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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: bluesman on January 22, 2010, 01:44:56 am

Title: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on January 22, 2010, 01:44:56 am
I thought it would be beneficial to have this discussion.

From my experience there is a huge smack you in your face hops presence with West Coast IPA's as opposed to a more subdued hop effect with East Coast brews. The West Coast has the convenience of the Pacific Northwest "C" hops (Centennial, Cascade, Chinook and Columbus)  pine needle and grapefruit.

Whereas the East Coast has some European influences with the use of more crystal malts which leads to more body and darker beers. There is also the combining of American and English hops which are less bitter.

Dogfish Head's founder Sam Calagione states that "ounce for ounce I use as many hops as my Pacific Coast counterparts, including extra-bitter American hybrids such as Warrior and Amarillo."

Being an East Coast guy, I find the availability of West Coast beers to be limited but I am always searching for new examples of my favorite style of beer. I love IPA's, with lots of fresh hops.

What's your take on our American IPA's ?
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: beersk on January 22, 2010, 02:34:35 am
Yep that pretty much sums it up for me.  West Coast typically has more of a bitterness up front whereas the East Coast IPAs have more body and hop flavor (think dogfishhead's 60 minute IPA).  That isn't the same all around, it's not 100% divided, but in general that's how it is, I think.  You've got breweries like Sierra Nevada who doesn't have any explosively bitter beers, but explosive hops flavor.  And honestly I'm having a hard time thinking of an explosively bitter East Coast IPA, probably because we just don't get that many East Coast beers here in Iowa other than Sam Adam's. 
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: beer_crafter on January 22, 2010, 04:16:46 pm
Some of the newer east coast IPAs stand up to the West Coast.  I would put Ithaca's Flower Power up against anything  from the west in terms of sheer hoppiness.  Captain Lawrence Double IPA, if you blindly tasted it, tastes like something from northern cali.  Nugget Nectar is no slouch too.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: tankdeer on January 22, 2010, 04:30:10 pm
That pretty much sums it up.

That being said, Pliny > 90 minute.  :P
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on January 22, 2010, 05:21:34 pm
Some of the newer east coast IPAs stand up to the West Coast.  I would put Ithaca's Flower Power up against anything  from the west in terms of sheer hoppiness.  Captain Lawrence Double IPA, if you blindly tasted it, tastes like something from northern cali.  Nugget Nectar is no slouch too.

I will have to look out for those mentioned. Thanks. I am on the eternal search and rescue mission of every IPA I can possibly find. I should really start a log with tasting notes. It's really hard to keep track of all these beers.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on January 22, 2010, 05:22:23 pm
That pretty much sums it up.

That being said, Pliny > 90 minute.  :P

Well... you know what they say about opinions.  ;D
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: tankdeer on January 22, 2010, 05:30:13 pm
That pretty much sums it up.

That being said, Pliny > 90 minute.  :P

Well... you what they say about opinions.  ;D
That mine is always right?   :o

Besides, that's not an opinion. It's a fact.  :D
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on January 22, 2010, 05:40:33 pm
That pretty much sums it up.

That being said, Pliny > 90 minute.  :P

Well... you what they say about opinions.  ;D
That mine is always right?   :o

Besides, that's not an opinion. It's a fact.  :D

That's okay. It can exist as a fact in your mind. But let the truth be known. 90 minute>Pliny  ;D
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: tankdeer on January 22, 2010, 05:44:30 pm
That pretty much sums it up.

That being said, Pliny > 90 minute.  :P

Well... you what they say about opinions.  ;D
That mine is always right?   :o

Besides, that's not an opinion. It's a fact.  :D

That's okay. It can exist as a fact in your mind. But let the truth be known. 90 minute>Pliny  ;D
Blasphomy. You must not have had fresh Pliny before.  ::)
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on January 22, 2010, 05:51:07 pm
That pretty much sums it up.

That being said, Pliny > 90 minute.  :P

Well... you what they say about opinions.  ;D
That mine is always right?   :o

Besides, that's not an opinion. It's a fact.  :D

That's okay. It can exist as a fact in your mind. But let the truth be known. 90 minute>Pliny  ;D
Blasphomy. You must not have had fresh Pliny before.  ::)

Okay...How about sending me a fresh Pliny and I'll send you a fresh DFH 90min and we'll compare notes.  ;)
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: mikeypedersen on January 22, 2010, 05:55:30 pm
I've had them both fresh and I would have to say that Pliny is my favorite.  However, if you are sitting in Rehoboth beach drinking a 90 minute through Randall The Enamel Animal, it might be different.  I had the 75 minute IPA (only served at the brew pub) through the Randall last time I was there and it was phenominal.

The flip-side to that is Pliny the Younger.....Fresh on tap it's nearly unbeatable.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: tankdeer on January 22, 2010, 06:10:13 pm
Okay...How about sending me a fresh Pliny and I'll send you a fresh DFH 90min and we'll compare notes.  ;)
I've had 90 minute pretty fresh, and still prefer Pliny. But I'm sure we can work out a swap sometime.

I've had them both fresh and I would have to say that Pliny is my favorite.  However, if you are sitting in Rehoboth beach drinking a 90 minute through Randall The Enamel Animal, it might be different.  I had the 75 minute IPA (only served at the brew pub) through the Randall last time I was there and it was phenominal.

The flip-side to that is Pliny the Younger.....Fresh on tap it's nearly unbeatable.
I have not had 90 minute through a Randall, but I dunno. It always seems so gimmicky to me. And Younger is a completely different animal. Truth be told I actually like Elder better, because it's suprisingly balanced for a DIPA. But I wouldn't kick a Younger out of bed.  ;)
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on January 22, 2010, 06:13:25 pm
Has anyone tried the Sierra Nevada Torpedo yet using 2-row with Magnum, Crystal and Citra hops?

Sounds good.

http://www.sierranevada.com/beers/torpedo.html

Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: a10t2 on January 22, 2010, 06:34:35 pm
Has anyone tried the Sierra Nevada Torpedo yet using 2-row with Magnum, Crystal and Citra hops?

I have, and would definitely recommend it. Not sure what "Extra IPA" means though; it's pretty restrained by AIPA standards. Hoppy, but there won't be bits of enamel in the bottom of the glass when you finish like with Pliny. Just marketing, I suppose.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: denny on January 22, 2010, 06:48:03 pm
Has anyone tried the Sierra Nevada Torpedo yet using 2-row with Magnum, Crystal and Citra hops?

Sounds good.

http://www.sierranevada.com/beers/torpedo.html



I've had it and I was kinda underwhelmed.  It's not a bad beer by any means, but after all the buildup I heard I expected something a bit more intense.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: blatz on January 22, 2010, 06:58:43 pm
DFH90 isn't even in the same league as Pliny, Ruination, Maharaja, Exponential Hoppiness, Hercules (I could go on) - its not bad, but the continual hop gimmick doesn't lend itself well to Imperial IPA, IMO.

To me, most EC IPAs are too sweet, too dark and in some cases cloying.  A lot (not DFH60) are pretty low on hop flavor.  I do like DFH 60 and GL Commodore Perry, but that is about it - Hop Devil is a dissapointment.  However, I have never had the ones Wahoo mentioned.

However, I could rattle off 15-20 IPAs that I absolutely love that all come from Colorado west.

Excited to be going to the opening of Southern Tier distribution in Florida this evening ( a bar is opening their taps today!) - I hear their IPAs are top notch.

BTW, Torpedo is pretty tasty, but it didn't live up to all the buildup hype and excitement that I got carried away with - but I have no problem buying an occasional sixer  ;)
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on January 22, 2010, 07:23:00 pm
DFH90 isn't even in the same league as Pliny, Ruination, Maharaja, Exponential Hoppiness, Hercules (I could go on) - its not bad, but the continual hop gimmick doesn't lend itself well to Imperial IPA, IMO.

To me, most EC IPAs are too sweet, too dark and in some cases cloying. 


What have you tried ECwise for comparison?
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: denny on January 22, 2010, 07:26:14 pm
I love Victory beers, but when I tried Hop Devil and Hop Slam, my thought was "where's the hops?".  One of my favorite stories involves my wife and me visiting Victory.  We were sitting at the bar with one of the owners and he offered us samples.  My wife said she like really hoppy beers, so he offered her a Hop Devil.  Having had it before, she asked if he had anything hoppier!  I was afraid he might cry...
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: mikeypedersen on January 22, 2010, 07:36:18 pm
Excited to be going to the opening of Southern Tier distribution in Florida this evening ( a bar is opening their taps today!) - I hear their IPAs are top notch.
We don't get their beers here in CO, but I have had a lot of their imperials while traveling around the country.  Their Unearthly Imperial IPA is really good, although I might put it more in the category of a very hoppy American Barleywine.  It's 11%  and has a lot of malt to back up all those hops.  It's probably my favorite of the beers I have tried of theirs.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: blatz on January 22, 2010, 07:39:23 pm
What have you tried EC whise for comparison?

I'm certain I've had more than this, but here's what I can rattle off that's non-brewpub, and that I can recall is East Coast

Assuming just regular strength IPAs (not imperial):

DFH 60min
Victory Hop Devil
GL Commodore Perry
Redhook Ballard Bitter (is it considered EC?)
Sweetwater IPA
Troegs Nugget Nectar
Sam Adams IPA
Harpoon IPA
Ipswich IPA
Weyerbacher Simcoe IPA (that may have been Imperial tho)
Smuttynose IPA
Bells’ Two Hearted (again, not sure of EC classification)
Shipyard IPA
Saranac IPA


Now that you made me list it out, I'd forgotten earlier that I do LOVE Smutty IPA and Bell's is pretty tasty as well (though from the samples I have had, its overrated - maybe its better closer to the source).  
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on January 22, 2010, 07:42:02 pm
I love Victory beers, but when I tried Hop Devil and Hop Slam, my thought was "where's the hops?".  One of my favorite stories involves my wife and me visiting Victory.  We were sitting at the bar with one of the owners and he offered us samples.  My wife said she like really hoppy beers, so he offered her a Hop Devil.  Having had it before, she asked if he had anything hoppier!  I was afraid he might cry...

Yea...I'm about an hours drive from Victory and I really love their beers too. Hop Devil is good. I like their Hop Wallop better (DIPA). It comes in at about 8.5%ABV.

The guitar player in my band hosts an open jam at Victory every Monday night and he's been trying to get me to come out there for a while. I'LL eventually make it out to the jam.

Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: a10t2 on January 22, 2010, 07:42:11 pm
Bell's is pretty tasty as well (though from the samples I have had, its overrated - maybe its better closer to the source).

Can you get THA on draft? It's crack. Not "like crack" - I'm pretty sure they actually use crack rocks in the whirlpool.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on January 22, 2010, 07:46:39 pm
What have you tried EC whise for comparison?

Now that you made me list it out, I'd forgotten earlier that I do LOVE Smutty IPA and Bell's is pretty tasty as well (though from the samples I have had, its overrated - maybe its better closer to the source).  

Smuttynose is a fine EC example. One of my faves.  8)

Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: blatz on January 22, 2010, 07:46:58 pm

Can you get THA on draft? It's crack. Not "like crack" - I'm pretty sure they actually use crack rocks in the whirlpool.

unfortunately, no.  the distributor that originally brought Bells to Florida got bought out by one of the bigs (they distribute Coors, Heiney, etc.) and they don't care about craft apparently, and don't push Bells too much anymore, so the chances of getting kegs are slim.  
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: denny on January 22, 2010, 07:50:35 pm
I love Victory beers, but when I tried Hop Devil and Hop Slam, my thought was "where's the hops?".  One of my favorite stories involves my wife and me visiting Victory.  We were sitting at the bar with one of the owners and he offered us samples.  My wife said she like really hoppy beers, so he offered her a Hop Devil.  Having had it before, she asked if he had anything hoppier!  I was afraid he might cry...

Yea...I'm about an hours drive from Victory and I really love their beers too. Hop Devil is good. I like their Hop Wallop better (DIPA). It comes in at about 8.5%ABV.

The guitar player in my band hosts an open jam at Victory every Monday night and he's been trying to get me to come out there for a while. I'LL eventually make it out to the jam.



Hop WALLOP!  That's what I meant instead of Hop Slam.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: blatz on January 22, 2010, 07:52:02 pm
Smuttynose is a fine EC example. One of my faves.  8)

See, I'd actually say that Smutty's is more of a West Coast style IPA that's brewed East Coast.  It uses Simcoe, Santiam and one other (?) and is all 2 row and with a touch of light crystal giving it a lower scale color (6-7SRM) and finishes very dry .  IIRC, they recommend Chico yeast when cloning their beers.

I'd consider Victory, Dogfish and Harpoon's examples as more in the East Coast vein.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: redbeerman on January 22, 2010, 07:54:56 pm
I think it has a lot to do with what you've been exposed to and how your tastes have developed.  Where hops are grown, the beers have an abundance (over-abundance perhaps) of bitterness and good flavor and aroma.  If this is all you drink, your palate will get used to it and anything less will pale in comparison.  It's kind of like eating spicy and/or hot food.  If you eat Indian food the way most of my Indian friends eat it all of the time, the stuff they serve in restaurants will taste like white bread.  What amazes me, is after drinking the super bitter IPAs and DIPAs we can still pick up on the subtleties of a Kolsch.  The IPAs I brew pretty much run the gamut as far as IBUs go, but I tend to go toward the upper limit, even for an east coast guy. ;)  I do love my crystal malts though.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on January 22, 2010, 08:21:10 pm
Smuttynose is a fine EC example. One of my faves.  8)

See, I'd actually say that Smutty's is more of a West Coast style IPA that's brewed East Coast.  It uses Simcoe, Santiam and one other (?) and is all 2 row and with a touch of light crystal giving it a lower scale color (6-7SRM) and finishes very dry .  IIRC, they recommend Chico yeast when cloning their beers.

I'd consider Victory, Dogfish and Harpoon's examples as more in the East Coast vein.

Yes...but I think there's more to it than just that. There's the processes, raw materials (yeast, grain bill, etc...), but I see your point with Smutty.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on January 22, 2010, 09:04:44 pm
The IPAs I brew pretty much run the gamut as far as IBUs go, but I tend to go toward the upper limit, even for an east coast guy. ;)  I do love my crystal malts though.

+1

I do to.

I like my IPA/DIPA's around 10-12SRM using medium crystal malts with varying hops within style usually on the high end 60-70AAU's. Denny got me on a rye kick too, but it's not necessary.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: pinnah on January 22, 2010, 10:17:37 pm
What's your take on our American IPA's ?

Seems we have developed a couple different styles.
Not such a bitter divide until you try and say one is better than the other. ;)

maybe its better closer to the source. 

+1,
With a style so dependent
on a characteristic that fades rapidly over time.
freshness should be a key idea in judgment.

BTW, almost all those good Colorado ipa's are east slopers,
and drain their water to the Atlantic ;D

Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: nyakavt on January 23, 2010, 02:58:51 am
Anybody that claims there is a better DIPA than Pliny hasn't had Pliny.  I've lived on the east coast all my life, but you have to give credit where credit is due.  East coast IPAs tend to be very bitter, but come up short on flavor (generalizing, I know).  But some of these west coast guys have mastered extracting the most flavor from the hops.  The trick is getting one of these on the east coast with the hop flavor intact, usually not an easy proposition unless it's on draft.  Hop flavor leaves so quickly at elevated temperatures, I don't know why they bother shipping warm bottles to sit on warm shelves for months before purchase.

All that said, Bell's was the first IPA I could not put down.  It was on draft, and I couldn't get enough.  But this is definitely a west coast 'style' IPA even if it's brewed in Michigan, emphasizing hop flavor over and above anything else.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: dean on January 23, 2010, 11:02:24 pm
I think you guys are right in that many of the EC IPA's are darker and maltier, but then I tried Bells and Founders, of those two I'd say Founders has a lot of Centennial hop flavor and aroma and is currently my favorite, their PA has so much aroma it smacks you in the face as soon as you open the bottle.  I don't know about Pliny and some of the other IPA's mentioned, haven't had them that I "know of".... (yet).
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on January 24, 2010, 02:17:10 am
The original highly hopped beer in the USA was Ballantine IPA. It's now a legend despite the fact that it has not been brewed at all since the mid 90's.

"West Coast IPA's" have a more bitter, hoppy character than other IPAs, although the east coast brewed and Ballantine IPA was just as highly hopped as (and in some cases, more highly hopped than) many "West Coast" IPAs. The hops in West Coast IPAs tend to have a citrus, grapefruit or coriander flavor, as opposed to the wood and pine accents of some IPAs brewed on the east coast.

Since the early 1980s there's been a movement toward true Craft Brewing, where "real" IPA has been brewed. The once rare style is now fairly common. At least partly because of Ballantine IPA's legendary status in American brewing, the style has been attempted in recent years by numerous microbrewers.

It all boils down to one's own personal tastes. I will try any beer once, but it's the beer that I continue to drink that I can call my favorite and that's American made IPA's.

Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: The Professor on January 24, 2010, 03:31:59 pm
...At least partly because of Ballantine IPA's legendary status in American brewing, the style has been attempted in recent years by numerous microbrewers.


Attempted is the word. 
I am forever spoiled, with Bally IPA having been my go to beer from the late 60's  right up to the mid 80's when they stopped making it to the original specs.
It outclassed every IPA being made today by any brewer, big or small.  A few have come close, and I'll keep tasting them, but I haven't handed out any victory cigars yet. ;)

Meantime, my experiments with the homebrewed version continue...
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: Lynux on January 25, 2010, 10:16:10 pm
How about Midwest IPA's? lol...

3 Floyds makes some incredibly hoppy and delicious beers in Munster Indiana.  Dreadnaught on tap is something to die for.  Their distribution is very limited unfortunately.

Founders Double Trouble is no slouch for a midwest IPA either. 

I personally think fresh Hopslam is the best DIPA ever.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: blatz on February 02, 2010, 07:47:18 pm
Bell's is pretty tasty as well (though from the samples I have had, its overrated - maybe its better closer to the source).

Can you get THA on draft? It's crack. Not "like crack" - I'm pretty sure they actually use crack rocks in the whirlpool.

okay - so this weekend I had the opportunity to chat with Larry for 20 min or so this weekend and have a few taster glasses full of 2HA - I must say, it is exponentially better than the bottles I have had - though the ambience of having the guy who started the company pour you a few and shoot the breeze about brewing might have heightened the experience.  

I still say there are quite a few IPAs I prefer, but I think 2HA on draft may have just cracked my IPA top 10 list.

But I'm sorry, Lynux, the Hopslam we had, while good, just can't hang with PTE.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: Lynux on February 02, 2010, 10:21:33 pm

Quote
But I'm sorry, Lynux, the Hopslam we had, while good, just can't hang with PTE

Blasphemy!   ;)
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: tankdeer on February 02, 2010, 11:08:53 pm
I had a Pliny with my fish and chips for dinner last night. Surprisingly a perfect match up. And simply delicious.  ;D
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: bluesman on February 03, 2010, 02:15:13 am
Interestingly enough...Vinnie Cilurzo is regarded as one of the most innovative microbrewers in the country. He’s often credited with inventing the Double IPA.

During a recent interview, when Vinnie was asked..."How did you get into brewing, and how did you come up with the Double IPA?"

His response was..."I went into it after working in my parents’ wine business. I guess you could say I’ve been around yeasts all my life. I kind of invented the Double IPA at the (now-defunct) Blind Pig in San Diego, where I worked prior to Russian River Brewing Company. I did it mainly because the equipment we had there was so rustic that if there were off flavors, the hops would cover them up.

In other words it was an accident of sorts.
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: nyakavt on February 03, 2010, 01:32:05 pm
okay - so this weekend I had the opportunity to chat with Larry for 20 min or so this weekend and have a few taster glasses full of 2HA - I must say, it is exponentially better than the bottles I have had - though the ambience of having the guy who started the company pour you a few and shoot the breeze about brewing might have heightened the experience.  

I still say there are quite a few IPAs I prefer, but I think 2HA on draft may have just cracked my IPA top 10 list.

But I'm sorry, Lynux, the Hopslam we had, while good, just can't hang with PTE.

Hoppy beers are best as fresh as possible, and I've had the same experience with 2HA.  I had 2HA on draft first and couldn't put the freaking glass down.  I got a sixer from the store and thought it was 'ok', but couldn't hold a candle to the draft example.  Time and temperature really wreak havoc on hops.  Even my 2HA clone, it was great after about 2 weeks, but when it sat in the warm closet for 2 more weeks it just wasn't as good.

BTW, I've heard Vinnie pulled Pliny from the shelves of Beverages and More (one of the largest bottle shop markets in CA) because they could not promise to keep the beer cold until sale.  If you're going to compare IPAs from coast to coast, you must do it on draft as kegs are generally a little fresher and have been kept colder than the sixer on the warm shelf in the bottle shop.  Bottles are ok if you know they were well handled.  That may be part of the reason East Coasters say they prefer EC IPAs, they are just fresher.  West Coasters say it because it's true  8)
Title: Re: East Coast vs. West Coast IPA - A Bitter Divide.
Post by: dean on February 03, 2010, 03:18:33 pm
I guess I have to agree that WC likes hoppier beers at least comparing them to my own taste.  I like a beer to have some malt flavor in its backbone or it tends to be too harsh for my liking.  The reason I don't like Founder's Pale Ale (which only has 35 IBU's) is because it comes across harsh with little or no maltiness (probably no crystal used in it is my guess) so it seems harsh at 5.4% abv.  I suppose WCer's would like it though?

I really need to try some other brewerys other than Founders...  :D  I do but there aren't many that are offered back here in the sticks or they're like buying gold jewelry.   :(  Some of the others that I have tried seem to be too malty for my taste.   :-\