Messages

421

Yeast and Fermentation / Re: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?

« on: July 16, 2010, 11:14:07 AM »

This is W206, right? Same as Wyeast 2206?

WLP820 and Wyeast 2206 are NOT the same.  IMHO, none of the White Labs or Wyeast strains are exactly the same anymore, regardless of what you might read in various sources.  They might have started from the same ancestor (did they? I didn't look it up), but each side has mutated so many hundreds if not millions of times over the past 30 or 40 years that they are quite different now.  Still similar, MAYBE, but definitely not the same.

I mean, think about it -- Nottingham, WLP001, Wyeast 1056, and US-05 supposedly all originated from the same stuff way back when.  Are they the same now?  No.  They might be very similar, and under most circumstances can be used interchangeably, to a point... but many brewers would agree that they are NOT identical.  US-05 seems to attenuate the most, while Nottingham gives some people a mysterious "tartness".  I don't like WLP001, while another guy loves it but despises Wyeast 1056..... these are all similar, but not identical.  Don't believe me?  Try splitting a batch of a wimpy light beer with low hop character sometime, using two or three or four of the different brands that are supposedly "all the same thing".  I'll bet you a zillion dollars that the resulting beers are similar, yes, similar, BUT, also detectably quite different.

422

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: A question about the BJCP Judging philosophy?

« on: July 16, 2010, 11:02:03 AM »

I agree with much of what Mike just said.  However, I will judge your homebrews for free.  AND, I give better feedback than everyone else. 

But really.... I take things even one step further, based on a few assumptions.  Number one, there are often going to be a few dud "judges", whether ranked, non-ranked, or otherwise, where you can basically throw their feedback in the trash because that's how much good it will do you.  On the flip side, there are many judges -- also ranked, non-ranked, and otherwise -- who actually do a phenomenal job.  It is usually very easy for the entrant to determine for himself/herself which feedback is great versus which is garbage.  And of course, the majority of judges fall somewhere in between and are more mediocre, which is just fine -- what more can a realist ask for.  But there is obviously no use trying to get this spectrum of judges to come to any consolidated consensus and only fill out one form!  I would be very much against that -- in fact, I would quit the BJCP on the spot if they ever pushed in that direction.  The fact is, when you force consensus, either one side will quickly give in to the others' insistence, or they'll get into a fistfight.  (Sounds like politics, doesn't it?!)  As I see it, neither result is beneficial to the entrant in any way.  As an entrant, just decide for yourself which feedback you can use, and which you cannot.  No use trying to solve world hunger.  Just accept it as fact that some judges suck, or have bad days, and move on.

One more word of advice -- If you really want to know if your beer is to style, make sure you enter at least 3, if not more, BJCP-sanctioned competitions.  Then, upon receipt of the feedback, don't hang onto the duds and average all the scores together!  To do that, you wouldn't be fair to yourself.  Simply throw out the duds, then take the rest of the mediocre-to-good feedback while the getting is good, and go ahead and average those scores together.  That's what I do.  I actually hang onto the duds but keep them in a separate pile as examples of how NOT to judge.  Might come in handy one day.  Or not.  Good for a laugh at least.

423

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: A question about the BJCP Judging philosophy?

« on: July 16, 2010, 04:25:01 AM »

Informally, I've described the upper scoring ranges for beer as follows:

34-36 Tasty, but trivial flaws. Equivalent to most craft-brews.
37-40 Superior. No obvious flaws. Better than most craft-brews.
41-45 Outstanding. World class. Angels sing when you drink this beer.
46-49 World Champion. National Best of Show winner. Angels sing and a beam of heavenly light shines down when you drink this beer.
50      Unique. When you open this beer, the heavenly choir sings, the skies are illuminated in holy light, the finger of God points down at the beer, and a booming celestial voice proclaims, "That one."

This is so very true, I think.  Thanks for the breakdown.  It might be really helpful to folks entering their first couple of competitions.

424

Yeast and Fermentation / Re: WLP 820 rate of Fermentation?

« on: July 13, 2010, 05:14:48 AM »

Sorry to be the bearer of an unfavorable opinion, but WLP820 is terrible stuff.  I brewed several batches with it before determining that I won't ever use it again.  Even when it does finish properly, it finishes at relatively high gravity and doesn't taste as awesome as other lager yeasts.  Bottom line is that there are dozens of other good lager yeasts out there -- why they still sell WLP820 with its finicky, unpredictable, and underattenuating nature, I do not know.

If I were you, I'd throw in some yeast energizer to get this batch moving.  It might help.  It's worked wonders for a lot of my beers.  Alternatively, you could make a big yeast starter with a different yeast and pitch the new yeast.  This might help even more.

425

All Things Food / Re: Malted Barley Ice Cream

« on: July 13, 2010, 05:09:26 AM »

Mashing in warm milk might work, but you'd save yourself trouble and expense by simply making regular ice cream but replace some of the sugar with malt extract.  If you mash in cream, you will waste a lot of the cream that gets soaked up in the grain, unrecoverable -- if it will even mash at all.

426

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: A question about the BJCP Judging philosophy?

« on: July 10, 2010, 06:56:53 AM »

Dave - while your comments are YOUR comments, you do the entrant a disservice to not work to a consensus score. The goal is to evaluate every beer in the flight the same way and for the flight to be able to stand alone. If you (or your fellow judge) is not working to achieve a consensus score within 7 points (3 in my world) then you aren't giving all the beers in the flight adequate attention. Like it or not, you and I if on a flight together would sit at the table until we reached a consensus score which was acceptable.

Mike, of course we need to TRY to reach a consensus.  90+% of the time, this is very easy to do.  I don't know if I've ever had an instance where I could not easily and reasonably reach consensus with another judge, but I'm certain that it does happen often enough where one guy finally gives up because he loses the war of wills.  There are times when consensus is very difficult to achieve, and who's to say which judge is right or wrong?  THAT is what bugs me.

My primary concern is that this turns into a battle of whose schwartz is longer than the other's, when in fact, it is pretty close to a 50/50 chance that the guy with the shorter one is right, and the longer one is wrong.  I'll give you a specific scenario, based on what so often happens in a real competition -- First, let's say that in any other universe, if you had 100 certified judges, who were completely independent and without consensus or bias, and took the overall average score for a particular beer, the true average score for this beer is 32.  The scores of those 100 judges actually ranged from somewhere around 20 to 40, but the real score should be 32.  So, then, move back to the real world, in a real competition, and pick any one of those certified judges, and pair him up with an apprentice who might really know a lot about that particular style, or might not.  So then the apprentice judge gives this beer (which deserves a 32) a 29 -- not bad for being in close range to the "true" score -- and the other judge, who happens to be a National rank, decides that it is a 21 for whatever reason -- maybe he has a head cold, or he's drunk from two previous flights of Belgian strongs, or whatever.  My concern is that the apprentice guy will very likely feel pressured into lowering his score to a 25 or so, whether self-induced or by the National; when in reality, he was right on at a 29!  By forcing the two judges to come to a consensus to some arbitrary range, it forced the score in the WRONG direction!!  I feel this happens VERY often, FAR too often -- it's virtually a 50/50 chance!!!  How is this doing anyone any service?!?!

It is easy to insist on changing someone else's score when you are of higher rank than the other guy.  Please take this into consideration -- just because your schwartz is longer, doesn't mean you are omniscient.  I am not directing this at you personally -- I have zero reason to doubt that you are anything but an excellent judge.  But surely you will agree that there are judges out there who are very pretentious and stubborn, while there are infinite others who may have very little experience in BJCP, but that doesn't mean they are complete morons either!  In fact many of the inexperienced guys may have better palates than the Nationals.

Schwartz ain't everything.  Peace, out.

427

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: A question about the BJCP Judging philosophy?

« on: July 09, 2010, 05:34:06 PM »

I am a Recognized BJCP judge, and I for one ABHOR the idea of being virtually forced to change a score based on an arbitrary requirement to be within 7 or 5 or 3 points of another judge, who may have a lot more or a lot less experience -- doesn't matter.  Everyone should be entitled to their own opinion, unadulterated, then let the receiver of the scoresheets decide for himself/herself which judge is right on and which he/she does not agree with.  Better yet -- get a third and even fourth opinion if there is a broad difference of opinion that cannot be resolved.

I feel it is most wise to score each beer on your own without discussion, then spend a few minutes comparing notes to see if there is something you missed or to see if maybe you scored a little too low or too high.  That much is reasonable.  But also, don't let anyone convince you that you scored incorrectly and that "surely you can taste that diacetyl" or DMS or whatever, even if you know in your heart that you can't pick it up in the slightest.  Be honest!  Don't let anyone tell you that YOUR score is wrong!  You own it!  You sign your name to it -- no one else does!  Any changes must be because YOU realized that you want to change your score, NOT because of some arbitrary range rule.  To be coerced into changing a score because others tell you that their opinion matters more than your own constitutes LYING in my book if you do change that score.

I believe this very firmly.  I am a man of integrity.  And like most judges, I am well educated on beer styles and have tasted more than my share.  This is a case where sometimes judges just need to agree to disagree.

428

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: New to Homebrewing

« on: July 02, 2010, 03:10:21 PM »

The secret (well it's really not a secret at all!) to making a good witbier is the coriander, which provides all the orange flavor you will be looking for.  You don't even really need to add orange peel to the beer at all -- the coriander does all the work for you.  I use anywhere from 0.5 to 1 ounce, depending how much orange flavor I want, in the last 10 minutes of the boil.  If you do add orange peel, add it for its bittering qualities, not to make the beer taste like orange.  I know it seems odd, but... that's what my experience tells me.

429

Beer Recipes / Re: Harp

« on: June 29, 2010, 01:29:16 PM »

The consensus?  Really?  I hadn't heard about this yet.  I guess I've been using the pH 5.2 stuff for nothing then.  Although, it seems to work for me -- at least, it's better than when I don't use it.  I don't test pH in every batch, but I did for a couple of years, and it appeared to get me into the right range.  Maybe it's a gimmick, or a placebo??

430

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: New to Homebrewing

« on: June 29, 2010, 01:17:18 PM »

I'm a chemical engineer myself, plus I love to cook and love being creative, so I know exactly what you mean about homebrewing being the perfect hobby.  I started out with the same enthusiasm as you, and now I've been brewing for 11 years already.  Time flies...  If you stick with it and are truly interested, you will learn a lot along your journey.  You can start out making pretty good beer, but as your experience grows you will become capable of making better beer than anything you can buy or that your buddies can make.

Here are some things to help get you started on the right track, based on my experience.  Some of these have already been answered above, but I'll go ahead and say the same things in my own words because I've already drafted it and I sometimes don't know how to shut the hell up.

First of all, you'll want to get that fermentation temperature down by any means possible!  You can make some decent beers at temperatures above 70 F, but not without risk of being very fruity, alcoholic, and causing major headaches (literally).  If you can shoot for fermentation temperature of 65 F, with an absolute maximum of 70 F (okay for most ales, but not lagers), you will be much happier with your final product.  Stick with ales for your first couple years.  Lagers are a whole 'nother beast.

If you can tune your A/C at least another 5 degrees lower, it won't solve the problem completely, but will help get you much closer to where you need to be.  You can cool it down even more in many other ways.  It could require some labor and ingenuity, but one fairly obvious method is to modify a little dorm fridge and add a temperature controller to get you down into the 60s (or even lower).  There are details of such products elsewhere on the various homebrewing forums, and I haven't done it myself, so I won't comment further.
 
But even easier - If your relative humidity cooperates, you can cool your fermenter very cheaply and effectively through evaporative cooling - set it in the coolest corner of your apartment (wherever that may be), cover with a soaking wet t-shirt, set in a small tub a couple inches deep with water, and blow a fan on it.  Check the t-shirt and tub every 12 hours or so and make sure it stays moist with a couple inches of water in the tub to allow a wicking effect.  In my experience, this wet t-shirt and fan method should lower your fermentation temperature by around 5 degrees, maybe a tad more.  Some people put ice in the tub as well, but my scientific mind is not convinced that this really has much effect.  An alternative method, though, might be to immerse the entire fermenter in a tub of ice water, but you would need to add more ice every couple of hours, which is probably not the best means of temperature control, but maybe it would work.  I just really like the plain old t-shirt and fan method - cheap and effective.

I would NOT add ice straight into the fermenter, because it could harbor wild yeast and bacteria that could harm your beer.  It is not so easy to sanitize ice - you cannot boil it, for obvious reasons!

There are many ways to get to your desired volume.  You can indeed do a concentrated boil.  I did so for many years and made great beer with it.  However, boiling the entire volume will result in lighter color and less caramelly flavor.  So it also sort of depends on what style you are making and what flavors you want.  If making a stout, obviously you don't care about darkening or deep malt flavors.  But if making a cream ale, you probably don't want it to turn out brown and caramelly.  So take it into consideration.

Best of luck to you.  We are a good, smart bunch of guys here and will respond pretty quickly to any questions.

431

Beer Recipes / Re: Harp

« on: June 28, 2010, 08:54:29 PM »

Well gosh... I like Harp as well, so while I haven't brewed this yet, I just went ahead and took a first stab at designing a recipe for us.  Keeping it nice and simple -- I think the real key would be to use English or Irish ingredients, and a clean malty lager yeast.  So how does this sound?

Harp Clone Attempt
5 gallons

OG=1.049
ABV=4.9%
IBU=17
SRM=2.7

8 lb English Pilsner malt
0.5 lb cane sugar
0.75 oz Kent Goldings (5.5% alpha, 60 minutes)
Wyeast 2042 Danish Lager yeast

Make a big yeast starter in advance.  Need to add salts to hit Dublin water -- this is very important.  And then the pH won't be low enough so add some of that pH 5.2 stuff.  Do a standard single infusion mash for at least 40 minutes at about 149 F, boil 90 minutes to minimize DMS, ferment at about 50 F for 2 weeks, lager at 30-something for 3 more weeks.  Carbonate in the mid-range for the style.  It's all good.

Someday I might brew this.  So easy, yet so delicious.  If you get to it first, let me know how it turns out.  Good luck.

432

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Is a good, low ABV IPA possible?

« on: June 26, 2010, 07:14:11 PM »

Yeah -- it's called American pale ale.     You can pretty much put as much hops as you want into a plain ole pale ale these days, make it just like an IPA with tons of hop flavor and IBUs, and just keep the gravity low.  It's all good.  People will drink it -- maybe even love it.  Go for it.

433

Extract/Partial Mash Brewing / Re: Krausen after 2 weeks?

« on: June 25, 2010, 07:45:25 PM »

This is very very common with Belgian yeasts and wheat beers.  The krausen on my Belgian dubbel just took 3 weeks to fall.  You can take a gravity reading anyway if you want to.  It might be done fermenting.  Then wait 3 or 4 days, and check gravity again to check for doneness.  If the gravity reading stays the same both times, it's done, and you can rack out from under the krausen without any further issues.  It's just a really stubborn krausen.  Seems odd, but really it's not.  Kolsch yeast also does the same thing.

434

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Corn vs. Cane

« on: June 25, 2010, 09:50:03 AM »

By weight, the cane sugar would contribute about 5% more gravity, alcohol, CO2, etc. They should both ferment out 100%, so no flavor to speak of. Cane sugar's cheaper.

This.

Corn sugar is dumb.  Save a few bucks with cane sugar.  And don't worry about making invert sugar or saccharides or anything like that.  It's all a bunch of hooey.  All you need to know is that lactose and maltodextrin sugars are not fermentable.  Everything else is.  And yeast doesn't care much what kind of sugar it is.  They'll eat it no matter how expensive or cheap it is, and the flavor differences are negligible.

435

General Homebrew Discussion / Re: Lagering on or off yeast?

« on: June 18, 2010, 07:45:38 AM »

As an experiment, I left my last Vienna lager in primary for over 2 months.  Plastic bucket.  I did the primary and the lagering in the same bucket.  It turned out just fine -- in fact it scored a 2nd place ribbon in competition.  http://buzzbrewclub.org/wp/brew-off/16th-boneyard-brewoff/

No worries.

Of course, maybe I just got really lucky.  But I do think the fears of autolysis and whatnot are FAR overblown.  At least for homebrewers, where we don't have zillion-barrel systems and several FEET thick of yeast settled out on the bottom of the fermenter.