IPA's and Caramel Malts

[mmitchem]

If you want more 'subdued' malt profile - why don't you just add less character malt?

That is an option for sure, LOL. I only add about 6oz in mine for a 5 gallon batch so I am probably okay. Just a general question. I would venture to say that the water profile might be able to tilt the perception of the beer flavor in an instance like this.

Although I do agree that less is often more

[mabrungard]

In your opinion, can brewing water additions such as calcium sulfate and possibly even mash pH adjustment (in the 5.2-ish range) help to enhance the hop flavor and make the malt profile more subdued in these heavy-crystal IPA's?

I don't feel that water chemistry has that much effect, although reducing the wort pH would thin the body perception and make it a little more tart.  But another effect of depressing the wort pH is that hop expression is also reduced.  That is counterproductive in PAs and IPAs. 

The best way to reduce malt flavor seems to be employing a narrower malt profile.

[mmitchem]

Good info Martin. I figured that water adjustment would only go so far in this scenario, but it never hurts to throw it out there, right?

Just keep the main focus of the beer up front - the hops. No fancy malt bill needed. Just some base malt and enough crystal for color and a touch of complexity. 

[kylekohlmorgen]

If you want more 'subdued' malt profile - why don't you just add less character malt?

That is an option for sure, LOL. I only add about 6oz in mine for a 5 gallon batch so I am probably okay. Just a general question. I would venture to say that the water profile might be able to tilt the perception of the beer flavor in an instance like this.

Although I do agree that less is often more

Just bustin' ur chops a bit.

For hoppy beers, I tend to adjust my water profile to accentuate dryness and sharper, firmer bitterness (high sulfate, low chloride). If you go the other way, I think the bitterness is flabby and coating, and the hop character is muddled.

I'm with erockph on using high-quality base malts to layer in malt-type flavors: Munich, Vienna, MO, Pils, or a combination. My favorite IPA recipe uses half Munich I and Half German Pils, with a touch of Victory and table sugar (or honey, if I've got some).

[mmitchem]

Just bustin' ur chops a bit.

I hear ya brother, all good

I agree on all accounts. I get my mash pH around 5.5 with some phosphoric acid and also drop some gypsum into the mash to really make the hops come to life. The chloride to sulfate ratio is what I pay the closest attention to, and I tend to use it lightly (the less is more thing again).

I am a huge fan of blending munich malt with another high quality 2-row malt. It really gives the malt a kick. Clean and dry - fo sho!

[a10t2]

The chloride to sulfate ratio is what I pay the closest attention to

Here we go again...

[mmitchem]

The chloride to sulfate ratio is what I pay the closest attention to

Here we go again...

Hahaha, ok ok...reeling it back in

[denny]

Then there is Gordon Strong's statement that he thinks Maris Otter does not go well with "C" hops. Read that on in print not too long ago and chuckled, but please don't ask me where that was in print.

I completely agree with Gordon.

I can't imagine making an APA/AIPA without some crystal malt, usually on the 10% range.  It's not about any single ingredient, it's about how you use an ingredient and your own tastes.

[hopfenundmalz]

Then there is Gordon Strong's statement that he thinks Maris Otter does not go well with "C" hops. Read that on in print not too long ago and chuckled, but please don't ask me where that was in print.

I completely agree with Gordon.

I can't imagine making an APA/AIPA without some crystal malt, usually on the 10% range.  It's not about any single ingredient, it's about how you use an ingredient and your own tastes.

The reason I said I chuckled a little was that:
1 There are the people that have the opinion that MO is the best malt for anything anytime.
2 Gordon can taste things that my palate is not good enough to pick up. Really.

I am not disagreeing with Gordon on this. He was just the first to point it out that I know of.

One of the local breweries makes a really good IIPA named DRIPA. Double Rice IPA. Rice in an IPA, what is this world coming to? Gold in the 2012 WBC in the AIPA category, as it drinks like a hoppy AIPA, so they entered it there.

[denny]

Jeff, years ago I came to the conclusion that I didn't care for MO for APA/AIPA.  For my tastes, I find the malt flavor just doesn't complement the styles.  I, too, know of many people who feel it's the perfect base malt for ant style.  Not for me, thanks!  FWIW, I have an APA on tap now that's pils malt, flaked maize, and light candi syrup.  Hopped to about .9:1 BU:GU and dry hopped with Zythos.

[hopfenundmalz]

I used flaked rice in my last IPA, and the base malt was Rahr 2-row. Next one will use flaked maize with a base of 6-row (Ballantine IPA clone), and some sugar.

Of course British Pale Ale malt (even MO), some crystal malt (<5%), hops like EKG and Target, and high SO4 levels, and a British Ale yeast work pretty good.

[mmitchem]

I made a Meantime IPA clone a little while back with a similar bill Jeff. Really awesome English IPA. Making me thirsty right now!

[bluesman]

I think it's a personal preference. Some folks like a little more malt in the backbone than others. I think the responses vary from one brewer to the next, and from coast to coast. 

I like them on the drier side for sure, with a fairly supportive malt backbone, but the hop bitterness and hop flavor/aroma absolutely must be fresh and the showcase of the beer. My favorite color for an IPA is in the range of 6-8SRM.

[redbeerman]

Then there is Gordon Strong's statement that he thinks Maris Otter does not go well with "C" hops. Read that on in print not too long ago and chuckled, but please don't ask me where that was in print.

I completely agree with Gordon.

I can't imagine making an APA/AIPA without some crystal malt, usually on the 10% range.  It's not about any single ingredient, it's about how you use an ingredient and your own tastes.

I agree, except the part about agreeing with Gordon.   I use MO in all my IPAs, even with "C" hops.  I use between 5 and 10% crystal malts in most as well.   I like the flavor and balance, but that's to my taste.

[Alewyfe]

Jeff, years ago I came to the conclusion that I didn't care for MO for APA/AIPA.  For my tastes, I find the malt flavor just doesn't complement the styles.  I, too, know of many people who feel it's the perfect base malt for ant style.  Not for me, thanks!  FWIW, I have an APA on tap now that's pils malt, flaked maize, and light candi syrup.  Hopped to about .9:1 BU:GU and dry hopped with Zythos.

And.......share perceptions, please.