Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: jklinck on February 08, 2012, 10:45:32 AM

Title: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: jklinck on February 08, 2012, 10:45:32 AM
I'm having a debate right now with someone that posted Jamil's recipes from Brewing Classic Styles onto their website. I told the guy that I think he shouldn't post it as Jamil probably wouldn't like it and that people should just buy his book. He says that the recipes are public domain. What does everyone else think?
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: Slowbrew on February 08, 2012, 12:01:28 PM
At a minimum he should ask permission.  If the recipes are from Jamil's books, then they are under copyright and it is illegal to repushlish them without permission.

If he has modified them in any way then they are no longer Jamil's but if he is just doing a cut/paste he is violating the copyright.

IANAL but the current copyright laws have been a pet interest of mine for many years.

Paul
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: brushvalleybrewer on February 08, 2012, 12:11:43 PM
What does everyone else think?

I am just one person but I think several things.

First, your friend's premise is nearly correct, if slightly flawed in its presentation. According to the U.S. Copyright Office (http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl122.html):

Quote
Copyright law does not protect recipes that are mere listings of ingredients. Nor does it protect other mere listings of ingredients such as those found in formulas, compounds, or prescriptions. Copyright protection may, however, extend to substantial literary expression—a description, explanation, or illustration, for example—that accompanies a recipe or formula or to a combination of recipes, as in a cookbook.

Note that Jamil's book and the "substantial literary expression" that accompanies the recipe are protected by copyright, but that the "mere listings of ingredients" is not.

That said, the Brewer's Code says that you shouldn't take food from another brewer's mouth... and here we get into the gray area.

If it were me, I would not claim the recipe as my own — that would be a lie. I might present it in the context of a review of the book and provide links to where the reader could buy the book — that would be fair use. Instead of presenting the recipe myself, I might simply link to Fred Bonjour's site which houses — with permission — many of Jamil's recipes (http://beerdujour.com/JamilsRecipes.htm) that were available prior to the publishing of Brewing Classic Styles. For those that are not there, or even in addition for those that are, instead of presenting the recipe myself, I might link to the Jamil Show Archives (http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Jamil-Show) for the episode in question.

All of that said, a recipe is just that barest of starts on a great beer. Equipment, process, technique, and the brewer's skill are what makes a great beer. Jamil can make a better beer with a can of hopped extract than I can make with the best recipe.

(I am not a lawyer.)

[Edited to remove the "presumably" regarding Fred's permission to post the recipes. See his comment (http://"http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=10867.msg135233#msg135233").]
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: majorvices on February 08, 2012, 12:35:31 PM
Wow! Great post BVB!

JZ's recipes have been thrown around for years and years and he has been one of the main contributors of that. As BVB mentioned, you can go to Fred's site and get a copy of many of them. I don't think publishing them keeps people from buying his book. I have seen charlie P recipes all over the internet, as well as Randy Mosher's.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: bonjour on February 08, 2012, 12:39:44 PM
, I might simply link to Fred Bonjour's site which houses — presumably with permission — many of Jamil's recipes (http://beerdujour.com/JamilsRecipes.htm) that were available prior to the publishing of Brewing Classic Styles.
That is with permission.  I told him that if he wanted or needed those recipes to come down I would remove them.  They stopped going up when his publisher asked him to stop publishing.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: scott on February 08, 2012, 01:39:20 PM
BVB does a good job quoting from the U.S. Copyright Office.

Information by itself is not copyrightable, it is the expression that is.  For example, telephone numbers in a phone book are not copyrightable.  So the information about how to do a partial mash in the appendix of BCS is not copyrightable.  Everyone is free to share how to do a partial mash, but not necessarily free to re-publish the picture of partial mashing in BCS or the words in BCS that express how to partial mash (the expression).

The recipes by themselves are not copyrightable, they are information.  Jamil went thought a lot of effort to create these recipes, but that does not mean each recipe is protected by copyright.  (Patent protection may have been more appropriate).  Exactly what part of the book that is protected by copyright is murky.  Probably the collection of recipes selected and the way the recipes are formatted.  Probably the explanation about how to brew beer in the beginning and appendix.

Even if something is not against the law it is not an evaluation about whether it is the right thing to do.

Scott

I am an attorney.  I am NOT your attorney.  This is NOT legal advice.  I am NOT giving you legal advice.  Do NOT rely upon these statements.  This is just rambling about copyright law.  No attorney-client relationship is being formed by this communication.  This text is copyrighted.  Any violation may be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  But you can copy this text if you send me a homebrew beer.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: jamminbrew on February 08, 2012, 01:58:10 PM
I could see posting one or two, but all of them? While your friend may be within legal rights to do so, it strikes me as inappropriate to post more than a few without permission.  Does this person's website profit in anyway from posting these recipes?
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: scott on February 08, 2012, 02:05:48 PM
I doubt he is able to post all or even most of the recipes from BCS without violating Jamil and John's copyright.  Jamil and John selected which recipes to include in the book.  That is likely a form of expression so it would be protected.

Same legal disclaimer as before.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: Slowbrew on February 08, 2012, 02:40:07 PM
"I am an attorney.  I am NOT your attorney.  This is NOT legal advice.  I am NOT giving you legal advice.  Do NOT rely upon these statements.  This is just rambling about copyright law.  No attorney-client relationship is being formed by this communication.  This text is copyrighted.  Any violation may be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  But you can copy this text if you send me a homebrew beer."

I like this disclaimer. 

And thanks to all for clarifying the issues.  My general beef with current copyright law has nothing to do with this discussion.  I'm going to be quiet now before I accidentally open up a political discussion.

 8)

Paul
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: bonjour on February 08, 2012, 02:42:39 PM
So did you send him a homebrew beer,

thru the USPS of course ;-)
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: majorvices on February 08, 2012, 03:04:35 PM
I doubt he is able to post all or even most of the recipes from BCS without violating Jamil and John's copyright.  Jamil and John selected which recipes to include in the book.  That is likely a form of expression so it would be protected.

Same legal disclaimer as before.

Even if he could legally do it it would be really uncool.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: kswitzer on February 08, 2012, 03:09:13 PM
As JZ's publisher I have an opinion to share.

As there is a collection of recipes from Brewing Classic Styles and also considering that the recipes are the substantial portion of the book, I believe this would be infringing on the copyright.  See below from the copyright office.

"Copyright protection may, however, extend to substantial literary expression—a description, explanation, or illustration, for example—that accompanies a recipe or formula or to a collection of recipes, as in a cookbook. "  Emphasis mine.

That said, as publisher, I have been generous with offering permission to those who have asked to post a recipe or two offering proper attribution.  I prefer to work things out and have a great appreciation and understanding for the passionate sharing of information about brewing.  However, in the end it is my job to protect my authors and their work.  If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask.  

As always if you have any ideas for books you'd like to see or an author to suggest, I'm always open to your thoughts.

Cheers~
Kristi Switzer
Publisher, Brewers Publications
kristi@brewersassociation.org
www.BrewersPublications.com

Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: anthony on February 08, 2012, 06:13:31 PM
As JZ's publisher I have an opinion to share.

As there is a collection of recipes from Brewing Classic Styles and also considering that the recipes are the substantial portion of the book, I believe this would be infringing on the copyright.  See below from the copyright office.

"Copyright protection may, however, extend to substantial literary expression—a description, explanation, or illustration, for example—that accompanies a recipe or formula or to a collection of recipes, as in a cookbook. "  Emphasis mine.

That said, as publisher, I have been generous with offering permission to those who have asked to post a recipe or two offering proper attribution.  I prefer to work things out and have a great appreciation and understanding for the passionate sharing of information about brewing.  However, in the end it is my job to protect my authors and their work.  If you have any questions please don't hesitate to ask.  

As always if you have any ideas for books you'd like to see or an author to suggest, I'm always open to your thoughts.

Cheers~
Kristi Switzer
Publisher, Brewers Publications
kristi@brewersassociation.org
www.BrewersPublications.com



Well said!

One thing that would be nice is Kindle editions of the Brewers Publications books.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: deepsouth on February 08, 2012, 06:43:28 PM
would love to see some downloadable brewing books. 

Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: euge on February 08, 2012, 06:56:27 PM
I would like to see some Kindle versions or brewing e-books... :)

Seriously though, I can see posting a recipe or two with attribution to the author(s) (JZ/JP) as a sign of respect and giving them credit where it is due. Even without permission.

But to post them all on a website would be an act of extreme douchery- regardless if it was legal or not. IMO we owe a lot to JZ and JP especially and all the others who have taken the time and effort to publish their experiences and knowledge.

That being said I'm glad we stopped SOPA dead in it's tracks!
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: dbeechum on February 08, 2012, 07:01:19 PM
There's one free to Prime Members of Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Homebrewing-Book-Hobbies-ebook/dp/B0045Y23Q6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1328727644&sr=8-2
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: bonjour on February 08, 2012, 07:15:41 PM
Who wrote that one Drew?
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: euge on February 08, 2012, 07:19:49 PM
There's one free to Prime Members of Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Everything-Homebrewing-Book-Hobbies-ebook/dp/B0045Y23Q6/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1328727644&sr=8-2

Why thank you Drew. Thought it looked familiar! And all those stars... It must be good.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: dbeechum on February 08, 2012, 07:23:31 PM
Who wrote that one Drew?

Some know it all jerk. :)
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: tschmidlin on February 08, 2012, 07:48:24 PM
Who wrote that one Drew?

Some know it all jerk. :)
Thanks Drew, I've got the hard copy but the e-copy will be nice bus reading.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: denny on February 08, 2012, 08:01:24 PM
Who wrote that one Drew?

Some know it all jerk. :)

No I didn't!  ;)
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: kswitzer on February 08, 2012, 08:07:25 PM
would love to see some downloadable brewing books. 



Brewers Publications has some books available on Kindle but only a handful.  Actually we are working on a new digital initiative beginning this year.  We will be investing in both epub format (works on most all readers) and a kindle format for titles.  The conversion process is note a quick thing as our books are not text only.  Text only books are pretty quick and easy but you start throwing in recipes, sidebars, charts and graphs and it can throw a lot of formatting out of whack.  

In any case, I have two of them in production right now.  How to Brew by John Palmer is first up on deck and will be followed by Sacred Herbal and Healing Beers.  This technology will also allow us to bring back out of print titles that have been requested (think the Lambic book from the Classic Beer Style Series).  I'd love to be able to have them all up asap but as mentioned it is more complicated than you may think though I expect it will get easier as time goes on.  I'd rather take the time and do them right if we are going to put them out there.  In the end with all the variables that come into play with these eReaders, I am doing what we can to ensure a good experience for the reader despite some technological limitations.  

Stay posted on new releases and when eBooks are released by following progress on:
Facebook facebook/BrewersPublications, twitter handle @beerbooks and the new BP website is BrewersPublications.com

Cheers~
Kristi
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: gsandel on February 08, 2012, 08:36:18 PM
@ Kristi!!!!

1. Thanks for weighing in on your perspective regarding BCS recipes.
2. In regard to Brewer's Publications in an e-format: Super AWESOME!  I am looking forward to whatever I can get for my Kindle Fire.  I like to browse topics and info on brewing when I have a few minutes or when I am sitting drinking a beer, and would rebuy some to replace my tattered copies and I know I would make more spur of the moment kindle book purchases if I could get the Lambic book the minute I was wondering about something sour.  I especially would love Michael Jackson's works at my fingertips while sitting at the Cheeky Monk on Colfax, for example.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: phillamb168 on February 08, 2012, 09:51:19 PM
Kristi, as long as we've got you here, do you have any French language brewing technique books? I've talked with both Randy Mosher and Charlie Papazian about getting translations done and they're interested, but finding a publisher here that'll take it on is tough.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: anthony on February 08, 2012, 10:34:07 PM
would love to see some downloadable brewing books. 



Brewers Publications has some books available on Kindle but only a handful.  Actually we are working on a new digital initiative beginning this year.  We will be investing in both epub format (works on most all readers) and a kindle format for titles.  The conversion process is note a quick thing as our books are not text only.  Text only books are pretty quick and easy but you start throwing in recipes, sidebars, charts and graphs and it can throw a lot of formatting out of whack.  

In any case, I have two of them in production right now.  How to Brew by John Palmer is first up on deck and will be followed by Sacred Herbal and Healing Beers.  This technology will also allow us to bring back out of print titles that have been requested (think the Lambic book from the Classic Beer Style Series).  I'd love to be able to have them all up asap but as mentioned it is more complicated than you may think though I expect it will get easier as time goes on.  I'd rather take the time and do them right if we are going to put them out there.  In the end with all the variables that come into play with these eReaders, I am doing what we can to ensure a good experience for the reader despite some technological limitations.  

Stay posted on new releases and when eBooks are released by following progress on:
Facebook facebook/BrewersPublications, twitter handle @beerbooks and the new BP website is BrewersPublications.com

Cheers~
Kristi

Great :)
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: theoman on February 09, 2012, 12:08:22 PM
Kristi, as long as we've got you here, do you have any French language brewing technique books? I've talked with both Randy Mosher and Charlie Papazian about getting translations done and they're interested, but finding a publisher here that'll take it on is tough.

Cool idea. For a direction toward a publisher, perhaps check with Tim Webb: http://booksaboutbeer.com/
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: johnf on February 09, 2012, 03:17:08 PM
would love to see some downloadable brewing books. 



Brewers Publications has some books available on Kindle but only a handful.  Actually we are working on a new digital initiative beginning this year.  We will be investing in both epub format (works on most all readers) and a kindle format for titles.  The conversion process is note a quick thing as our books are not text only.  Text only books are pretty quick and easy but you start throwing in recipes, sidebars, charts and graphs and it can throw a lot of formatting out of whack.  

In any case, I have two of them in production right now.  How to Brew by John Palmer is first up on deck and will be followed by Sacred Herbal and Healing Beers.  This technology will also allow us to bring back out of print titles that have been requested (think the Lambic book from the Classic Beer Style Series).  I'd love to be able to have them all up asap but as mentioned it is more complicated than you may think though I expect it will get easier as time goes on.  I'd rather take the time and do them right if we are going to put them out there.  In the end with all the variables that come into play with these eReaders, I am doing what we can to ensure a good experience for the reader despite some technological limitations.  

Stay posted on new releases and when eBooks are released by following progress on:
Facebook facebook/BrewersPublications, twitter handle @beerbooks and the new BP website is BrewersPublications.com

Cheers~
Kristi

Kristi, I would love to see Analysis of Brewing Techniques available electronically. A few years back I tried to buy a copy used and it was basically impossible. I got one from like Alabama or something through inter-library loan and read it but I would love to own a copy.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: deepsouth on February 10, 2012, 01:13:04 AM
awesome info.  thanks for the link drew and thanks for the info kristi!  cheers.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: el_capitan on February 10, 2012, 02:53:12 AM
I've been brewing my way through BCS and have been extremely happy with each batch of beer.  I think the recipes are well-written, and the short style profile that accompanies each is helpful.  I've been recommending this book to any brewer that I can, because I see the value in a proven recipe, and like I said, they're turning out to be fantastic recipes.

You should try to convince your friend to take them down. 
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: Jimmy K on February 10, 2012, 03:00:38 AM
Seriously though, I can see posting a recipe or two with attribution to the author(s) (JZ/JP) as a sign of respect and giving them credit where it is due. Even without permission.

But to post them all on a website would be an act of extreme douchery- regardless if it was legal or not. IMO we owe a lot to JZ and JP especially and all the others who have taken the time and effort to publish their experiences and knowledge.

Best answer so far.

I also think that he can legally copy the ingredient lists for some recipes, but the more he copies, the closer he is to infringing on Jamil's 'collection' of recipes. The text accompanying each recipe offering procedures and tips for the best result are more likely to fall under copyright.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: dcbc on February 10, 2012, 04:08:18 PM
If we're talking about Fred's site, I was under the impression that those were put together and posted before BCS was published.  They certainly seem to be based on the information that JZ put out on the BN's Jamil show.  It's a handy reference when I don't have my hard copy of BCS on hand.  I, of course, see the publisher's point.  But cookbook copyrights aren't generally worth fighting over.

/not legal advise
//I hated every day I spent taking Copyright law.
///just wanted to read about the Beatles.
////the George Harrison case was boring.
/////slashy
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: morticaixavier on February 10, 2012, 04:54:07 PM
If we're talking about Fred's site, I was under the impression that those were put together and posted before BCS was published.  They certainly seem to be based on the information that JZ put out on the BN's Jamil show.  It's a handy reference when I don't have my hard copy of BCS on hand.  I, of course, see the publisher's point.  But cookbook copyrights aren't generally worth fighting over.

/not legal advise
//I hated every day I spent taking Copyright law.
///just wanted to read about the Beatles.
////the George Harrison case was boring.
/////slashy

nah Fred's site has permission for the ones that are up there. this is another guy.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: dcbc on February 10, 2012, 06:22:43 PM
Very good.  I thought Fred looked pretty relaxed in his responses earlier. 

Yeah, if they are blatant copies with no permission, they ought to come down under brewer's code, all the copyright rules notwithstanding.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: bonjour on February 10, 2012, 06:26:31 PM
Very good.  I thought Fred looked pretty relaxed in his responses earlier. 

Yeah, if they are blatant copies with no permission, they ought to come down under brewer's code, all the copyright rules notwithstanding.
agreed
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: kgs on February 11, 2012, 01:42:01 AM
Seriously though, I can see posting a recipe or two with attribution to the author(s) (JZ/JP) as a sign of respect and giving them credit where it is due. Even without permission.

But to post them all on a website would be an act of extreme douchery- regardless if it was legal or not. IMO we owe a lot to JZ and JP especially and all the others who have taken the time and effort to publish their experiences and knowledge.

Best answer so far.

I also think that he can legally copy the ingredient lists for some recipes, but the more he copies, the closer he is to infringing on Jamil's 'collection' of recipes. The text accompanying each recipe offering procedures and tips for the best result are more likely to fall under copyright.

Yes, as a librarian (not a lawyer) that is what I was thinking. on both counts -- the unchivalrous behavior, and the " more he copies" comment.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: morticaixavier on February 11, 2012, 02:45:43 AM
[...] an act of extreme douchery- [...]


Yes, as a librarian (not a lawyer) that is what I was thinking. on both counts -- the unchivalrous behavior, and the " more he copies" comment.

I love librarians notice "extreme douchery" == "unchivalrous behavior"  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: thirsty on February 11, 2012, 02:41:36 PM
Also, the book is only like 12 bucks. Cheap enough for any one to buy.

Aside from the recipes, it's a fun read.
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 11, 2012, 04:31:21 PM
I even attribute JZ's recipes to him with a "JZ" designation when I put them on my whiteboard listing the brews I have on tap.  I don't want anyone to think that I came up with a recipe when it was his.  It doesn't mean I won't take a compliment about how well it turned out - but even then I tell them it was JZ's recipe.  Same goes for CP and JP.

It seems like the best karma practice to me.

Now back to my mash of Palendrome Pils....
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: kswitzer on February 13, 2012, 01:31:37 PM
Copyright issues:  General rule of thumb is that 2 - 3 recipes or 150 - 200 words can be quoted with proper attribution.  Think about recipe books reviewed in the food section.  Usually 2 - 3 recipes from some particular book are included in the review.  I am a firm believer in asking permission rather than forgiveness but then I would be ;)  I try to respond quickly when I have requests come in so that asking for permission isn't a stumbling block to someone wishing to use content from BP titles.

Foreign Rights:  As far as French translation goes, I haven't been approached by any publishers and haven't come across enough of an interest to pursue it.  I believe that Designing Great Beers was once published in Korean  (pre-Kristi) and the Italian version was launched last month (I'm waiting on the copies to show up in the mail).  There's a possibility that How to Brew could become a Russian edition - there was a turnover in reps after we sold the rights so there were a few hiccups in title development.  There has been some interest in Portuguese and Spanish translations as well for Brew Like a Monk, Radical and some of the style series but no bite yet.  It can be a lengthy process.

eBook Conversion:  Analysis of Brewing Techniques and others are in the plan but it will be a process based on demand/interest and technical feasibility of conversion but I do appreciate you weighing in!  This title is planned but down the road a piece yet.  I'd love to see ALL of our titles available in eBook format and as we get more familiar with all the various things to look for in planning and proofing these books, it will go a little more quickly.

Again - open to questions, suggestions and input anytime!

Cheers~
Kristi Switzer
Publisher, Brewers Publications
Kristi (at) BrewersAssociation.org
Title: Re: Opinion about posting Jamil's recipes
Post by: alikocho on February 13, 2012, 10:05:23 PM
In the UK, you could reproduce one chapter or 10% (whichever is the greater) as long as it is attributed. More than that, even attributed, is violation of copyright. The same rule as in the US for lists of ingredients applies for recipes, but any details on method (i.e. explanation of how to pull it off) are copyright in the UK.

I am not a lawyer. I have successfully sued someone for plagiarizing my work.