do take the time and effort to author good work.  But as we know, the state of the art moves on.  The problem is that there aren't many forums such as this to help dispell the missinformation that still exists until an updated edition comes out. 

774
Ingredients / Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« on: January 03, 2011, 10:29:44 AM »
Excellent information!

Not a surprising result.  I'm cautious about adding lye, since it could boost the sodium content too high.  But on second thought, the amount added for pH adjustment would be tiny.  The next question is where would you get food grade lye from?  I know I can get food grade lime as pickling lime. 

Very interesting.

775
Matt,

Most of the salts will dissolve in the mashing water prior to adding the grain.  Of course the chalk isn't going to dissolve, but if the water is mixed and the chalk is in suspension, its just as good as adding directly to the mash.  Sorry to hear that you dumped your grain.

776
General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Do I need to use BKF to re-passivate?
« on: December 31, 2010, 03:44:10 PM »
This is something that John is expert in.  Go with the pro.

777
Ingredients / Re: Palmer Spreadsheet Error
« on: December 30, 2010, 10:32:59 AM »
The problem with chalk additions in some water programs is that they are calculating the amount of carbonate added to water with the chalk addition.  Since chalk is calcium carbonate, it seems perfectly logical that the carbonate number is the correct one.  Unfortunately, carbonate chemistry is a little more complicated than that.

First of all, in the typical drinking water pH range, carbonate (CO3) will mostly not exist in the water.  It naturally converts to the bicarbonate (HCO3) form in the typical drinking water pH range.  Many of you will recognize that the carbonate species exist in different ionic forms depending upon the pH of the system.  It exists as carbonic acid (H2CO3) at low pH, as bicarbonate (HCO3) at middle pH, and as carbonate (CO3) at high pH.  For the most part, our brewing is in the middle pH range and bicarbonate is prevalent.

The most important reason that we need to convert the carbonate concentration to its equivalent bicarbonate concentration is that the formula that we're using to calculate alkalinity assumes that everything is in the bicarbonate form.  So we have to convert our alkalinity producers to their equivalent bicarbonate concentration.

Since the milliequivalent concentration of the carbonate species will not change when they transform to its various forms, we can calculate what the equivalent amount of each species (in mg/L) is as it transforms and find that numerical conversion value.

Some important chemistry information:

milliequivalents per liter is equal to the ionic concentration divided by the ion's equivalent weight.  

The ion's equivalent weight is equal to the ion's molecular weight divided by the ion's charge.

For Carbonate, the eq wt = 60 mg/mole divided by its charge (-2), or 30 mg/mole
For Bicarbonate, the eq wt = 61 mg/mole divided by its charge (-1), or 61 mg/mole

I'm going to add another alkalinity ion for something else I'll present later.  The equivalent weight of hydroxide (OH) is 17 mg/mole divided by it charge (-1), or 17 mg/mole.

Since the milliequivalents per liter do not change when we convert from one form of carbonate ion to another, we can calculate what that numerical conversion from carbonate to bicarbonate is.  That conversion is simply the ratio of the equivalent weights of the ions.  In the case of carbonate and bicarbonate, that ratio is 61/30 or 2.033333333.  To convert a calculated concentration of carbonate ion to its actual concentration of bicarbonate ion at the typical drinking water pH range would be to multiply the carbonate concentration by 2.033.  

So for a typical 1 gram per gallon chalk addition, the calcium concentration would be 105.7 ppm.  But instead of the 158.4 ppm carbonate concentration, the bicarbonate concentration is actually 322.3 ppm (158.4 x 2.033).  Note that the mEq/L are equal:  158.4/30 = 5.28  and 322.3/61 = 5.28.  

The real problem with chalk is that it just isn't that soluble in water.  There are entire book chapters written on the subject of calcium carbonate solubility since it is critical to life and critical to potable water supply engineers like myself.  

At standard temperature and pressure (STP), the solubility of chalk is about 47 mg/L, which is not that much.  That equates to less than 0.2 grams of chalk in each gallon of water.  Those of you that use chalk know that it just doesn't seem to dissolve in water.  You can bubble air through the water to get it to dissolve faster, but if you're working with air at atmospheric pressure, then you're only going to get that 47 mg/L into the water.  That amount of chalk provides about 55 ppm HCO3 or about 45 ppm alkalinity, which may not be enough for the typical brown or black beer mash.

Work by Troester and DeLange have confirmed that chalk solubility in the mash isn't much higher.  Apparently, the acids present in the mash are pretty weak and cannot provide the protons needed to dissolve the chalk.  It takes extra effort in the form of adding CO2 to the water to get the chalk to dissolve in water.  

I have done tests with water and chalk added at a rate of 2 grams per gallon and have easily dissolved it when I added CO2 to the headspace of the soda bottle and pressurized to over 15 psi with a carbonator cap.  This improves the solubility by over 10 times, but that may not really be practical if your dealing with water needed for a 14 barrel mash.
  
To add alkalinity to mashing water we can also add baking soda (NaHCO3), but then we have to worry about a practical limit for sodium (150ppm, but it should really be kept below 100 ppm).  

So, we need another option to add alkalinity to their mashing water.

Pickling Lime (aka Slaked Lime) is calcium hydroxide (Ca(OH)2).  It is very soluble in water and does not face the solubility problems that chalk has. But I haven't seen anyone discussing how it should be added.

We need to go through the same milliequivalent/liter game that we went through with the carbonate/bicarbonate transformation. The ratio of equivalent weights between bicarbonate and hydroxide is 61/17 = 3.588.  

Therefore, the concentration of calcium added when 1 gram of pickling lime is added to 1 gallon of water is 142.8 ppm and the concentration of hydroxide is 121.1 ppm.  Converting that hydroxide concentration to its equivalent bicarbonate concentration is: 121.1 (ppm OH) x 3.588 = 434.7 ppm.  

As you might expect with a strong base like pickling lime, it has pretty high alkalinity producing potential.  When its added in the small amounts needed to control mash pH, it doesn't really convert into bicarbonate in the mash.  It just consumes any acid it comes in contact with, converting those OH ions directly into H2O when an acid (H) is encountered.  Since Alkalinity is defined as the measure of the capacity of a water to neutralize strong acid, it doesn't matter that the alkalinity is from carbonate, bicarbonate, or hydroxide.  But since our brewing chemistry analyses are based alkalinity calculated from bicarbonate content, it is important to perform the conversion of hydroxide to its equivalent bicarbonate concentration.  

Since the issue of errors in some water calculation programs was the genesis of this discussion, I should end with its discussion.  Those programs assume the carbonate concentration can be treated as a reduced concentration of bicarbonate.  Considering the limited solubility of chalk, its not a bad assumption.  Unfortunately, the severely limited solubility of chalk make even that assumption to optimistic unless the brewer is going to dissolve the necessary quantity of chalk under CO2 pressurization.  In addition, if the brewer does actually use CO2 to dissolve the chalk in the water, then the alkalinity calculated for the chalk addition would definitely be wrong with those water calculation programs. The real solution to adding alkalinity (without too much sodium) is to get brewers up to speed with using pickling lime for adding mash alkalinity and forget about chalk.

I trust this information will be helpful.    

778
The money is already spent.  I'd brew with it.  The chalk won't be a big deal since it won't dissolve.  The magnesium is a concern, but I'm not sure that its at a level that would induce a laxative effect.  

If you have pH monitor capability and acid, I would have that at the ready to see if that could help.  Unfortunately, the chalk will dissolve and consume the acid and you may not get any benefit from the acid.  

Its a shame you weren't adding minerals to your mash water and not the grains.  I've never done it the way you are.  Water is cheap and a mistake is no big deal (unless you have to run out and buy more water).  

I might back off the bittering level a little since the water additions may make the beer a little harsh.  The other thing you should remember is that you can always brew another batch that could be blended with this one to even out some faults.  

779
All Grain Brewing / Re: Some basic knowledge help, please.
« on: December 29, 2010, 11:08:43 AM »
I do typically mash out with my RIMS to 168F, so my mash is already hot.  I suppose I shouldn't play with the higher temperatures because of that?

780
Equipment and Software / Re: wort aeration with perforated pipe
« on: December 29, 2010, 10:17:43 AM »
Kai,

You sure have neat tools.  I haven't even thought about springing for an O2 meter. 

It looks like you really need to make a venturi tube to be effective with this method.  I've noticed that in the wine world, there is a aeration device called a Vinturi that draws air into the wine as its poured into the glass.  I find its quite effective at aerating from a taste perspective, but have no idea what sort of O2 level it can create.  I don't see it really working in a homebrew situation. 

I pump my wort and use an in-line stone w/ O2.  The aerator is at the inlet end of my 25 foot long transfer hose and that gives the wort time to assimilate the oxygen and reduce foaming.   That has been effective in my opinion.  Too bad I don't have a meter to check the results with.  My address is....     ;-)



Pages: 1 ... 50 51 [52] 53 54 ... 57