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General Category => Going Pro => Topic started by: afacini on March 09, 2012, 05:33:04 PM

Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: afacini on March 09, 2012, 05:33:04 PM
So let's say you have a full business plan written out, got some estimates on equipment, a rough idea of real estate costs (inc. renovations), and a willing investor. The dream!!

Now is the cart-before-before-the-horse question: In what order do you proceed?

For the sake of argument, let's say you can purchase the real estate at any time. When do you do this?

I am aware that TTB is absolutely overwhelmed with requests, as are many local authorities. The process of getting certified and cleared could take up to a year, according to new breweries I've talked to.

So should you go and get your property and proceed on renovations while proceeding with TTB? Or is it a strict one-before-the-other situation?

This is something I'm still not clear about, and any insight is greatly appreciated.

EDIT: My current understanding is this...
Close on real estate--> Submit TTB application --> Receive TTB license --> Submit local app --> Receive local license --> Complete construction, renovation, etc. --> Open for business

It might be easier to just make corrections on this instead. Thanks again.
 
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: anthony on March 09, 2012, 05:39:28 PM
The order is typically: real estate, architect/construction, local health department, TTB, state licensing, local licensing.

Some parts of the order can vary depending on your state, but TTB requires you to supply either a lease that specifically states you will be placing a brewery on the property or a deed showing that you own the property. The TTB also requires a floor plan. And often times, the local health department will want to check over all of that before you start construction. In many states, state licensing requires you to submit your approved Brewer's notice from the TTB and in many areas, local licensing requires you to submit your state licensing.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: afacini on March 09, 2012, 05:45:18 PM
TTB requires you to supply either a lease that specifically states you will be placing a brewery on the property or a deed showing that you own the property. The TTB also requires a floor plan. And often times, the local health department will want to check over all of that before you start construction.

Thank you! This is very important, something I did hear once but forgot about.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: a10t2 on March 09, 2012, 05:47:02 PM
Step One is to incorporate and register your trade name (if applicable) and trade marks. If you even discuss your plans with anyone else without those protections in place, you're putting your whole business in jeopardy.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 09, 2012, 06:36:49 PM
Step One is to incorporate and register your trade name (if applicable) and trade marks. If you even discuss your plans with anyone else without those protections in place, you're putting your whole business in jeopardy.
Some local pros have said the first hire is your Attorney. Which meshes nicely with Step One above.

Second hire was the Accountant.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: afacini on March 09, 2012, 07:55:48 PM
Alright, thanks again everyone. Here's a revised road map... thoughts?


So that the goal is to prepare everything necessary while the TTB and local licenses are pending. When you get the go-ahead to brew, that is the last roadblock. Does this make sense?
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: a10t2 on March 09, 2012, 08:35:01 PM
I'd submit the brewer's packet the day you sign your lease/mortgage. Average lead time at TTB is about 115 days right now.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: tschmidlin on March 09, 2012, 08:39:07 PM
I wouldn't hire until licensing is set - no point in hiring anyone until you are allowed to brew, and you won't be allowed to brew until you have licensing.  Depending on the planned size you may want to hire some key players or be doing interviews before licensing, but not much before since licensing can take a long time.  You'll know more as you go along though, so your tentative plan is fine I think (if you submit right away as Sean suggests).
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on March 09, 2012, 10:54:58 PM
I don't mean to sound dickish - so please don't take this the wrong way. But if you still haven't learned to brew all grain yet I feel the compulsion to dissuade you from even considering opening a brewery. There is so much to learn to make a good beer on a large scale and even though extract brewing is a feasible approach it is way more expensive to pull off. Give it a few years before you start making any serious plans. There are way too many breweries starting up now that the dream of opening a brewery is in front of actually learning the brewing process, and in todays tight market that is a sure sign of failure.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: a10t2 on March 09, 2012, 11:50:58 PM
But if you still haven't learned to brew all grain yet I feel the compulsion to dissuade you from even considering opening a brewery.

Solid advice, *if* you're planning on doing the actual brewing.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on March 10, 2012, 01:21:19 AM
Step One is to incorporate and register your trade name (if applicable) and trade marks. If you even discuss your plans with anyone else without those protections in place, you're putting your whole business in jeopardy.
I was on short side of the stick with this one.
Now we have two trademarks.

TTB tells you you need to be 90% done with your construction and equipment before you apply for license.
We started in rented facility that was used before for food preparation and ready for us.
It was only 1000 sf but it was place to start for us.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: afacini on March 15, 2012, 08:11:56 PM
I don't mean to sound dickish - so please don't take this the wrong way. But if you still haven't learned to brew all grain yet I feel the compulsion to dissuade you from even considering opening a brewery. There is so much to learn to make a good beer on a large scale and even though extract brewing is a feasible approach it is way more expensive to pull off. Give it a few years before you start making any serious plans. There are way too many breweries starting up now that the dream of opening a brewery is in front of actually learning the brewing process, and in todays tight market that is a sure sign of failure.

Likewise, I don't want to sound dickish, but there is a very thick layer of nay-saying that goes along with wanting to brew professionally. And I'm very, very fed up of running into it at every level. This isn't a blast to your message - not in the least. I understand why you're trying to caution me. This is a vent about my experiences in the past year or so.

Brewing schools are backed-up many years out or are prohibitively expensive. Local breweries aren't interested in even unpaid interns who have a homebrewing-only background (and certainly not outside standard business hours). Funding is non-existent for new businesses in general, let alone startups with the high-risk element and steep startup costs of breweries.

And of course, the cycle: if you don't have the education, you won't get work in a brewery, and if you don't have work in a brewery, who's going to fund you?

The best shot I've got is to brew my ass off as much as I can afford to, refining the same recipes over and over, learning everything I can along the way. In the meanwhile, I am trying to organize a lot of complex information and prepare an ironclad business plan. These things likely take years.

In the US, folks don't get into craft beer (and brewing) until their 20s, which is a hell of a late time to become involved in something with earnest intentions to become a professional. With all the roadblocks -- many of which I admit are products of our economy, the current craft beer explosion, and perhaps even where I'm located geographically -- it's almost too much to even dream about going pro.

But, from where I sit, "f##k that." I'm working a desk job (which I should be thankful I have, even) but it's a classic go-nowhere situation. I have no savings nor a rich benefactor - only a passion for brewing, and however far my hard work and planning will take me. I'm serious about this, but realistic at the same time.

So, with feeling, a large disclaimer to attach to all of my question posts, talks with BA reps, and conversations with industry:

Now, just to be sure, I really appreciate your time here on the forums, and your concern about my brewing experience. This isn't a blast-back to you, it's a general vent about what I've run into. (Granted, it may have been more appropriate for a PM, since this was a thread about timeline expectations.) It's also my raison for being here. I've never properly explained myself, mostly because: 1) see the nay-sayings above, and 2) not wanting to go on and on about myself needlessly.

Phew. That was longer than expected. I hope it doesn't come off too angry, it's just frustration. I'm sure I'm not the only one to experience the many rude dismissals from industry personnel (equipment manufacturers and real estate folks, especially). It's almost too much to bear sometimes.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: narvin on March 15, 2012, 09:01:35 PM

Phew. That was longer than expected. I hope it doesn't come off too angry, it's just frustration. I'm sure I'm not the only one to experience the many rude dismissals from industry personnel (equipment manufacturers and real estate folks, especially). It's almost too much to bear sometimes.

I think it's not necessarily meant to be rude.  Just take into account that these people are also doing their jobs, and if you don't have any money they're not going to be terribly interested in spending their time on you.  Come back with some investors and things will change.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: afacini on March 15, 2012, 09:20:44 PM

Phew. That was longer than expected. I hope it doesn't come off too angry, it's just frustration. I'm sure I'm not the only one to experience the many rude dismissals from industry personnel (equipment manufacturers and real estate folks, especially). It's almost too much to bear sometimes.

I think it's not necessarily meant to be rude.  Just take into account that these people are also doing their jobs, and if you don't have any money they're not going to be terribly interested in spending their time on you.  Come back with some investors and things will change.

True enough. I try to be apologetic and prompt with people whose time I'm taking up with estimate-gathering, etc. It's one thing, however, to be understandably busy and unwilling to talk at-length. It's another to be summarily dismissive and to add passing insults.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: toddster on April 18, 2012, 11:14:27 PM
I own a business and whenever I post an ad I get a few responses that they will work for me but have no experience.  Which means they have no skills and they expect me to provide the training.
My question to you is what skills do you have that makes you qualified to work at a brewery. Drinking beer isn't a qualification.
What skills do you have? Did you go to college or trade school. Do you really want a blue collar job that is hard work? Brewing is a small part of owning a brewery.
Maybe you change your approach and quit whining about why you can't get a job in a brewery as a brewer. I would put my name on the list at one of the brewing schools and get a degree in subject that is a good fit for a brewer.
Your only 24 and I hired kid your age last year and he couldn't keep up with one of my 36 hour days I get to do on occasion and I had to send him home to sleep while I finished up the job. Brewing like any other blue collar job is hard physical work.
I will be opening a brewery one day but I doubt I will be the brewer, there will be many other thinks like cleaning, welding, remodeling and repairing things that my life long resume will be better suited for.  Todd
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: afacini on April 19, 2012, 12:48:37 AM
I own a business and whenever I post an ad I get a few responses that they will work for me but have no experience.  Which means they have no skills and they expect me to provide the training.
My question to you is what skills do you have that makes you qualified to work at a brewery. Drinking beer isn't a qualification.
What skills do you have? Did you go to college or trade school. Do you really want a blue collar job that is hard work? Brewing is a small part of owning a brewery.
Maybe you change your approach and quit whining about why you can't get a job in a brewery as a brewer. I would put my name on the list at one of the brewing schools and get a degree in subject that is a good fit for a brewer.
Your only 24 and I hired kid your age last year and he couldn't keep up with one of my 36 hour days I get to do on occasion and I had to send him home to sleep while I finished up the job. Brewing like any other blue collar job is hard physical work.
I will be opening a brewery one day but I doubt I will be the brewer, there will be many other thinks like cleaning, welding, remodeling and repairing things that my life long resume will be better suited for.  Todd

In the interest of trying not to sound like I'm whining (thanks for that, by the way)...

I went to a 4-year university.
The only appreciable skills I have towards brewing itself is my limited experience in homebrewing.
Yes, I really would enjoy a blue collar job where sweat + long days = satisfaction. I don't like or appreciate white collar working life.

As I wrote above, I'm trying. If homebrewing like a maniac is the best I can afford (financially / logistically) at the moment, that's what I'll do. When I can, I will see if I can add on a second job working for free in a local brewery. Like you said, however, 36-hour work days don't exactly jive with having to have a day job to pay rent and loans.

Also, I'm not expecting to step into brewing without any sort of formal lesson/experience. Starting a brewery takes so much more than the actual brewing, and I know that. Like you, it probably won't be me behind-the-wheel of the brewhouse. But I want to be ready to pitch in wherever I can.

I'm sorry your 24-year old didn't work out. But assuming that I'm anything like that person is like assuming that, since you own your own business, you're probably greedy. I know, because once I had an experience with a greedy business owner. Side-note: in college, I worked 8-hour overnights Mon-Thurs on top of my doing school during the day.

Basically, this is exactly the kind of response that set off my first post (which is over a month old at this point).

Todd, best of luck opening that brewery. That's why we're all here. I hope the initial part of this post went some length to help (before it got off-track).
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 19, 2012, 01:38:50 AM
I own a business and whenever I post an ad I get a few responses that they will work for me but have no experience.  Which means they have no skills and they expect me to provide the training.
My question to you is what skills do you have that makes you qualified to work at a brewery. Drinking beer isn't a qualification.
What skills do you have? Did you go to college or trade school. Do you really want a blue collar job that is hard work? Brewing is a small part of owning a brewery.
Maybe you change your approach and quit whining about why you can't get a job in a brewery as a brewer. I would put my name on the list at one of the brewing schools and get a degree in subject that is a good fit for a brewer.
Your only 24 and I hired kid your age last year and he couldn't keep up with one of my 36 hour days I get to do on occasion and I had to send him home to sleep while I finished up the job. Brewing like any other blue collar job is hard physical work.
I will be opening a brewery one day but I doubt I will be the brewer, there will be many other thinks like cleaning, welding, remodeling and repairing things that my life long resume will be better suited for.  Todd

In the interest of trying not to sound like I'm whining (thanks for that, by the way)...

I went to a 4-year university.
The only appreciable skills I have towards brewing itself is my limited experience in homebrewing.
Yes, I really would enjoy a blue collar job where sweat + long days = satisfaction. I don't like or appreciate white collar working life.

As I wrote above, I'm trying. If homebrewing like a maniac is the best I can afford (financially / logistically) at the moment, that's what I'll do. When I can, I will see if I can add on a second job working for free in a local brewery. Like you said, however, 36-hour work days don't exactly jive with having to have a day job to pay rent and loans.

Also, I'm not expecting to step into brewing without any sort of formal lesson/experience. Starting a brewery takes so much more than the actual brewing, and I know that. Like you, it probably won't be me behind-the-wheel of the brewhouse. But I want to be ready to pitch in wherever I can.

I'm sorry your 24-year old didn't work out. But assuming that I'm anything like that person is like assuming that, since you own your own business, you're probably greedy. I know, because once I had an experience with a greedy business owner. Side-note: in college, I worked 8-hour overnights Mon-Thurs on top of my doing school during the day.

Basically, this is exactly the kind of response that set off my first post (which is over a month old at this point).

Todd, best of luck opening that brewery. That's why we're all here. I hope the initial part of this post went some length to help (before it got off-track).

For what it's worth, I didn't detect any whining, but rather frustration with all of the nay saying and I don't blame you. I have no desire to get into brewing on a commercial basis, but if I ever did, I would go elsewhere for advice.  Not trying to stir up trouble, but there aren't a lot of positive vibes in here directed toward anyone that's thinking of getting into the business. Good luck in your endeavors.
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 19, 2012, 01:45:17 AM
When are you not trying to stir up trouble, bo? Honestly I always thought that was the main reason you were here.

I have been brewing professionally for going on two years (my own business) and I can assure you the naysaying is warranted. Im not saying I would do it differently, because I wouldn't. But I am also fortunate in my circumstances.

I also have a hard time understanding why someone would fall in love with idea of brewing before they have mastered the craft. The craft is 99% of the product. And the naysayers are only naysaying because it's a tight market, a lot of work, little money, a huge investment and a huge risk of failure. Not sure why it would be wrong to naysay that circumstance, seems like honesty to me.

All that said, I'd be happy to help you with my experience in anyway I can. Feel free to pm me and I can send you my email address and help asich as possible or at least get you in touch with folks who might know the answer.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 19, 2012, 01:50:08 AM
When are you not trying to stir up trouble, bo? Honestly I always thought that was the main reason you were here.

With all due respect, I am much more respectful to people in here than you are. I even keep my cool when I am called names that the mods never do anything about. It's very one sided.
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 19, 2012, 01:58:25 AM
"all due respect" that's rich! Hahaha! Pretty funny too.

I am sorry if you were called names. I did not see that. Wish you would have reported it. We do not tolerate that.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 19, 2012, 02:01:11 AM
"all due respect" that's rich! Hahaha! Pretty funny too.

I am sorry if you were called names. I did not see that. Wish you would have reported it. We do not tolerate that.

With a little more due respect, bull$hit. You couldn't have missed it.
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 19, 2012, 02:10:58 AM
I don't get it. It wasn't as funny as the other post.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 19, 2012, 02:14:47 AM
I don't get it. It wasn't as funny as the other post.

That's probably why you think I'm always trying to stir things up. You don't get it. 
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 19, 2012, 02:18:14 AM
Nope. That's not it. But I do get what you were trying to say now and I apologize if I missed something. I honestly do not recall ever seeing you being involved in a name calling incident. If it happened and I was involved with the thread I assure you it was an oversight and I sincerely apologize.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 19, 2012, 02:22:12 AM
Nope. That's not it. But I do get what you were trying to say now and I apologize if I missed something. I honestly do not recall ever seeing you being involved in a name calling incident. If it happened and I was involved with the thread I assure you it was an oversight and I sincerely apologize.

It's really not a problem, but I appreciate your apology.  If it was, I would have said something about it a long time ago. Hey, it's an online forum. If you aren't a little thick skinned, you have no business being in one.

Cheers.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on April 19, 2012, 02:26:03 AM
Now kids, back to the topic.
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 19, 2012, 02:27:10 AM
If it ever happens again please let me know personally. I agree, we need to be thick skinned. But name calling is just BS.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: boulderbrewer on April 19, 2012, 04:38:52 AM
When are you not trying to stir up trouble, bo? Honestly I always thought that was the main reason you were here.

With all due respect, I am much more respectful to people in here than you are. I even keep my cool when I am called names that the mods never do anything about. It's very one sided.

I swear it wasn't me.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: euge on April 19, 2012, 08:16:44 AM
We gotta watch the spring-fever around here... :o

To the OP- I say start to brewing all grain right now! And save some money for the next few years while you gauge your brewing skills. There is a lot to learn and the transition to AG isn't as easy as many imply. In the mean time lay the groundwork nice and neat; when you're ready you'll also be ready to train as well. I hate to see a midlife crisis at 24! It's bad enough later on...

Cheers!
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 19, 2012, 01:08:21 PM
One thing I will say is I wish I was doing this at 24 rather than 42. Speaking off midlife crisis.  :o
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on April 19, 2012, 07:50:32 PM
...I hired kid your age last year and he couldn't keep up with one of my 36 hour days I get to do on occasion and I had to send him home to sleep while I finished up the job...

I always thought that was the best attribute of being a young gun - motivation and a strong back!
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: wiley on April 20, 2012, 08:30:56 PM
I've seen a number of posts in this forum (and others) that seem to discourage and dissuade young hopefuls from starting a brewery. Truth be told, brewing and taking a brewery from nothing to something is probably over-romanticized, and is some of the hardest work a person could seek to endure. I, like Major, favor realistic anecdotes for someone looking to enter the brewing industry.

However, I do have a small chip on my shoulder: being 28 and in the process of starting a brewery for over 2 years now, I've seen a growing sentiment from older and middle aged folks (and frankly, many baby boomers) to be cynical about the ability of someone in their mid 20's to be successful -- at building a brewery or anything for that matter. While generation 'Y' may exhibit behaviors and tendencies that reinforce the cynicism, I'd like to post a simple reminder about a couple of people that took some chances in their mid 20's, and have since accomplished some great things.

“The world is moving so fast that the person who says it can’t be done is generally interrupted by the person who is already doing it.” Elbert Hubbard

Avery Brewing Company: started by Adam Avery at age 27.
Oskar Blues: started by Dale Katechis at age 28.
New Belgium: started by Jeff Lebesch at age 27.
Sierra Nevada: started by Ken Grossman at age 25.
Anchor Steam: purchased by Fritz at age 28.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: morticaixavier on April 20, 2012, 08:37:10 PM
I think there is a parallel here with the advice one receives when the first child is on the way. It's all about how hard it is, how little sleep you will get, how much it will cost, etc. It's not that people are trying to discourage you as much as they don't want you to look back and say 'why didn't anyone tell me it would be so hard?'

It's all true, I don't sleep, have no money and have never worked so hard (a child for me, not a brewery but same same) but I wouldn't trade it. I think Major and the rest of the dream catchers on here would feel the same way about their 'babies'.

You can imagine how wonderful it will be, it's harder to imagine how hard so everyone is trying to 'help out'.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 20, 2012, 11:33:26 PM
I've seen a number of posts in this forum (and others) that seem to discourage and dissuade young hopefuls from starting a brewery. Truth be told, brewing and taking a brewery from nothing to something is probably over-romanticized, and is some of the hardest work a person could seek to endure. I, like Major, favor realistic anecdotes for someone looking to enter the brewing industry.

However, I do have a small chip on my shoulder: being 28 and in the process of starting a brewery for over 2 years now, I've seen a growing sentiment from older and middle aged folks (and frankly, many baby boomers) to be cynical about the ability of someone in their mid 20's to be successful -- at building a brewery or anything for that matter. While generation 'Y' may exhibit behaviors and tendencies that reinforce the cynicism, I'd like to post a simple reminder about a couple of people that took some chances in their mid 20's, and have since accomplished some great things.

“The world is moving so fast that the person who says it can’t be done is generally interrupted by the person who is already doing it.” Elbert Hubbard

Avery Brewing Company: started by Adam Avery at age 27.
Oskar Blues: started by Dale Katechis at age 28.
New Belgium: started by Jeff Lebesch at age 27.
Sierra Nevada: started by Ken Grossman at age 25.
Anchor Steam: purchased by Fritz at age 28.

Well, I'm older than you and commend you for trying this. If it fails, pull yourself back up and try again. Your examples prove that it can be done. Good luck.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 20, 2012, 11:55:47 PM
I think there is a parallel here with the advice one receives when the first child is on the way. It's all about how hard it is, how little sleep you will get, how much it will cost, etc. It's not that people are trying to discourage you as much as they don't want you to look back and say 'why didn't anyone tell me it would be so hard?'

It's all true, I don't sleep, have no money and have never worked so hard (a child for me, not a brewery but same same) but I wouldn't trade it. I think Major and the rest of the dream catchers on here would feel the same way about their 'babies'.

You can imagine how wonderful it will be, it's harder to imagine how hard so everyone is trying to 'help out'.

Good analogy! I don't want to discourage anyone's dreams. I just want to apprise everyone what's in store. Cream rises to the top. don't look at it as someone stepping in front of your dreams, look at it as telling you the facts - and if you are going to do it this is what you need to get ready. It ain't homebrewing!
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: denny on April 21, 2012, 12:00:29 AM
Anchor Steam: purchased by Fritz at age 28.

Fortunately he had a family fortune to help him along.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 21, 2012, 12:29:42 AM
Anchor Steam: purchased by Fritz at age 28.

Fortunately he had a family fortune to help him along.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

And that's wrong? Did he rack up a big debt with his family? Do you really know? I don't.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 21, 2012, 02:33:25 AM
Nothing wrong with that at all.  Helps to smooth out the bumps.

Obviously, he did well with it.  Family money does not prevent failure, although it may provide a soft landing and certainly helps at the start.

I hardly thing Anchor is a failure so he must have some business skills.
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 21, 2012, 02:45:11 AM
Anchor steam??? Common giys. We are talking about building a brewery ground up not starting with an established brand and family fortune. Doesn't work here. Rich guys are racing yachts not home brewing.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 21, 2012, 02:46:56 AM
I think there is a parallel here with the advice one receives when the first child is on the way. It's all about how hard it is, how little sleep you will get, how much it will cost, etc. It's not that people are trying to discourage you as much as they don't want you to look back and say 'why didn't anyone tell me it would be so hard?'

It's all true, I don't sleep, have no money and have never worked so hard (a child for me, not a brewery but same same) but I wouldn't trade it. I think Major and the rest of the dream catchers on here would feel the same way about their 'babies'.

You can imagine how wonderful it will be, it's harder to imagine how hard so everyone is trying to 'help out'.

Good analogy! I don't want to discourage anyone's dreams. I just want to apprise everyone what's in store. Cream rises to the top. don't look at it as someone stepping in front of your dreams, look at it as telling you the facts - and if you are going to do it this is what you need to get ready. It ain't homebrewing!

I agree that's a good analogy, with the exception that I've never seen anyone with kids being discouraging of others having kids.  It's more like "when are you going to have one/another one."

It seems that people feel the responses here are discouraging about becoming pro rather than receiving constructive advice.

No one told me not to have three kids, they waited until afterwards to tell me how hard it is.  But there are a ton of rewards that come with that hard work.

Perhaps it's just putting a different spin on the advice you're giving?  I'm sure there are rewards to all the hard work you put in at your brewery.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 21, 2012, 02:50:52 AM
Anchor steam??? Common giys. We are talking about building a brewery ground up not starting with an established brand and family fortune. Doesn't work here. Rich guys are racing yachts not home brewing.

I thought with that comment Morticai was pointing out that age should be immaterial.

There's plenty of examples of someone buying an established brand and running it into the ground. 

But, you are correct that it's bad example with respect to the original post.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 21, 2012, 03:04:15 AM
Anchor steam??? Common giys. We are talking about building a brewery ground up not starting with an established brand and family fortune. Doesn't work here. Rich guys are racing yachts not home brewing.

It was simply example of how age has nothing to do with being successful. It does work here.

Can you say, without a doubt, that all rich guys are racing yachts and that none of them homebrew?
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 21, 2012, 03:22:50 AM
Ok - its like you live in a rented trailer and work part time at the convenience store and want to have kids. That's the way I see many people who want to open breweries. You don't have a plan to get the 250 grand you need and (maybe) don't make very good beer to boot.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case on every instance. But it is the warning in case that's what you have in your cards. You better have your s*** together - because those of us who have done it know what it takes to get it done. Your ten gallon home brew set up will not cut it. Your $20 grand from your 401k won't cut it either. Every damn time you turn around you need to sink 5 grand, or maybe more. That's the way it is. Thats what happens every month - you need a pallet of grain, you need kegs, you need yeast or your cold room expanded or you glycol system breaks down because you were struck by lightening, or, or, or, or......

It's fricking EXPENSIVE as hell. And there is no end and no cheap way to do it. And it always wants more money, because you can't make the money you need without the equipment and as soon as you have the equipment you need more kegs and more grain and more money ... On and on and on.

Dont get me wrong, I love it. All I am saying is no matter how hard you think it is .... It's way harder. Do it! Just do it knowing what you are getting I to. Do it knowing the facts of what you can use to make it work.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 21, 2012, 03:30:35 AM
Ok - its like you live in a rented trailer and work part time at the convenience store and want to have kids. That's the way I see many people who want to open breweries. You don't have a plan to get the 250 grand you need and (maybe) don't make very good beer to boot.

I'm not saying that this is necessarily the case on every instance. But it is the warning in case that's what you have in your cards. You better have your s*** together - because those of us who have done it know what it takes to get it done. Your ten gallon home brew set up will not cut it. Your $20 grand from your 401k won't cut it either. Every damn time you turn around you need to sink 5 grand, or maybe more. That's the way it is. Thats what happens every month - you need a pallet of grain, you need kegs, you need yeast or your cold room expanded or you glycol system breaks down because you were struck by lightening, or, or, or, or......

It's fricking EXPENSIVE as hell. And there is no end and no cheap way to do it. And it always wants more money, because you can't make the money you need without the equipment and as soon as you have the equipment you need more kegs and more grain and more money ... On and on and on.

Dont get me wrong, I love it. All I am saying is no matter how hard you think it is .... It's way harder. Do it! Just do it knowing what you are getting I to. Do it knowing the facts of what you can use to make it work.

You've just described any small business and I've never lived in a rented trailer.

I ran some numbers on a small brewery and while I have the resources to start one, it's just not worth the trouble for the ROI.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 21, 2012, 03:48:01 AM
Ok - its like you live in a rented trailer and work part time at the convenience store and want to have kids. That's the way I see many people who want to open breweries. You don't have a plan to get the 250 grand you need and (maybe) don't make very good beer to boot.

Wow.
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 21, 2012, 03:53:11 AM
Sorry If that shocked you, joe jr. Life is shocking. So is opening a brewery.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 21, 2012, 03:59:53 AM
Sorry If that shocked you, joe jr. Life is shocking. So is opening a brewery.

How many employees do you have working for you?
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: denny on April 21, 2012, 04:03:10 AM
Anchor Steam: purchased by Fritz at age 28.

Fortunately he had a family fortune to help him along.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

And that's wrong? Did he rack up a big debt with his family? Do you really know? I don't.

Did I say it was wrong?  It just made it easier for him and less risky than it might be for others.  And actually I do know quite a bit about it since I grew up a couple blocks away from him.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 21, 2012, 04:05:46 AM
Anchor Steam: purchased by Fritz at age 28.

Fortunately he had a family fortune to help him along.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

And that's wrong? Did he rack up a big debt with his family? Do you really know? I don't.

Did I say it was wrong?  It just made it easier for him and less risky than it might be for others.  And actually I do know quite a bit about it since I grew up a couple blocks away from him.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

If I go to start a business, I'll take the easiest route long before I take the hard one. The fact is, he did it at a young age. Maybe you should have hung out with him. :D
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 21, 2012, 04:08:57 AM
Sorry If that shocked you, joe jr. Life is shocking. So is opening a brewery.

How many employees do you have working for you?

I have three partners. I could not do all this on my own, though I do the majority - and all the brewing. Likewise I could not afford to fund an operation like this on my own. I am hoping to be able to hire some help on this year.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 21, 2012, 04:14:13 AM
Sorry If that shocked you, joe jr. Life is shocking. So is opening a brewery.

How many employees do you have working for you?

I have three partners. I could not do all this on my own, though I do the majority - and all the brewing. Likewise I could not afford to fund an operation like this on my own. I am hoping to be able to hire some help on this year.

Dude, you think you have it bad now, just wait until (if it happens) that you have 20 -30 employees working for you. The problems you have now will seem miniscule compared to that.
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 21, 2012, 04:19:11 AM
I don't doubt you are right. I just hope I make it that far. It's a tough rd. but like you said, so is any small business.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: wiley on April 21, 2012, 04:26:12 PM
Well that sparked some debate! I'm going to apologize now for being a little off topic, but I feel compelled to write a short thesis...

I agree with just about all sides presented, and I appreciate the candid advice (as I'm sure most everyone in here does). But, in the sprit of pragmatism, I feel that it's best to add some color to the previous posts:

Yep, kids are hard -- that's why my wife and I have dedicated ourselves to bulldogs. I doubt that we'll ever know the happiness that goes along with having kids... but that's a CHOICE. Sure there's probably a parallel here (can't tell you for certain because of the aforementioned reasons); but I've never heard as much cynicism about being a good parent as I have about blowing tons of money and making crap beer no one will buy. I would hope that we (as humans) would be more honest with the first, rather than the latter. And if a failed brewery owner looks back with the question 'why didn't anyone tell me it would be so hard?', that's the exact reason why they failed -- lack of 'owning' it and expecting someone else to 'tell me'.

Yep, brewing is hard, blue collar work -- but that's where I come from... I grew up on a farm and have been working since before I was a teenager. Anyone that says farming isn't as hard as brewing has never farmed. I concur that it's highly probable that a number of folks looking to start a brewery haven't worked a string of hard days in a row. But to assume that someone doesn't know what hard work is chaps me.

Yep, small business is hard -- that's why I got two degrees is business (self-financed education, by the way) and haven't stopped there; I began working as a financial consultant to get the best experience and exposure to business as I can. I've clocked plenty of 100+ hour weeks in the last five years consulting for breweries, can manufacturers, and BIG startups (read: hundreds of millions).

As far as Anchor is concerned:
Did I say it was wrong?  It just made it easier for him and less risky than it might be for others.  And actually I do know quite a bit about it since I grew up a couple blocks away from him.

Denny?! Come on, buddy;D... cooooommmmmmeeeee oonnnnnn........

1) Yes, Fritz had some financial resources -- that's why I specifically stated 'purchased'. I wouldn't say that having financial resources made it easier for him -- it made turning Anchor around POSSIBLE. I don't think that anyone will argue that you'll need a hell of a lot more than financial resources and a good product (see #2 below) to run a successful brewery. Work ethic, smarts, determination, creativity and luck are VITAL components to making it work -- amiright, Keith? 

Anchor steam??? Common giys. We are talking about building a brewery ground up not starting with an established brand and family fortune. Doesn't work here. Rich guys are racing yachts not home brewing.

Keith?! Come on, buddy;D... cooooommmmmmeeeee oonnnnnn........

2) An established brand? You're kidding, right?
Per Wikipedia:
"By 1965, however, it [Anchor Brewing Company] was doing so poorly that it nearly closed again [yep, twice!]. Anchor's situation continued to deteriorate largely because the current owners lacked the expertise and attention to cleanliness that are required to produce consistent batches of beer for commercial consumption. The brewery gained a deserved reputation for producing sour, bad beer. In 1965... [Fritz] bought the brewery, saving it from closure. Maytag purchased 51 percent of the brewery for several thousand dollars, and later purchased the brewery outright."

I would argue that the road of taking a crap reputation with existing copper/stainless (AND KEEPING THE SAME NAME!!) is infinitely more difficult than building a solid reputation from scratch. The 'family fortune' is minuscule in comparison to what Fritz was able to accomplish. Oh, and did I mention that he started doing it at 28? ;-D

I don't want to cause TOO much of a stir (OK, maybe a little bit ;-D), but I do want to point out that (in general) the posts I've read are put forth from a 'one size fits all' perspective. A number of them are condescending and patronizing -- I've only ever gotten that once from the 30+ brewery owners I've spoken with. And actually, here's a great story that goes really well along with the sentiment of 'putting a different spin on it':

Matt Cutter from Upslope Brewing Company sold me my first 7 BBL fermenters over two years ago. I showed up with a Penske rental truck, a cashier's check in hand, and a half full corny of blueberry wheat that I had thrown in the back of the truck (and had bounced all along the road to Boulder). After loading the fermenters, I asked Matt if he would like to try the beer (at something like 9:00 AM). He smiled and said "Sure", went inside to grab a few glasses and came back. Obviously, the beer poured like s*** after bouncing along in the back of the rental truck, but Matt smiled and sipped it nonetheless. Matt, being inquisitive, asked how I planned to unload the fermenters and if I had a CIP system set up to clean them -- I believe my response was "CIP? I'm open to suggestions..." At that point, I'm sure Matt couldn't believe the new home his (now my) fermenters would be going to. Again he smiled, and began to show me his CIP system....

The industry (and this forum) needs more of Matt and less of what we've been hearing...

PS -- we got the fermenters unloaded and used them that weekend....

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ev39lxoYR8A/T5LdNKMAqgI/AAAAAAAAAT8/SMhmYAp-2gc/s800/SNC11690.JPG)

... and made crap beer -- but the beer has been constantly improving ever since ;-D Hell, maybe one day we'll actually be able to sell it. Anyone who wants to learn how to unload 7 BBL fermenters without a forklift or pallet jack, feel free to PM me.

Cheers!
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 21, 2012, 05:11:26 PM
Avery Brewing Company: started by Adam Avery at age 27.
Oskar Blues: started by Dale Katechis at age 28.
New Belgium: started by Jeff Lebesch at age 27.
Sierra Nevada: started by Ken Grossman at age 25.
Anchor Steam: purchased by Fritz at age 28.

With the comments on this, remember that some depends on when you get in on the growth of an industry. The Bill Gates and such in the software industry were in at a ceratain time. Same can be said of the captains of the steel and oil industries when those were in the growth phase - see Malcom Gladwells books.

Fritz did have the family stock to sell, and the number of $5000 is stuck in my mind for the original inverstment in Anchor, which was essentialy a failed brewery.  That is more than $50,000 in todays money though.  Not like that was an overnight success either.

Ken Grosman has said they started with loans from family, and it was really hard to go back and ask for more money after they made one good batch, then dumped the next 10-12 due to quallity issues.

Juff Lebesch is no longer at New Belgium.  There are many that have started breweries and then lost control of them.  Happened to a guy here in MI recently.

Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: narvin on April 21, 2012, 05:33:27 PM
On the other hand, a little dose of reality is good.  ;)  The people who are serious will still open breweries.  Remember the 90s when "microbrewing" was a fad that everyone wanted to get into?  The result was lots of bad beer, a bubble, and a crash that set back the whole industry for a while.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 21, 2012, 07:39:18 PM
+1 to Narvin.

As far as age goes, I don't find it as much of an issue as some might. I'm not sure how good a brewer I would have been at 24 but that doesn't hold true for everyone. I was making pretty good beer after 2 years of brewing. I was making (IMO) excellent beer at about 8-10 years in. In my case any success I have is all situational. I took a buy out from my employer of 15 years. My wife works a good job so that I can do this. I have three partners that helped me fund it, along with a bank loan. This would not happen for me if any one of those puzzles had not fallen into play.

As far as Fritz goes, good post Wiley. But I think you underestimate the power of marketing. Clever marketing can turn around a bad brewery assuming the beer improves. I'm not saying it's easy. BUt it's easier than starting up a brewery from scratch. In Fritz's case he not only had a brand, but he had a story - the Cali common. That's a gold gem right there, worth $250K at least.

Also, a lot of problems go away when you throw money at it. If I had $100K sitting around I could olve a lot of my problems. OTOH that would just open up more problems and then I'd need $200K to trow at them.  ;)
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: a10t2 on April 21, 2012, 08:06:22 PM
Clever marketing can turn around a bad brewery assuming the beer improves.

It also can keep (and has kept) a bad brewery in business. ::)
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 21, 2012, 08:13:24 PM
True dat.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: phunhog on April 22, 2012, 01:17:44 AM
On the other hand, a little dose of reality is good.  ;)  The people who are serious will still open breweries.  Remember the 90s when "microbrewing" was a fad that everyone wanted to get into?  The result was lots of bad beer, a bubble, and a crash that set back the whole industry for a while.

Exactly! I am just wondering if we won't see another brewery bubble crash in the next few years. I don't even think it a matter of making bad beer. It's a matter of too many breweries competing for too few customers. It seems like every week I hear of another half dozen planned breweries, most under 7bbl. As has been stated before running a brewery is a lot of work.  How many people will stick with it if the financial incentive is not there? As someone else said....at the end of the day it is a job/business and if you aren't making money how long are you going to be around?
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: tygo on April 22, 2012, 02:21:50 AM
Maybe it'll be a crash, maybe it'll be a consolidation, maybe a little of both.  I agree though with everyone and their brother opening up a brewery something's gotta give.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 22, 2012, 02:41:09 AM
I just hope, before it crashes, that competition will drive down the prices. It's getting ridiculous. A pint of beer selling for $6, $7, $8 and even more in some places. Pitchers upwards of $20. Happy hour knocks off a buck. BFD.
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 22, 2012, 12:46:26 PM
Prices are dependent on cost of ingredients and energy and materials, especially kegs. It seems like no matter how many you own you always need more, and any time you need kegs you can expect to drop at least 5k.

The more likely scenario is that the mid to large size craft brewers will lower their prices enough to make if difficult for small regional breweries to compete.

If you want to support you small, local brewery (who, incidentally is Helping to support the local economy by doing business locally) then don't scoff at paying more for a pint. If you want there to be a local brewery you are going to have to help support it. Remember, the guy making your beer is probably making less than you are.


---
I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?axzrvi
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 22, 2012, 01:23:06 PM
When I take my wife out to eat, the only cause I'm supporting is our own. We want good beer, good food and good service at reasonable prices. Restaurants that offer that are who we support. The bus boy probably makes less than me or the guy that works for the guy making the beer. I can't save the world.
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 22, 2012, 01:27:16 PM
Not asking to save the world, bud. You should probably just drink water and quit griping. :)
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 22, 2012, 01:58:28 PM
Not asking to save the world, bud. You should probably just drink water and quit griping. :)

I don't believe I am the one gripping here. Just stating my opinion.

Even though we disagree with each other sometimes, at least I am courteous to you and I don't take it to a personal level as you do with me and many others.
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 22, 2012, 02:23:58 PM
Uhm, ok, I guess. I thought you were complaining about the price of pints. Not sure how I am misreading that. And I am confused on how I took it "personal" with you or any one else.

But, to stay on topic, as I mentioned above, the cost of ingredients is the driving factor in the cost of your pint. You brought up bus boys, which has nothing to do with anything. Craft beer is expensive, I wish the ingredients were less expensive because then the beer would much less expensive to make. As homebrewers surely everyone here has seen the cost of ingredients skyrocket over the last several years. Don't be shocked to see the cost of your pints go up too.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 22, 2012, 02:31:48 PM
Uhm, ok, I guess. I thought you were complaining about the price of pints. Not sure how I am misreading that.

But, to stay on topic, as I mentioned above, the cost of ingredients is the driving factor in the cost of your pint. You brought up bus boys, which has nothing to do with anything. Craft beer is expensive, I wish the ingredients we're less expensive because then the beer would much less expensive to make. As homebrewers surely everyone here has seen the cost of ingredients skyrocket over the last several years. Don't be shocked to see the cost of your pints go up too.

Yes, I was commenting or complaining about prices, which is a valid, but I don't think that deserved the "drink water and quit gripping" comment. I could say the same to you. Quit whining about all of the negative things related to your brewery and all of the hard work and long hours. Get another job. If I did, that would be rude of me and  I apologize, in advance, for stating that as an example.

Yes, some beers require more ingredients or more expensive ones, but I've been to places that charge $5 for most of their craft beers, but $7 for an IPA. Come on, it doesn't cost that much more for a few hops and a little more grain.
Title: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on April 22, 2012, 02:38:52 PM
I was only trying to point out that water is cheaper.;) seriously, I am surprised that you offended by my comment. Wasn't my intention. And I'm not complaining about my business. I'm trying to give people who want to go pro an insight. I believe I have stated several times that "I love it".

Also, I think you missed the point where I said breweries and brewers were often struggling to survive. They charge what they charge to simply stay in business. They can't give it all away (though they certainly give lots of it away). But enough, I will not comment in this thread anymore.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bo on April 22, 2012, 02:48:35 PM
But enough, I will not comment in this thread anymore.

Me either.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: markaberrant on April 22, 2012, 02:59:42 PM
I agree though with everyone and their brother opening up a brewery something's gotta give.

Hence why some of us that have been around for awhile are somewhat skeptical, and trying to offer some cautionary advice.  You need to know what you are getting into, not just the work and cost involved in setting up a brewery, but the market you are getting into.  I'm not saying craft beer has "peaked," but the unprecedented growth in new breweries is likely not sustainable/viable, even in the short term.  Instead of one shaky new brewery in a single market that can stumble along for years until finally getting their act together (ie; Anchor, Sierra Nevada, DFH, etc ad nauseum), you might have 6-12 shaky breweries opening in a single year, and there are also some established stable breweries in the area/region that you are in competition with.

I don't want to see it happen, I hope it doesn't happen, and there will indeed be many new successful breweries, but anyone with a basic understanding of economics can look at the craft beer sector and see that many of these new operations likely won't survive the next 5 years.  I am not saying YOUR brewery or YOUR dream of a brewery can't make it, and I give full credit to anyone with guts to give it a try, but as the saying goes, "only the strong survive."
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: euge on April 22, 2012, 07:14:12 PM
My beer isn;t nearly good enough to sell IMO. :D

I've got other ideas on how to open a business with what I have learned from homebrewing. And a brewery isn;t one of them. 8)

Anyway, good luck to all that choose to go that route. I root for you- just let us know how it turns out.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: boulderbrewer on April 23, 2012, 03:34:04 AM
I hear you wiley, I'll let you know how to get 7BBL Kettle and mash tun off a car trailer if you share your fermentor unloading secrets!

I want to say that you can do this, on your budget. You will need around 50 to 100k for what you need not counting your property. If you plan to do it on the cheap hit craigs list twice daily. I missed out on a $2800 chiller that sold for $200 by 2 hours. Doing it on a budget can be done that is how we are doing it. So you got to hit every place that you can find cheap equipment that you can make work. I can still mortgage the house to pay for the brewery but as Omar said don't mortgage you house to build your brewery, you may need to mortgage it to buy a canner later on! 
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: phunhog on April 23, 2012, 04:52:40 AM
I just hope, before it crashes, that competition will drive down the prices. It's getting ridiculous. A pint of beer selling for $6, $7, $8 and even more in some places. Pitchers upwards of $20. Happy hour knocks off a buck. BFD.
You know I really hate to admit it but the prices of craft beer are getting to be a little out of control. I say this fully admitting that I am a thrifty... ok cheap.. homebrewer. It is pretty easy to go out and spend 20-30 bucks on 3-4 beers at a brewery.  I know that I can make between 5-10 gallons of homebrew for the same amount of money. Thank goodness my local brewery also has a homebrew shop. I want to support them but...I am not made of money ;D
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: boulderbrewer on April 23, 2012, 05:04:13 AM
That is why our tap house will be serving pints less than 4, we feel at 4 you cross the line. If costs dictate maybe we will resize the glassware.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: markaberrant on April 23, 2012, 06:03:39 PM
That is why our tap house will be serving pints less than 4, we feel at 4 you cross the line. If costs dictate maybe we will resize the glassware.

20oz imperial pints of craft beer start at about $8 in Canada.  Paying $5 or less for a 16oz pint in the US is a great deal for us when we visit!
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 23, 2012, 06:58:16 PM
There's a place by my house that sells "pints" that are really 12oz.

And the prices are high.  But they have some great beer and I can walk there so I like to go on occasion.

If the prices were better, I'd go more regularly.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on April 23, 2012, 07:16:32 PM
If your consumers think its worth it, the unit cost is irrelevant (within reason). Sam Calagione's "Brewing Up A Business" focuses a lot on this idea. Give it a read!

I'd be more concerned with ordering a "pint" as advertised and being served less. Might not be a big deal to some - but its best not to deceive your consumers.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 23, 2012, 08:46:26 PM
I'd be more concerned with ordering a "pint" as advertised and being served less. Might not be a big deal to some - but its best not to deceive your consumers.

I called them out on the glass sizes once.  I had a stout in a British pint glass (with the bulb out near the top).  I told the woman behind the bar it was a 12 oz glass.

She filled one with water and poured it into one of the other standard "pint" glasses to prove it was a pint.  I told her all she did was prove that all of their glasses were 12 ounces.

She did not like me much.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: morticaixavier on April 23, 2012, 10:33:11 PM
I'd be more concerned with ordering a "pint" as advertised and being served less. Might not be a big deal to some - but its best not to deceive your consumers.

I called them out on the glass sizes once.  I had a stout in a British pint glass (with the bulb out near the top).  I told the woman behind the bar it was a 12 oz glass.

She filled one with water and poured it into one of the other standard "pint" glasses to prove it was a pint.  I told her all she did was prove that all of their glasses were 12 ounces.

She did not like me much.

I gotta ask, how did you know it was only 12 oz? did you bring a measuring cup with you? she might have been unhappy becuase you were accusing them of something they weren't doing.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 24, 2012, 12:07:54 AM
I've held enough pints in my life to know what is a pint and what isn't.

And if you pour a twelve ounce bottle into a pint it should have room left over and not be full.

These glasses were 12 oz.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: euge on April 24, 2012, 06:30:41 PM
I have a bunch of the US 20oz nonic pint glasses. Pour a 12oz beer in one and it doesn't even reach the "bulge".

Joe- instead of trying to argue and prove you wrong the bartender should have went to her supervisor/manager and had them talk to you about it. If she was young she was probably unhappy you didn't back down from your assertion and I'm surprised you didn't get a bunch of smart-ass answers from her.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 24, 2012, 09:16:34 PM
Yeah.  It wasn't much of an argument.  And her supervisor is the owner who was not there.

They lost their liquor license, so it's moot.  Which is too bad, because I would go back regardless of the glass size.  They have (had) Old Rasputin on tap.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: boulderbrewer on April 27, 2012, 03:18:12 AM
Well Joe Sr. if you vacation north stop by out tap house and we will be glad to cheat you out of your dollars! ;) I can see how we can over pay for our beers, we are stuck paying for the over head. Did you know that if you want to pour New Glarus's top line beers like Raspberry tart or Belgian Red you have to have tap line cleaning class and that ain't cheap.

No excuses all our beers will be under $4 but our glass may vary from a 8 oz or 16 oz.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 27, 2012, 02:37:57 PM
I do vacation north.  Where are you at?

I'll be up north of Eau Claire sometime in August for a family pig roast.

To be honest, the kids don't get too excited about a day trip to a brewery.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: morticaixavier on April 27, 2012, 04:34:20 PM
I do vacation north.  Where are you at?

I'll be up north of Eau Claire sometime in August for a family pig roast.

To be honest, the kids don't get too excited about a day trip to a brewery.

you should check out Thirsty Monks brewery, I assume you are refering to eau claire WI.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 27, 2012, 04:38:51 PM
Yes.  I always plan to, but we stay about two hours north of Eau Claire.  It would be a long day trip with three kids, especially after the looooooong drive getting there.

I do pick up some growlers of his beer every time we pass through.  His Marzen was outstanding.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on April 27, 2012, 07:39:12 PM
Yes.  I always plan to, but we stay about two hours north of Eau Claire.  It would be a long day trip with three kids, especially after the looooooong drive getting there.

I do pick up some growlers of his beer every time we pass through.  His Marzen was outstanding.
Joe Sr. Thank you.
Just letting you know that we have open a tap room. It is not too far from 53 north.
Once more time thank you for buying my beer.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 27, 2012, 07:48:09 PM
You're welcome.  We stopped at the Foster Cheese House specifically to get some of your beer (and cheese curds, and ice cream for the kids).

My wife really likes your Bohemian Dark Lager.  I took the Marzen to a dinner party and everyone enjoyed it.

I'll try to hit the tap room on the next trip, but on the way up I've been in the car over 6 or 7 hours by the time we get there and on the way back I've got 6 or 7 hours to go...  The growlers are perfect for bringing some back, though.  I suppose I should bring back my empties for the deposit!
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: denny on April 27, 2012, 08:24:02 PM
Yes.  I always plan to, but we stay about two hours north of Eau Claire.  It would be a long day trip with three kids, especially after the looooooong drive getting there.

I do pick up some growlers of his beer every time we pass through.  His Marzen was outstanding.
Joe Sr. Thank you.
Just letting you know that we have open a tap room. It is not too far from 53 north.
Once more time thank you for buying my beer.

Having tried your beer, I'll say that anyone able to get it should consider themselves very lucky.  I wish I was able to get it here!
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on April 28, 2012, 03:47:24 AM
Denny,
Thank you very kind words.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: newrocset on May 07, 2012, 04:53:24 AM
Afacini...hope you didn't totally abandon this thread....

I suggest you join your local homebrew club - you can learn a lot by interacting with other homebrewers face-to-face, esp. those who win a lot of competitions...you're brewing knowledge will advance considerably.

Also, all grain, ain't that hard, just a longer brew day, and a bit cheaper than extract.  Focus on yeast management and proper fermentation practices if you want to be a good brewer - that's what makes a good beer....believe me, there are plenty of all-grain brewers who suck because they don't know jack about fermentation.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: wiley on October 16, 2013, 06:42:12 PM
Not to revive an old thread, but just thought I'd provide an update. I've been away from the AHA forum for the better part of 9 months (ish?) so I'm sure there's a proverbial crap ton that I've missed in the discussion. I penned our lease in January, constructed the brewhouse and tap room for about 6 months (we're still not finished with a number of improvements on the "wish list") and opened our doors to the public July 20th, 2013. It's been the most physical, mental, emotional, stress-filled challenge of my life --- and it's been awesome!

The bad - it's pretty much as difficult as everyone warns you... even more so when you're self-financed and you get the opportunity to watch the pot of money drain on stupid stuff -- like replacing virtually every vital component of your 20 year old walk-in cooler compressor over the course of 3 weeks.

But, persevering has its rewards: 1 "day off" since January 1st and averaging four hours of sleep a night has a funny way of paying off (besides losing almost 20 pounds -- probably from the stress ;-) ):

(http://www.greatamericanbeerfestival.com/wp-content/uploads/gabf2013_pr.jpg)

Cheers to the AHA forum, the great advice from the boys at KROC, the amazing community that is craft brewing, and the number of folks who've seen a lot around here and have taken the time to impart the wisdom.

Cheers -
Kyle
Wiley Roots Brewing.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Pawtucket Patriot on October 16, 2013, 06:50:27 PM
Congrats, Kyle!  And thanks for the update!  You've come a long way in a relatively short amount of time.  Pint raised!

Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: hopfenundmalz on October 16, 2013, 07:02:29 PM
Wow! Some nice hardware, and a picture with Charley P.
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: tschmidlin on October 17, 2013, 06:52:38 AM
Awesome, congratulations!
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: majorvices on October 17, 2013, 11:47:02 AM
Congrats man! Very awesome!
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on October 17, 2013, 01:31:38 PM
Also congratulation.
And now sell some beer. :).
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: wiley on October 17, 2013, 02:48:46 PM
Thanks for the 'grats! It's been a whirlwind of a year, but there's no better way to spend it than with the great craft beer brewers and enthusiasts! Keep on keepin' on!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akec_5zCgso (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akec_5zCgso)
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: bluesman on October 17, 2013, 04:40:47 PM
Thanks for the udate. Sounds like you've climbed a mountain. I'm very happy for you.

Congrats! :)
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: boulderbrewer on October 18, 2013, 02:17:19 PM
Way to go, what a fun way to diet!
Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: lakeratbrewing on January 25, 2017, 04:50:33 AM
If State license is required and is the most expensive wait on federal brewers notice. We had the state out numerous times but can't proceed until federal notice is issued. We are at 210 days with feds and no end in sight. Glad we started small. I can't imagine having a million dollar loan payment and waiting on permitting from feds.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: "The Grand Timeline"
Post by: troybinso on January 25, 2017, 05:15:28 AM
My state was great. The Feds - not so much. It took about 9 months for the license to get approved, and there was basically no contact or communication the entire time. I just got an email one day that said "approved". Just try to be patient and then once that approval comes in, start brewing like crazy.