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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: Kaiser on January 26, 2010, 03:35:40 PM

Title: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: Kaiser on January 26, 2010, 03:35:40 PM
Over the past few days I have been reading most of what I can read from Narziss and Back’s Technologie der Wuerzebereitung on Google Books and the amount data given in that book is just amazing.

Here is something I’d like to share:

(http://braukaiser.com/images/misc_forum/malt_crushing_and_polyphenols_from_Narziss.gif)
(source: http://books.google.de/books?id=rlcwl7aS8KYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=technologie+der+w%C3%BCrzebereitung&cd=2#v=onepage&q=&f=false)

It shows the polyphenol concentration of the cast out wort in mg/l (top row) as a function of the way the malt was crushed. The top header is: mash filter (pulverized grist), lautertun crushed dry, lautertun crushed conditioned and wet crushed. As you can see, in this case conditioned malt left 13% less polyhenols in the cast out wort.

While there seems to be a difference in the wort analytics this does not show if there will be a difference in taste. polyphenols are not necessarily and in some other section they of this book they are also considered as contributors to the body of the beer.

I hope I didn’t scare anyone into conditioning their malt now. I just thought that this was an interesting data point which I haven’t seen before.

Kai
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: dean on January 26, 2010, 06:08:42 PM
Over the last week I've been reading practically every book and magazine I have so I can't remember which one or where I read it but it went into some depth about pH creeping up in the mash and how malt conditioning effected it.  I do remember it saying that 2% moisture (misting) added to the grains about 15 to 20 minutes before crushing lessened the release of polyphenols.  It also noted that polyphenols create some astringency.  It also stated that the longer the mash water is allowed to stay in contact with the grain husks more polyphenols are created or released.

I don't know, I'm not a scientist but it makes sense to me and I believe it, especially after doing a couple of overnight mashes and having one which should have been right for my water come out fairly decent except for a finishing astringency.  It tastes good while consuming it, has good mouthfeel going down but it dries my mouth afterward.  Its almost like a bitter but its not really bitter.  Its hard for me to describe it I guess.  Anyway I'm dumping it because I can't bring myself to drink it anymore as I find myself anticipating the astringency everytime I do and I wouldn't give it to anybody either now.   :(

Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: Kaiser on January 26, 2010, 06:16:06 PM
… especially after doing a couple of overnight mashes and having one which should have been right for my water come out fairly decent except for a finishing astringency

It is a well known fact that longer mashes release more polyphenols and that the move to shorter mashing by German brewers has resulted in softer beers. The extreme of this thinking is endosperm mashing or Schrotmaischen, where you only mash the flour and grits first and return the husk fraction late in the mash before it is needed for lautering.

Kai
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: blatz on January 26, 2010, 06:59:02 PM
It is a well known fact that longer mashes release more polyphenols and that the move to shorter mashing by German brewers

how short?
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: Kaiser on January 26, 2010, 07:13:34 PM
how short?

90 - 120 min

Kai
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: tom on January 26, 2010, 07:15:30 PM
… especially after doing a couple of overnight mashes and having one which should have been right for my water come out fairly decent except for a finishing astringency

It is a well known fact that longer mashes release more polyphenols and that the move to shorter mashing by German brewers has resulted in softer beers. The extreme of this thinking is endosperm mashing or Schrotmaischen, where you only mash the flour and grits first and return the husk fraction late in the mash before it is needed for lautering.

Kai


Thanks Kai. How in the heck do they separate the husks?
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: Kaiser on January 26, 2010, 07:53:32 PM
Thanks Kai. How in the heck do they separate the husks?

Tweezers ;)







Most large scale mills already have sieves that separate the husks from the grits before the grist are milled further. It just becomes a matter of diverting the husks into a separate grist case for later addition to the mash. It might be more complicated than that since you are very interested in minimizing the amount of endosperm that stays with the husks. I know of only two breweries that do that: Brauhaus Riegle and Trumer, and I never had any of these beers. It’s just not a commonly used practice.

At some point I want to give it a try. About 50% of the husks will be added back to the mash 10-15 min before lautering. They’ll need some time to convert the few endosperm pieces that are still sticking to the husks. If you are not going to be a purist you could also use rice hulls which would not add any additional starch to the mash.

Kai
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: a10t2 on January 26, 2010, 09:07:15 PM
Kai, do you have access to a mill that separates the husks, or are you going to do it manually?
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: tom on January 26, 2010, 09:20:23 PM
Any idea what size the sieve is?
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: NorthernIke on January 27, 2010, 12:56:52 AM
Mmmmmmm...  Trumer Pils. Gotta try that one Kai!
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 27, 2010, 01:02:20 AM
Kai - you can get Trumer as far east as Chicago.  Maybe you can try some at the NHC if they have it in Minneapolis?
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: Kaiser on January 27, 2010, 01:46:35 AM
I'll have to check out Trumer once I'm over there. As for malt separation at home I'll have to see what options I have and how well they work.

Kai
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 27, 2010, 02:21:27 AM
Trumer is not in MN.  Too bad.
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on January 27, 2010, 04:50:40 AM
But it is in Nürnberg.

Ups wrong country.
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: denny on January 27, 2010, 04:18:25 PM
Mmmmmmm...  Trumer Pils. Gotta try that one Kai!

Not only is it my favorite pils, it's one of my all time favorite beers.  It's on tap several places around Eugene.
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: Kaiser on January 27, 2010, 04:47:44 PM
The question is: Is Trumer such a good Pils b/c they do endosperm mashing or b/c they just happen to brew a great Pils. I can’t imagine that endosperm mashing makes a huge difference. It is not widely employed at all and I did have a few great Pilsners in Germany.

Kai
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: denny on January 27, 2010, 05:24:10 PM
The question is: Is Trumer such a good Pils b/c they do endosperm mashing or b/c they just happen to brew a great Pils. I can’t imagine that endosperm mashing makes a huge difference. It is not widely employed at all and I did have a few great Pilsners in Germany.

Kai


Yeah, that is a good question.  And one we'll maybe never be able to answer.
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: bluesman on January 27, 2010, 05:52:37 PM
I know Carafa can be purchased dehusked, but I'm not sure about Pils. Then there's acid dehusked malt. If Trumer is  producing beer with naked malt, then it is probably commercially available. The question still remains...will it make a difference?
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: jimbo44 on January 28, 2010, 05:31:48 AM
Not only is it my favorite pils, it's one of my all time favorite beers.  It's on tap several places around Eugene.


Name a place it's on tap, would you.  I'd like to try it next time I'm over the hill.
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: Kaiser on January 28, 2010, 12:24:53 PM
I know Carafa can be purchased dehusked, but I'm not sure about Pils. Then there's acid dehusked malt. If Trumer is  producing beer with naked malt, then it is probably commercially available. The question still remains...will it make a difference?

Trumer is not using naket malt. They are seperating husks and endosperm themselves.

Kai
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: tom on January 28, 2010, 04:14:22 PM
But it is in Nürnberg.

Ups wrong country.
It is also in California of the great US of A.
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: denny on January 28, 2010, 04:32:41 PM
Not only is it my favorite pils, it's one of my all time favorite beers.  It's on tap several places around Eugene.


Name a place it's on tap, would you.  I'd like to try it next time I'm over the hill.

Right now, it's a guest tap at Eugene City Brewery.  It's also regularly at Marche and La Perla.
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: denny on January 28, 2010, 04:34:04 PM
But it is in Nürnberg.

Ups wrong country.

They also have a brewery in Berkley CA since they found the water there is an exact duplicate of the water they use in Germany.
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: babalu87 on January 28, 2010, 04:51:00 PM
I have to ask , is there any beer WE (East Coasters) can get regularly that you West Coasters cant?

Wait, another thread..................................
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: dean on January 28, 2010, 05:25:15 PM
I have to ask , is there any beer WE (East Coasters) can get regularly that you West Coasters cant?

Wait, another thread..................................

I don't know about that... I've never seen so many taps in one bar in my life as when I was in CA.  I think its kinda like Mexico... drink the beer, don't drink the water.   :D     JK....
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: stout_fan on February 04, 2010, 01:19:37 PM
Kai,
if 120 minutes is short, I'd hate to see what 'long' is.
Title: Re: malt crushing and wort polyphenols
Post by: Kaiser on February 04, 2010, 02:24:23 PM
Kai,
if 120 minutes is short, I'd hate to see what 'long' is.

mashed used to take 3-4 or even more hours since they would dough in lower than 140 F and also run a number of decoctions.

Kai