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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: roguejim on February 22, 2012, 08:20:59 PM

Title: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: roguejim on February 22, 2012, 08:20:59 PM
I must admit that I've gotten lazy, and have gotten in a dry yeast rut, in particular, overusing US-05.  For those of you who do well in comps, and are willing to sell the farm, what are your "go to" yeast strains for comp-quality APAs and AIPAs?  Just to be clear, I'm not interested so much in anyone's personal favorite strain, but what the comp people choose for comps.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: veldy on February 22, 2012, 08:25:19 PM
US-05, WYeast 1056, White Labs 001 :)

Denny's Choice is good too.  Rogue's Pacman can be good too add can WYeast 1272.

These are my choices anyway.

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Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: denny on February 22, 2012, 08:35:34 PM
After years of telling myself 05 was basically comparable to 1056, I recently did a split batch.  Although it wasn't a blind tasting, I thought 1056 was noticeably cleaner than 05.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: hoser on February 22, 2012, 08:37:56 PM
WLP007 Dry English Ale.  Great attenuation, ferments quick (3-4 days), clean, a little more "characterful" than chico, and floccs almost like WLP002 when finished.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: jmcamerlengo on February 22, 2012, 08:40:16 PM
WLP060 American Ale yeast blend.

Slightly more subdued hop character than 001, leaves a little bit more maltiness and clears the beer better. 
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: veldy on February 22, 2012, 09:41:04 PM
Do you make starters with your liquid yeasts?  You might be tasting the difference between the population of the yeast added more than the difference between the US-05 and 1056.  Then, maybe it is the yeast.

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Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: denny on February 22, 2012, 09:42:21 PM
Do you make starters with your liquid yeasts?  You might be tasting the difference between the population of the yeast added more than the difference between the US-05 and 1056.  Then, maybe it is the yeast.

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Me?  Always.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: udubdawg on February 22, 2012, 10:15:57 PM
so far, WY 1272 appears to be going over the best, and...more importantly...it's my favorite too.

cheers--
--Michael
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: jlap on February 22, 2012, 10:40:20 PM
My Amer. IPA's have done pretty well in some bigger (400 entry) competitions.  For my tastes, 1450 is great.  It has this wonderful mouthfeel that seems to take some of the harsh edges off of the hops.  It doesn't allow the hop aroma to come through as well as 1056 but there's an easy solution for that!  More dry hops!  The other thing I like is that I don't seem to have to use as much crystal malt as I used to with 1056 to get the same malt impression.

Regarding US-05, I totally agree with Denny.  Having done numerous side by sides 1056 is the way to go.  I know a lof of folks really like it but IMO it doesn't make the same quality beer.  If you are serious about doing well in competition, I would go for the liquid yeast (with a starter of course) to give yourself the best shot.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: The Professor on February 23, 2012, 12:29:50 AM
After years of telling myself 05 was basically comparable to 1056, I recently did a split batch.  Although it wasn't a blind tasting, I thought 1056 was noticeably cleaner than 05.

I've always thought so as well. 
The two may have the same basic origins, but I don't see how they drying process would not affect the yeast.  The dry yeast manufacturers have certainly gotten good at delivering a good product, much better than in past years.  But it seems to me that the drying process would surely morph the original yeast into something at least  somewhat different.   Then again, I'm not a biologist... :-\

Re the OP's comments, as far as "getting lazy" with a particular yeast, if you have something you like and it works, using it as a standard isn't being lazy at all.  I have probably 5 or 6 different strains banked that I grow and use from time to time, but at least 95% of my brews (of various types) are made with the same 'house' yeast I've used since the late '80's.   I know what to expect from it, it works in a wide variety of styles, and has always been dependable.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: thebigbaker on February 23, 2012, 12:58:20 AM
I use US-05 in my APAs and AIPAs.  My last APA won bronze in a local homebrew competition here in Denver put on by Dry Dock Brewery/ Brew Hut.  I'm only doing three gallon batches and use the entire packet of yeast.  I haven't tried 1056, so maybe that's what will get me gold next time. 
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: bluesman on February 23, 2012, 01:42:47 AM
I like WY1056 and WLP001 the best. They seem to give me the cleanest flavor profile plus they attenuate fairly well. I also like WLP002 because it floccs out really well, but you have to adjust your mash temp down 2-3 degrees to get the same attenuation as the American strains.

I also agree with Denny in regards to US05. I get a very slight fruitiness from it.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: veldy on February 23, 2012, 01:58:21 AM
Oh, I see now to who it is that I am replying :)

I guess I knew the answer to my question.  I am glad to find you in this great forum.

Tom
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: Hokerer on February 23, 2012, 02:09:20 AM
Oh, I see now to who it is that I am replying :)

Yeah, when I saw your question earlier, all I could think was a standard line from those old cowboy movies...  "you're not from around these parts, are you?"

:)
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: tschmidlin on February 23, 2012, 03:06:08 AM
The two may have the same basic origins, but I don't see how they drying process would not affect the yeast.  The dry yeast manufacturers have certainly gotten good at delivering a good product, much better than in past years.  But it seems to me that the drying process would surely morph the original yeast into something at least  somewhat different.   Then again, I'm not a biologist... :-\
There should not be any genetic effects of drying the yeast (so no morphing into something else), but there are very likely epigenetic effects (changes in gene expression and other non-genetic differences).  I think it would be interesting to compare the results after repitching in identical beers a few times, see if they perform more similarly.  They should in theory.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: The Professor on February 23, 2012, 05:36:06 AM
There should not be any genetic effects of drying the yeast (so no morphing into something else), but there are very likely epigenetic effects (changes in gene expression and other non-genetic differences).  I think it would be interesting to compare the results after repitching in identical beers a few times, see if they perform more similarly.  They should in theory.


That makes sense.  I may have to try that experiment of repitching the dry and wet versions through multiple batches.  I've often wondered about this, especially given the general consensus that 05 seems to finish dryer than WL01 or WY1056.

Interesting beasties, these yeasties.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: dbarber on February 23, 2012, 01:29:41 PM
I almost always use 1056 in my apa and aipa.  I once did a split batch for a beer dinner using 05 and 1056.  The 1056 was much cleaner and the 05 was more fruity.  I served the 05 first and kept the remaining 1056 for myself.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: hoser on February 23, 2012, 02:09:56 PM
I almost always use 1056 in my apa and aipa.  I once did a split batch for a beer dinner using 05 and 1056.  The 1056 was much cleaner and the 05 was more fruity. 

I have noted this as well.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: richardt on February 23, 2012, 02:22:16 PM
With US-05 being perceived as "more fruity" that just suggests to me that it was "more stressed" during the first 24-48 hours of pitching.  That could be due to underpitching (using one instead of two packets), not hydrating the dry yeast (to help reform the cell walls before being pitched into high gravity wort), and having to rev up cellular metabolism from a dormant state (unlike the liquid yeast which has been reved up metabolically in a starter prior to pitching).  Most of us are lazy and just dump dry US-05 right into the wort.  Kind of like pushing freshly-hatched birds out of the nest, i.e., "fly or die."

IMO, a true side-by-side comparison would involve making a starter of 1056 and US-05 prior to pitching.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: Hokerer on February 23, 2012, 02:30:28 PM
IMO, a true side-by-side comparison would involve making a starter of 1056 and US-05 prior to pitching.

rehydrating is one thing, but making a starter for a dry yeast actually hurts things
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: thebigbaker on February 23, 2012, 02:50:50 PM
The last 5 gallon batch I did (10/2011) was an APA @ 1.052 using US-05.  I could be wrong, but I don't think at this gravity, using a full pack of US-05 isn't under-pitching.  As I recall, I didn't taste any "fruitiness" and there's no notation of it in my notes for that brew.  The times I've used US-05 for my 3 gallon batches have all turned out great.  I'm going to try 1056 with my next 3gal APA to see if there is a difference.  I've been very pleased with the way my APAs have turned out w/ US-05, but I'll try anything that could make my beers even better!
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: richardt on February 23, 2012, 05:25:30 PM
IMO, a true side-by-side comparison would involve making a starter of 1056 and US-05 prior to pitching.

rehydrating is one thing, but making a starter for a dry yeast actually hurts things

That's not my understanding.  It just doesn't have the 30 minutes of glycogen to give it the extra "kick."  It hurts nothing and allows you to grow your numbers to the desired level.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/can-you-make-starter-dry-yeast-269561/ (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/can-you-make-starter-dry-yeast-269561/)

Again, I think those with the perception that US-05 is "more fruity" should work on proper rehydration, attemperation, and pitch rates if they're looking for a cleaner beer.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: hoser on February 23, 2012, 05:33:28 PM
IMO, a true side-by-side comparison would involve making a starter of 1056 and US-05 prior to pitching.

rehydrating is one thing, but making a starter for a dry yeast actually hurts things

That's not my understanding.  It just doesn't have the 30 minutes of glycogen to give it the extra "kick."  It hurts nothing and allows you to grow your numbers to the desired level.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/can-you-make-starter-dry-yeast-269561/ (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/can-you-make-starter-dry-yeast-269561/)

Again, I think those with the perception that US-05 is "more fruity" should work on proper rehydration, attemperation, and pitch rates if they're looking for a cleaner beer.

I am not sure creating a starter would be a true side-by-side comparision, either.  I don't think creating a starter hurts dry yeast, but it changes things.  Using the same pitching rate of viable healthy cells with as accurate a cell count as possible would probably be more accurate, but difficult to do at home.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: bluesman on February 23, 2012, 05:56:05 PM
I agree with Dr. Clayton Cone on the rehydration issue.

Rehydrating the yeast is the best way to get the most yield from the dry yeast, but I'm not convinced that making a starter from dry yeast will make better (cleaner) beer and to the contrary may only deplete valuable glycogen reserves prior to ferment and therefore stress the yeast upon fermentation of the wort.

YMMV
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: richardt on February 23, 2012, 06:18:44 PM
"We recommend that the rehydrated yeast be added to the wort within 30
minutes. We have built into each cell a large amount of glycogen and
trehalose that give the yeast a burst of energy to kick off the growth
cycle when it is in the wort. It is quickly used up if the yeast is
rehydrated for more than 30 minutes. There is no damage done here if it is
not immediatly add to the wort. You just do not get the added benefit of
that sudden burst of energy."  --Dr. Cone

Rehydrate and pitch within 30 minutes or you will have NO "valuable glycogen reserves" to help kick start the ferment.
Yeast starters may not have yeast cells with glycogen and trehalose reserves; but, they do not need them since the wort (in both the starter flask and the fermentor) contains the sugars needed.  I don't follow your statement that dry yeast which has been placed in a starter (and its reserves used up) would be any more "stressed" than liquid yeast which has been placed in a starter.  I maintain that both would be merrily chugging along and "ready to go" when pitched.

I do get that a starter for dry yeast isn't necessary so long as rehydration with proper temp and moderately-hard water is performed (adequate cell counts) and proper pitch rates are determined (# if packets for batch size and gravity).

I do think JZ and Chris White's recent book "Yeast" may be overstating the mantra that "dry yeast in a starter = BAD," when it may be more correctly stated that when "properly rehydrated, and promptly pitched, dry yeast doesn't need a starter." 

Re-read what the experts have to say, and keep in mind that some of them have skin in the game and their answers may reflect that.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: roguejim on February 23, 2012, 07:37:14 PM
The last APA I entered in a BJCP comp was Fred's Late Hopped Amarillo pale ale, except that I used 1 packet of US-05.  The beer's gravity was 1.047.  I always aerate.  Some of the comments were that the beer had "esters of pear".  I didn't perceive these comments to be necessarily negative.  It took the Blue Ribbon.
Title: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: denny on February 23, 2012, 09:14:08 PM
The last APA I entered in a BJCP comp was Fred's Late Hopped Amarillo pale ale, except that I used 1 packet of US-05.  The beer's gravity was 1.047.  I always aerate.  Some of the comments were that the beer had "esters of pear".  I didn't perceive these comments to be necessarily negative.  It took the Blue Ribbon.

Pear esters are a common observation with 05.


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Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: johnf on February 23, 2012, 09:49:54 PM
My personal preference and what I use in competition, which are always the same thing, is 1272.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: gordonstrong on February 23, 2012, 10:36:06 PM
I like Wyeast 1272 in an AIPA and Wyeast 1968 fermented cool (62F) in an APA.
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: narcout on February 23, 2012, 11:34:34 PM
It took the Blue Ribbon.

For what it's worth, I've also won a ribbon with an APA fermented with US-05.  Though it was a white ribbon and not a blue one. :'(
Title: Re: APAs...AIPAs...Comp Yeast Strains?
Post by: gmac on February 24, 2012, 03:40:19 AM
I must admit that I've gotten lazy, and have gotten in a dry yeast rut, in particular, overusing US-05.  For those of you who do well in comps, and are willing to sell the farm, what are your "go to" yeast strains for comp-quality APAs and AIPAs?  Just to be clear, I'm not interested so much in anyone's personal favorite strain, but what the comp people choose for comps.

I'm also going to enter an APA and AIPA in some upcoming comps.  Since we may be competing against each other, I'd suggest any German Hefeweizen yeast to get that nice hop/clove/banana thing going... ;)

I've done well with WLP007 and WLP001.