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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: Kaiser on January 28, 2010, 08:01:41 PM

Title: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: Kaiser on January 28, 2010, 08:01:41 PM
Does anyone have the official instructions/data sheet for that product. I went to their web site but there is very little information. I remember that more of the links on their web-site used to work.


Kai
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: blatz on January 28, 2010, 08:07:30 PM
this blows up big enough to read it:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/i/m/image_2771.jpg
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: ndcube on January 28, 2010, 08:31:09 PM
Try this:
http://www.fivestarchemicals.com/tech/fivetwo.pdf
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: Kaiser on January 28, 2010, 08:38:05 PM
Thanks.

Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: ndcube on January 28, 2010, 08:38:36 PM
"52 is a proprietary blend of food-grade phosphate buffers (similar to brewer’s salts) that
will lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your
water."

Maybe they should make one that works "regardless of the starting alkalinity".
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: Kaiser on January 28, 2010, 09:14:10 PM
I finally got the water analysis from a 300 ppm 5.2  buffer sample. This is a 0.03% w/w solution:

(http://braukaiser.com/images/misc_forum/52_buffer_analysis.gif)

large image (http://braukaiser.com/images/misc_forum/52_buffer_analysis.gif)

As expected it is a sodium phosphate salt. The phosphate is not showing up since I did went with the standard W-6 test and did not add phosphate. But that part of the buffer was known anyway.

I’m not sure if the 130 ppm total dissolved solids are correct. I added 300 ppm of the buffer but since sodium phosphates are hygroscopic I assume that there is some water bound the “dry” powder.

The suggested use rate is 2 oz (56 g) in 31 gal (117 l). This is ~477 ppm in the final beer and since ~21% of that 477 ppm is sodium your sodium level increases by 100 ppm. If this is a concern or not depends on the sodium level of the water and beer style, I guess. I expected worse.

There is also some bicarbonate in the sample but this is only b/c there was atmospheric CO2 dissolved in the water. Some of that will have to convert to bicarbonate of the pH is higher than 4.

Kai



Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: tom on January 28, 2010, 09:25:36 PM
When I moved into Denver I had to deal with soft water with low alkalinity. A friend gave me some pH 5.2 to try.
I mashed in a porter and its mash pH was 4.90 so I added 1 tablespoon of 5.2, stirred it in and gave it 5-10 minutes to do its magic and I rechecked the mash pH, it was 4.90. I added another Tbs, pH 4.90. Added a third Tbs, mash pH 4.94. Woohoo!
So, in my experience, pH5.2 doesn't work to increase the mash pH when brewing dark beers with low alkalinity water. YMMV
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: blatz on January 28, 2010, 09:26:26 PM
interesting as Jamilz always commented that the beers he made with it were 'salty'
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: Kaiser on January 28, 2010, 09:34:25 PM
So, in my experience, pH5.2 doesn't work to increase the mash pH when brewing dark beers with low alkalinity water. YMMV

It has been said by many knowledgeble brewer/chemists: you cannot make a good 5.2 buffer out of phosphate salts.

5.2 does not act as a buffer in the mash. It seems to act as a pH limiter which keeps the pH from rising above 5.8. I also believe that it does that trough a reaction with the water's calcium and not through the workings of a classic buffer. I really have to get going and publish the data I have to show that 5.2 doesn not do what it is expected to do but that it still can show improvements for some brewers.

If you use 5.2 and your mash is at 5.2 you can also leave it out next time. Most likely your mash will still be around 5.2.

Kai
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: beersk on January 28, 2010, 09:57:21 PM
interesting as Jamilz always commented that the beers he made with it were 'salty'

Very interesting that that should come up.  I've had a similar thought before when I've been drinking a beer where I used the 5.2.  It was an amber ale if I recall correctly.
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: ndcube on January 29, 2010, 01:16:31 PM
When you check the pH after using 5.2 it should read ~5.5 at room temp, correct?

Is it specified what temp it "locks" the pH in at?
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: Kaiser on January 29, 2010, 01:26:56 PM
Yes, you argue that. But that is not happening either.

Kai
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: dean on January 29, 2010, 02:28:07 PM
So if I read the report right, 5.2 is basically non-iodine table salt? 
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: Kaiser on January 29, 2010, 02:38:15 PM
Only the sodium part.

Kai
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: dean on January 29, 2010, 02:45:23 PM
I didn't see anything else notable in the report... a small amount of bicarbonate, is there something not listed?  Or is table salt not the same as sodium phosphate?
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: Kaiser on January 29, 2010, 02:54:28 PM
I didn't see anything else notable in the report... a small amount of bicarbonate, is there something not listed?  Or is table salt not the same as sodium phosphate?

table salt is sodium chloride

Kai
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: dean on January 29, 2010, 03:17:27 PM
I didn't see anything else notable in the report... a small amount of bicarbonate, is there something not listed?  Or is table salt not the same as sodium phosphate?

table salt is sodium chloride

Kai

 :-[   :D  I guess its a little obvious that I didn't take much chemistry in school?   :D  Thanks for clearing that up for me Kai, I'm trying to pick up what I can from you guys.   :)

Btw... the only sodium I can remember from school (middle school chemistry) was something that looked metalic, aluminum like.  It actually came in the shape of a solid cylinder.  The teacher toook out his pocket knife and cut off a little piece of it and told us not to do what he was about to show us.  He dropped the little sliver of whatever it was into a sink filled with water and it fizzed for a second and then BOOM!  It sent a gyser at least 6 feet into the air !  It was kinda cool so I've always remembered that.   ;D

Edited to add:  I don't know what it was exactly but I always thought it would be kinda handy for fishing.   ;D :D
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: Kaiser on January 29, 2010, 04:01:56 PM
This is a fun experiment that many of us saw in school and some of us wanted to get our hands on some sodium afterwards.

Elementary sodium is so reactive that it quickly pulls the oxygen from water molecules when it comes in contact with them. The result is sodium oxide and hydrogen. The latter ignites and burns explosively. The sodium oxide will react further with water and will become sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) which raises the pH. If there also is CO2 in the water sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) will form.

This is very similar to the recent tread about the addition of elementary sulfur to the water/mash only that sodium is a metal and will end up raising the pH.

Inorganic chemistry is fascinating, isn’t it. I’m lucky that I survived my childhood years unharmed.

Kai

Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: Hokerer on January 29, 2010, 04:43:19 PM
I didn't see anything else notable in the report... a small amount of bicarbonate, is there something not listed?  Or is table salt not the same as sodium phosphate?

table salt is sodium chloride not sodium phosphate
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: redbeerman on January 29, 2010, 06:04:04 PM
I didn't see anything else notable in the report... a small amount of bicarbonate, is there something not listed?  Or is table salt not the same as sodium phosphate?

table salt is sodium chloride not sodium phosphate

Is there an echo in here? ;D
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: Hokerer on January 29, 2010, 07:00:15 PM
Is there an echo in here? ;D

Oops, yeah.  Got caught in the page 1 page 2 thing.  Thought post I was answering was the last one but it turns out it was just the last one on page 1.
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: a10t2 on January 29, 2010, 07:23:34 PM
He dropped the little sliver of whatever it was into a sink filled with water and it fizzed for a second and then BOOM!  It sent a gyser at least 6 feet into the air !  It was kinda cool so I've always remembered that.

If you ever get the chance, have someone do that demo for you with rubidium. You have to pour it into the water while still under mineral oil, though - otherwise it will auto-ignite in air. ;D
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: dean on January 30, 2010, 12:26:05 AM
This is a bit off subject but... how many of you can remember burning christmas paper?  When I was a kid it was something I looked forward to because it wasn't the same as the paper used today and the flames produced were the same color as the paper, the new paper just burns like regular paper... no real mineral content I guess?

Rubidium huh... is it something I can buy legally?  When I was a kid I wanted to make the biggest gun possible believe it or not, then I saw the movie about the moon gun and it kinda deflated my ego.   :D  I love shooting rifles and guns of any kind, I hope I always feel that way... its as fun and maybe even more relaxing than homebrewing.  I guess its just something on a personal level that I've always been able to do well so I've always enjoyed it.  But I have to admit, I'd love to own a .50 cal and/or an AA12... and no... I'm not a psycho or anything, I just like them for what they are.
Title: Re: Fivestar's 5.2 mash buffer
Post by: a10t2 on January 30, 2010, 06:46:44 AM
Rubidium huh... is it something I can buy legally?

Buy it legally, sure. Shipping is a different issue. You might have to distill your own: http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=8699200&pfx= (http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=8699200&pfx=)