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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: wildknight on December 04, 2011, 04:39:46 PM

Title: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: wildknight on December 04, 2011, 04:39:46 PM
When is best to add yeast nutrient?  In the wort boil?  After the wort is cooled?  Only in the starter?  When you pitch yeast?

I ask because of an observation of my starter wort.  I boiled it in a glass flask last time instead of a SS pot, and I notice the wort got very dark.  I know melanoidins form as you boil the wort, but this seemed excessive.  I checked my yeast nutrient, and it has a lot of DAP in it.  I know that people making syrups also use DAP in making dark Belgian candy syrups.  I am wondering if the DAP I added to my starter wort caused the excessive darkening, resulting in the DAP being sequestered into melanoidins and no longer available to the yeast a free nitrogen.  Maybe I should add it at the end of the boil, or once it is cooled? 
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: denny on December 04, 2011, 04:42:58 PM
I have no idea if the DAP caused the darkening, or if the darkening matters at all.  I use Wyeast yeast nutrient in both my starters and the kettle.  I boil my starters for 10 min. with nutrient in the whole time.  In the kettle I use 1/2 tsp. for the last 10 min. per instructions.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: skyler on December 04, 2011, 06:31:57 PM
I do exactly as Denny described, except sometimes I throw the nutrient in at 15 min, for no particular reason.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bo on December 04, 2011, 07:03:10 PM
I feed my yeast fresh wort and they gobble it up.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: DaveR on December 05, 2011, 03:13:25 PM
I oil my starters for 10 min.

It took me a second before I realized it was a typo. At first I thought it was some new technique with which I wasn't aware.  :)

I add the Wyeast powdered nutrient in starters and Servomyces in the boil for most batches. I'm wondering if I really need to use Servomyces or if I can just use the less expensive powdered nutrient instead. I'm not sure what the differences are. I once used them hit and miss. Now I use them all the time. Nutrients do seem to help quite a bit.   
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: morticaixavier on December 05, 2011, 03:40:25 PM
I oil my starters for 10 min.

It took me a second before I realized it was a typo. At first I thought it was some new technique with which I wasn't aware.  :)

I add the Wyeast powdered nutrient in starters and Servomyces in the boil for most batches. I'm wondering if I really need to use Servomyces or if I can just use the less expensive powdered nutrient instead. I'm not sure what the differences are. I once used them hit and miss. Now I use them all the time. Nutrients do seem to help quite a bit.   

I am pretty sure it was a typo but there is a technique, not much held by homebrewers anymore as far as I know, that involves putting olive oil in the starter to provide the yeast with lipids. This allows you to lessen or even skip the aieration step and supposedly increases shelf life. I beleive some large scale pro brewers do use this as it closes up a quality loss door in long term storage/transporation.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bo on December 05, 2011, 04:29:28 PM
I oil my starters for 10 min.

It took me a second before I realized it was a typo. At first I thought it was some new technique with which I wasn't aware.  :)

I add the Wyeast powdered nutrient in starters and Servomyces in the boil for most batches. I'm wondering if I really need to use Servomyces or if I can just use the less expensive powdered nutrient instead. I'm not sure what the differences are. I once used them hit and miss. Now I use them all the time. Nutrients do seem to help quite a bit.   

I am pretty sure it was a typo but there is a technique, not much held by homebrewers anymore as far as I know, that involves putting olive oil in the starter to provide the yeast with lipids. This allows you to lessen or even skip the aieration step and supposedly increases shelf life. I beleive some large scale pro brewers do use this as it closes up a quality loss door in long term storage/transporation.

oil  S/B  boil
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: denny on December 05, 2011, 04:37:50 PM
I oil my starters for 10 min.

It took me a second before I realized it was a typo. At first I thought it was some new technique with which I wasn't aware.  :)

Thanks for pointing that out!  Wouldn't want anyone to think I was talking about olive oil.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: denny on December 05, 2011, 04:40:07 PM
I am pretty sure it was a typo but there is a technique, not much held by homebrewers anymore as far as I know, that involves putting olive oil in the starter to provide the yeast with lipids. This allows you to lessen or even skip the aieration step and supposedly increases shelf life. I beleive some large scale pro brewers do use this as it closes up a quality loss door in long term storage/transporation.

AFAIK, no commercial breweries are actually doing this.  My understanding is that results of the study at New Belgium found a shorter shelf life.  If anyone knows differently, please correct me.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bluesman on December 05, 2011, 04:57:23 PM
I have no idea if the DAP caused the darkening, or if the darkening matters at all.  I use Wyeast yeast nutrient in both my starters and the kettle.  I boil my starters for 10 min. with nutrient in the whole time.  In the kettle I use 1/2 tsp. for the last 10 min. per instructions.

+1 to Denny's method... except I add 1 full tsp to the boil.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: denny on December 05, 2011, 05:05:42 PM
I have no idea if the DAP caused the darkening, or if the darkening matters at all.  I use Wyeast yeast nutrient in both my starters and the kettle.  I boil my starters for 10 min. with nutrient in the whole time.  In the kettle I use 1/2 tsp. for the last 10 min. per instructions.

+1 to Denny's method... except I add 1 full tsp to the boil.

Are you doing 10 gal. batches, Ron?
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bluesman on December 05, 2011, 05:12:38 PM
I have no idea if the DAP caused the darkening, or if the darkening matters at all.  I use Wyeast yeast nutrient in both my starters and the kettle.  I boil my starters for 10 min. with nutrient in the whole time.  In the kettle I use 1/2 tsp. for the last 10 min. per instructions.

+1 to Denny's method... except I add 1 full tsp to the boil.

Are you doing 10 gal. batches, Ron?

1 tsp per 5 gal batch
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: denny on December 05, 2011, 05:13:42 PM
1 tsp per 5 gal batch

What nutrient are you using?  The Wyeast I use recommends 1/2 tsp. per 5 gal.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bluesman on December 05, 2011, 05:16:52 PM
1 tsp per 5 gal batch

What nutrient are you using?  The Wyeast I use recommends 1/2 tsp. per 5 gal.

I'm using Wyeast...I think it's the nutrient blend. I've always used 1 tsp based on a recommendation from JZ.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: denny on December 05, 2011, 06:02:36 PM
1 tsp per 5 gal batch

What nutrient are you using?  The Wyeast I use recommends 1/2 tsp. per 5 gal.

I'm using Wyeast...I think it's the nutrient blend. I've always used 1 tsp based on a recommendation from JZ.

Hmmmm...hadn't heard him say that.  Maybe I'll try that on my next batch and see if I can tell a difference.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bluesman on December 05, 2011, 06:08:25 PM
This is the product.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=15

I noticed Wyeast recommends dissolving in warm water prior to adding to the kettle. I have always just dropped it in without dissolving. I wonder what difference that would make...or not.  :-\
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: denny on December 05, 2011, 09:02:54 PM
This is the product.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=15

I noticed Wyeast recommends dissolving in warm water prior to adding to the kettle. I have always just dropped it in without dissolving. I wonder what difference that would make...or not.  :-\

Yep, that's what I use.  I admit to not dissolving it, either.  Hey, Tom, you following this?  Any thoughts?
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tomsawyer on December 05, 2011, 09:27:22 PM
Wrong "tom" I know, but I add the recommended dosage.  I don't think you want excess nutrient left around after the yeast is done, especially free available nitrogen.  This only provides a more hospitable environment for bacteria.  This is something that is attended to closely by winemakers.  I know the nutrient blend doesn't seem to have much DAP in it but I do believe it has some amino acids.  Plus if theres zinc you might not want a lot of extra of that either.

I think its like taking two vitamins, maybe one thing in there is useful at an elevated concentration but theres other stuff that might be just the opposite.  Since we know you can make good beer without the nutrient to begin with, I wouldn't go with a dose higher than recommended.  They're selling the stuff after all, they have every reason to recommend a higher dose.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tschmidlin on December 05, 2011, 09:28:46 PM
This is the product.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/hb_productdetail.cfm?ProductID=15

I noticed Wyeast recommends dissolving in warm water prior to adding to the kettle. I have always just dropped it in without dissolving. I wonder what difference that would make...or not.  :-\

Yep, that's what I use.  I admit to not dissolving it, either.  Hey, Tom, you following this?  Any thoughts?
I read everything :)

I haven't ever experimented with when is best to add nutrients.  For beers I use nutrients in starters and in the boil.  Boiling nutrients can certainly lead to wort darkening, although there is generally plenty of nitrogen in the wort to lead to some darkening.

I use Servomyces, I'm still working through some 10 hl packs I got a while ago :)  I don't know what they use in the Wyeast blend besides the nutrients, but I would think it would be fine just throwing it into the boil.  Maybe it clumps if you throw it in directly, that's the only reason I can think of to dissolve it first.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tomsawyer on December 05, 2011, 09:44:20 PM
I've never seen it clump.  I believe the stuff has some yeast hulls, as well as zinc, b vitamin or two (niacin and pantothenic acid?), some little bit of DAP and probably some amino acids from yeast extracts.

I assumed adding it late in the boil was to prevent the destruction of the vitamin(s).
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: denny on December 05, 2011, 10:03:40 PM
I read everything :)

I haven't ever experimented with when is best to add nutrients.  For beers I use nutrients in starters and in the boil.  Boiling nutrients can certainly lead to wort darkening, although there is generally plenty of nitrogen in the wort to lead to some darkening.

I use Servomyces, I'm still working through some 10 hl packs I got a while ago :)  I don't know what they use in the Wyeast blend besides the nutrients, but I would think it would be fine just throwing it into the boil.  Maybe it clumps if you throw it in directly, that's the only reason I can think of to dissolve it first.

I knew you'd be there!  What about using 1 tsp. per 5 gal. vs. the recommended 1/2 tsp.?  Any advantage?  Any problems?
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bluesman on December 05, 2011, 10:24:00 PM
I have a message out to Wyeast on this Denny. Hopefully they'll get back to me soon. I'll post their reply.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tschmidlin on December 05, 2011, 10:41:28 PM
I read everything :)

I haven't ever experimented with when is best to add nutrients.  For beers I use nutrients in starters and in the boil.  Boiling nutrients can certainly lead to wort darkening, although there is generally plenty of nitrogen in the wort to lead to some darkening.

I use Servomyces, I'm still working through some 10 hl packs I got a while ago :)  I don't know what they use in the Wyeast blend besides the nutrients, but I would think it would be fine just throwing it into the boil.  Maybe it clumps if you throw it in directly, that's the only reason I can think of to dissolve it first.

I knew you'd be there!  What about using 1 tsp. per 5 gal. vs. the recommended 1/2 tsp.?  Any advantage?  Any problems?
I doubt it makes a noticeable difference either way.  I use it at the recommended dose, but doubling it shouldn't really cause or prevent problems.  I wouldn't worry at all about excess zinc, even at double the level it should all be taken up by the yeast.  The FAN is only marginally more concerning, there isn't likely to be much of that left hanging around either.  There may be a flavor impact at higher rates, I know a guy who swears he can taste nutrient additions in mead.  But it's possible to likely that he's full of crap.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bo on December 05, 2011, 10:42:40 PM
Just throw some dead yeast cells into the boil.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tschmidlin on December 05, 2011, 10:47:53 PM
Just throw some dead yeast cells into the boil.
That will give you some benefit, but it's not as complete as the packaged nutrients like you can get from Wyeast.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tomsawyer on December 05, 2011, 11:52:42 PM
I like to throw live yeast in the boil just to hear them scream.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bo on December 06, 2011, 12:47:55 AM
I like to throw live yeast in the boil just to hear them scream.

I was going say that I use live yeast, but I figured PETY would be all over my ass.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tomsawyer on December 06, 2011, 04:09:32 PM
I'm already on their list because of my high fence yeast ranching operation.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bluesman on December 07, 2011, 01:02:58 AM
I got a response from Wyeast today in reference to the "increased yeast nutrient" dosage question.

Here's their response:

Ron,
 
If you are brewing an adjunct beer or high gravity beer, it may be relevant to go above the recommended dosage rates. If not, you should be fine with the recommended levels.
 
Please let me know if you have other questions.
 

Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories, Inc.
P.O. Box 146
Odell, OR  97044  USA
Phone:  541-354-1335   Fax:  541-354-3449
jess@wyeastlab.com
www.wyeastlab.co
 

Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tubercle on December 07, 2011, 01:27:38 AM
What would the advantages/disadvantages of a 1-a-day vitamin?
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tschmidlin on December 07, 2011, 06:14:05 AM
What's in the vitamin?  The vitamins should be good for the yeast, the zinc too, although I don't know how the dosage might compare to yeast nutrient blends.   I would worry about the dosage and getting it to dissolve well.  Other things in, the vitamin may be a problem, I don't know.

Thinking about crushing up a flintstones and throwing it in?
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bluesman on December 07, 2011, 02:44:51 PM
Some minerals like iron may pose a threat to yeast development and beer flavor. I'm not sure what Vitamen C,D or B would do for the yeast.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tschmidlin on December 07, 2011, 06:02:58 PM
Sorry, I should have said vitamins B, C, and D should be good for the yeast.  I'm basing that on the fact that yeast have proteins that deal with those vitamins (transporters and such).

Good point Ron, I would use one without iron added, although the concentration would probably be low enough to not be noticeable.  The default for vitamins is to not have iron anyway, so you should be fine.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: denny on December 07, 2011, 06:05:12 PM
Years ago there was a discussion on HBD about the benefits of zinc and several people advocated using zinc supplements in the wort.  I tried it but always ended up with off flavors.  I attributed them to not being able to cut the tabs down enough and getting too much zinc.  I have no idea if that's what was really happening, though.  Has anyone tried zinc supplements?
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tschmidlin on December 07, 2011, 06:10:00 PM
Wasn't Housman an advocate for supplements?  If I was going to go that route, I would crush the tablet up really fine, mix it with a sugar, then scoop some up and throw it in the boil.  It's a lot easier to scoop 1/4 tsp of sugar/zn mixture than to try to get a fraction of a gram.

But most pre-packaged yeast nutrients have zinc in them nowadyas, as long as you are buying a blend and not just DAP or hulls.  Both Wyeast Nutrient Blend and Servomyces have zinc.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: robertpreed on December 07, 2011, 06:21:02 PM
Never used yeast nutrients before, but from what I have read and online about the Servomyces and the Wyeast Nutrient Blend, I will try on the next batch.

Anyone have any strong preference on one vs the other?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tubercle on December 07, 2011, 06:30:55 PM
Thinking about crushing up a flintstones and throwing it in?

 Who, me? ::)

 I was just wondering because there are a lot of ingriedents metioned that are helpful to the yeast that are in people vitamin tablets but wasn't sure about the dosage. And like bluesman mentioned, things like iron and such that may be harmful. I heard of this being done but that doesn't make it right in all circumstances, sort of like Beano.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bo on December 07, 2011, 06:39:45 PM
I still maintain that only water, yeast, malt and hops, should go into beer. I've tried nutrients and I can't tell any difference in the final gravity or flavor.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tschmidlin on December 07, 2011, 06:41:00 PM
Thinking about crushing up a flintstones and throwing it in?

 Who, me? ::)

 I was just wondering because there are a lot of ingriedents metioned that are helpful to the yeast that are in people vitamin tablets but wasn't sure about the dosage. And like bluesman mentioned, things like iron and such that may be harmful. I heard of this being done but that doesn't make it right in all circumstances, sort of like Beano.
;D

It's hard to say what some of the other things would do, but let us know if you see a difference when you try it. :)
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bluesman on December 07, 2011, 06:41:58 PM
Thinking about crushing up a flintstones and throwing it in?

 Who, me? ::)

 I was just wondering because there are a lot of ingriedents metioned that are helpful to the yeast that are in people vitamin tablets but wasn't sure about the dosage. And like bluesman mentioned, things like iron and such that may be harmful. I heard of this being done but that doesn't make it right in all circumstances, sort of like Beano.
;D

It's hard to say what some of the other things would do, but let us know if you see a difference when you try it. :)

I vote for Wilma... ;D
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tschmidlin on December 07, 2011, 06:44:47 PM
I still maintain that only water, yeast, malt and hops, should go into beer. I've tried nutrients and I can't tell any difference in the final gravity or flavor.
Nutrients are far more important when you are reusing your yeast than when you are just using store bought yeast every time.

Btw, that Reinheitsgebot stuff is a load of crap.  Make your beer any way you want, but adjuncts and other flavorings can make some damn fine beer.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bo on December 07, 2011, 06:47:36 PM
I still maintain that only water, yeast, malt and hops, should go into beer. I've tried nutrients and I can't tell any difference in the final gravity or flavor.
Nutrients are far more important when you are reusing your yeast than when you are just using store bought yeast every time.

Btw, that Reinheitsgebot stuff is a load of crap.  Make your beer any way you want, but adjuncts and other flavorings can make some damn fine beer.

I only buy yeast every couple of years and maybe not even then. I just don't see the need for nutrients if you maintain adequate pitching rates and proper storage.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tschmidlin on December 07, 2011, 06:55:37 PM
I still maintain that only water, yeast, malt and hops, should go into beer. I've tried nutrients and I can't tell any difference in the final gravity or flavor.
Nutrients are far more important when you are reusing your yeast than when you are just using store bought yeast every time.

Btw, that Reinheitsgebot stuff is a load of crap.  Make your beer any way you want, but adjuncts and other flavorings can make some damn fine beer.

I only buy yeast every couple of years and maybe not even then. I just don't see the need for nutrients if you maintain adequate pitching rates and proper storage.
They are needed because malt doesn't supply everything that yeast require to be as healthy as possible and nutrients will be depleted over time if they aren't replaced.  But if your way is working for you that's cool.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: Hokerer on December 07, 2011, 07:00:08 PM
I ranch my yeast on slants and build up starters as I need them.  I've experienced very noticeable differences since I started adding the Wyeast nutrient to the starter wort that I pressure can.  Most obvious difference is that my starters now experience massive blowoff whereas before it was hard to tell if the starter had fermented.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bluesman on December 07, 2011, 07:26:28 PM
It's good to hear this experience Joe.

Does anyone know if there have been any studies at UC Davis or Siebel on the effect of Zinc and Magnesium on yeast health and development? I know that Wyeast recommends adding nutrients to support yeast development. I haven't done any side-by side blind tastings but I do take Wyeasts recommendation in confidence.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bo on December 07, 2011, 07:35:03 PM
How much is the Wyeast nutrient? Maybe I should give it another try.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bluesman on December 07, 2011, 07:39:05 PM
How much is the Wyeast nutrient? Maybe I should give it another try.

Very cheap.

http://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/839512.htm
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tschmidlin on December 07, 2011, 07:43:50 PM
It's good to hear this experience Joe.

Does anyone know if there have been any studies at UC Davis or Siebel on the effect of Zinc and Magnesium on yeast health and development? I know that Wyeast recommends adding nutrients to support yeast development. I haven't done any side-by side blind tastings but I do take Wyeasts recommendation in confidence.
There is a lot of research on the role of zn and mg, not just for beer.  They are important cofactors for many enzymes.

Yeast is the simplest eukaryotic organism, and is used for a lot of preliminary research to understand our own biology.  It's a well studied system, even with the holes.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: gmwren on December 07, 2011, 09:45:13 PM
Reinheitsgebot, was a tax law that defined what beer was so it could properly be taxed. Hey, we don't pay any tax on homebrew!
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tschmidlin on December 07, 2011, 09:54:47 PM
Reinheitsgebot, was a tax law that defined what beer was so it could properly be taxed. Hey, we don't pay any tax on homebrew!
What was relevant and important to people 500 years ago is not necessarily so now.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: hopfenundmalz on December 08, 2011, 12:56:32 AM
To answer the yeast suppliment question, I use 1/2 of a 15 mg tab for a 10 gallon batch.

As to research/data on Zinc and yeast health, I remember this one.
http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2009/Tobias-Fischborn-NHC2009-Yeast%20nutrition.pdf

Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: bo on December 08, 2011, 02:29:24 AM
Reinheitsgebot, was a tax law that defined what beer was so it could properly be taxed. Hey, we don't pay any tax on homebrew!
What was relevant and important to people 500 years ago is not necessarily so now.

True, but I'll not sway far from the 4 basic ingredients that create such a wonderful liquid.  :P
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: tschmidlin on December 08, 2011, 04:14:34 AM
Reinheitsgebot, was a tax law that defined what beer was so it could properly be taxed. Hey, we don't pay any tax on homebrew!
What was relevant and important to people 500 years ago is not necessarily so now.

True, but I'll not sway far from the 4 basic ingredients that create such a wonderful liquid.  :P
I won't insist that you do ;)  But I'll take a well made wit any day of the week.
Title: Re: Yeast Nutrient
Post by: thcipriani on December 10, 2011, 08:17:43 PM
To answer the yeast suppliment question, I use 1/2 of a 15 mg tab for a 10 gallon batch.

As to research/data on Zinc and yeast health, I remember this one.
http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2009/Tobias-Fischborn-NHC2009-Yeast%20nutrition.pdf



That's interesting, slide 16 mentions the ideal is between .4 and 1ppm zinc in your wort. A while back I had an email exchange with Wyeast about their nutrient (actually about zinc toxicity and starter volume) and they stated, "Adding the nutrient [bc nutrient] at recommended levels will add 0.45 ppm zinc to your wort (that assumes 100% makes it into your fermenter).  I read a journal article that reported toxic effects at 50ppm (a lot)."

Doubling recommended rate (i.e. 1 tsp) may be the best way to ensure that you're getting the minimum without exceeding the maximum 1ppm.