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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: dhacker on January 26, 2010, 12:14:18 PM

Title: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: dhacker on January 26, 2010, 12:14:18 PM
For this year's Tennessee Brewfest, I'm planning on cloning  all commercial beers. (10) At least one of the recipes I'm entertaining (Pliny) calls for mash hops. I've never used hops in the mash and was curious how this differs from First Wort Hopping?

Can it affect the pH level in the mash?
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: denny on January 26, 2010, 04:37:36 PM
I tried mash hopping 3 times before deciding that it added nothing to the beer and was a waste of hops.  I really don't know about it affecting pH levels.  My WAG would be not much if at all.
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: dhacker on January 26, 2010, 05:16:04 PM
I tried mash hopping 3 times before deciding that it added nothing to the beer and was a waste of hops. 

Denny . . as in nothing at all, or nothing over FWH?
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: denny on January 26, 2010, 05:18:19 PM
Nothing...no detectable effects at all.  I used them in 3 recipes I'd brewed often and was very familiar with and I couldn't tell any difference from not using them.
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: dhacker on January 26, 2010, 07:04:26 PM
'ppreciate it, Sir . .
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: tom on January 26, 2010, 07:13:15 PM
In that recipe I use the Mash hops as FWH instead.
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: blatz on January 26, 2010, 07:26:57 PM
FWIW, I wouldn't use any recipe for PTE but the one Vinnie gives out himself (http://www.beerdujour.com/Recipes/1Pliny%20the%20Elder%20clone%20PDF.pdf)

No Randall, no MASH hops and no stinking FWH either!!!    :D ;D
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: bluesman on January 26, 2010, 07:43:46 PM
FWIW, I wouldn't use any recipe for PTE but the one Vinnie gives out himself (http://www.beerdujour.com/Recipes/1Pliny%20the%20Elder%20clone%20PDF.pdf)

No Randall, no MASH hops and no stinking FWH either!!!    :D ;D

I see your West Coast tendencies at work.  ;D
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: blatz on January 26, 2010, 07:45:35 PM
I see your West Coast tendencies at work.  ;D

 ;D
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: dhacker on January 26, 2010, 07:52:35 PM
FWIW, I wouldn't use any recipe for PTE but the one Vinnie gives out himself (http://www.beerdujour.com/Recipes/1Pliny%20the%20Elder%20clone%20PDF.pdf)

No Randall, no MASH hops and no stinking FWH either!!!    :D ;D

Thanks for the link. I like simplifying!  :)
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 27, 2010, 01:12:13 AM
Vinnie had given out a recipe for Pliny the Elder 4 or so years ago. 

The one on Fred's site is the new one published this summer in Zymurgy.  No mash hops, no FWH, no Chinook, etc.  That is on my list of ones to make.  The old recipe was very good.  Oh, and Vinnie said on Brew Strong that there is some Amarillo in Pliny now (he didn't say when or how much).

As a side story, I brewed the old recipe when it was given out.  Entered it in the Michigan state fair, as a DIPA.  The judges knocked it for being "too hoppy for style".  They were not BJCP, to make that clear, but still...  ???.
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: mikeypedersen on January 27, 2010, 01:29:03 AM
Vinnie had given out a recipe for Pliny the Elder 4 or so years ago. 

The one on Fred's site is the new one published this summer in Zymurgy.  No mash hops, no FWH, no Chinook, etc.  That is on my list of ones to make.  The old recipe was very good.  Oh, and Vinnie said on Brew Strong that there is some Amarillo in Pliny now (he didn't say when or how much).

As a side story, I brewed the old recipe when it was given out.  Entered it in the Michigan state fair, as a DIPA.  The judges knocked it for being "too hoppy for style".  They were not BJCP, to make that clear, but still...  ???.
I've entered the Old Recipe for Pliny in 2 different BJCP sanctioned events.  It was a little past it's prime, maybe 5 or so months old (that fresh hop aroma almost changes by the day for a couple of weeks) but still took silver in both.
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: bspisak on February 11, 2010, 12:49:23 AM
And where can one find the old recipe?
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 11, 2010, 03:14:46 AM
And where can one find the old recipe?

I think Vinnie was talking about it in his firs appearance at BN Sunday session.
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: nyakavt on February 11, 2010, 01:32:26 PM
And where can one find the old recipe?

I think Vinnie was talking about it in his firs appearance at BN Sunday session.

That one linked on Fred's site, AFAIK, is the original Pliny homebrew recipe.  I seem to remember them discussing that the recipe was 'out there' on that first Sunday Session, but for some reason not actually giving the recipe on the show.  It's been so long, I'd have to listen to it again to be sure.  

Vinnie did mention Amarillo in the current rendition, as well as hop extract for the early bittering.  I think the hop extract is critical if you want to make a clone of the current commercial version.  I brewed one using the original recipe and it seemed far more bitter than the commercial version I had.  Still a fine beer mind you, but it was more like the longshot DIPA than Pliny.  Not quite as harsh as the longshot beer, but not as mellow as the Pliny.  The aroma was absolutely incredible though, it's like I took 20 lbs of citrus zest and threw it in the fermenter.
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: dhacker on February 11, 2010, 01:45:26 PM
Hmmm . .the longer this thread goes on, the more it seems to be going in ill-defined directions!  ;)

So Fred's is the original, or the most current?

Hop extract?? . . as in a substitution for FWHing?


C'mon boys, let's nail this down!  :D
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 11, 2010, 03:19:02 PM
The recipe on Fred's site is the new one that was in Zymurgy this summer.  Fred got that one from Vinnie after the 2009 NHC.  No Chinook and more Simcoe.  No mash hops in the new one

Here is what I brewed in 2006.  Compare to the recipe on Fred's site
11 Gallon Batch.
%     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 85.7    24.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row)              America        1.036      2
  1.8     0.50 lbs. Crystal 40L                   America        1.034     40
  5.4     1.50 lbs. CaraPilsner                   France         1.035     10
  7.1     2.00 lbs. Corn Sugar                    Generic        1.046      0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  3.00 oz.    Chinook                           Whole   13.00  36.8  Mash H
  1.00 oz.    Columbus                          Whole   15.00  20.2  90 min.
  5.00 oz.    warrior                           Whole   15.00  101.0  90 min.
  2.00 oz.    Simcoe                            Whole   13.00  30.1  45 min.
  2.00 oz.    Columbus                          Whole   15.00  29.0  30 min.
  4.00 oz.    Centennial                        Whole   10.50   0.0  0 min.
  2.50 oz.    Simcoe                            Whole   13.00   0.0  0 min.
  6.50 oz.    Columbus                          Whole   15.00   0.0  Dry Hop
  3.50 oz.    Centennial                        Whole   10.50   0.0  Dry Hop
  4.00 oz.    Simcoe                            Whole   13.00   0.0  Dry Hop


Yeast
-----

WYeast 1056 Amercan Ale/Chico




Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: mikeypedersen on February 11, 2010, 04:18:40 PM
That's the same recipe I've always used, except I brew it so that there is 5 gallons of actual beer going into the carboy.  I have also always done the mash hops as FWH because I was never really sure what adding hops to the mash would do.

The recipe itself is also much more heavily dry-hopped, I want to say that I was adding between 5.5 ot 7oz of hops to a 5 gallon batch.  Um Ummmmmm.
Title: Re: Mash Hops vs. FWH
Post by: nyakavt on February 12, 2010, 01:48:24 PM
The recipe on Fred's site is the new one that was in Zymurgy this summer.  Fred got that one from Vinnie after the 2009 NHC.  No Chinook and more Simcoe.  No mash hops in the new one

Thanks for clearing this up, it's hard to sift through all the information out there unless you were around when it came out.