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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: roguejim on March 16, 2012, 12:24:17 AM

Title: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: roguejim on March 16, 2012, 12:24:17 AM
For the BJCP judges here, have you ever judged an AIPA that had too much, or too strong of a hop aroma?  Is it even possible for an AIPA to have too much hop aroma, as far as comps are concerned?
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: a10t2 on March 16, 2012, 12:44:48 AM
Quote
A prominent to intense hop aroma with a citrusy, floral, perfume-like, resinous, piney, and/or fruity character derived from American hops.

I personally wouldn't ding an AIPA for having too much hop aroma, because "intense" is about the strongest descriptor in the guidelines. I have taken a couple points off of an IPA that was too bitter and unbalanced to fit the style guidelines, and should have been entered in 14C.
Title: Re: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: krazykrausen on March 16, 2012, 12:53:02 AM
For the BJCP judges here, have you ever judged an AIPA that had too much, or too strong of a hop aroma?  Is it even possible for an AIPA to have too much hop aroma, as far as comps are concerned?

I could see an argument if the aroma didn't feature American hops or hops that can be considered/confused for American (like some New Zealand types)

Are you asking cause you were dinged for it, just curious?

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Title: Re: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: roguejim on March 16, 2012, 01:16:25 AM
For the BJCP judges here, have you ever judged an AIPA that had too much, or too strong of a hop aroma?  Is it even possible for an AIPA to have too much hop aroma, as far as comps are concerned?

I could see an argument if the aroma didn't feature American hops or hops that can be considered/confused for American (like some New Zealand types)

Are you asking cause you were dinged for it, just curious?

Sent from my EVO using tapatalk

I asked the question initially after seeing the "Citrus Bomb IPA" recipe with 10-oz of aroma hops.  Granted, it is a 10-gal batch, but there doesn't seem to be much of a limit to aroma/dry hopping.
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: tomsawyer on March 16, 2012, 02:57:29 PM
Aroma-wise I wouldn't ding it, but it shouldn't be too terribly bitter IMHO.

I'm thinking of entering a single hop Pacific Jade APA in a comp, not sure if it will do well but I thought people might want to taste it.
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: richardt on March 16, 2012, 03:04:03 PM
Keep in mind that hop aroma fades over time, too.
No, I wouldn't ding an APA or AIPA for "too much hop aroma"--In my view, there's no such thing.
However, if you're talking about "balance" between hop bitterness, flavor, and malt flavor--that is a whole different thing.  It is possible to disturb the balance of malt and hops in the beer by steeping too long during chilling/whirlpooling and or excessive dry hopping (grassy or unpleasant vegetal taste).
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: a10t2 on March 16, 2012, 03:09:01 PM
excessive dry hopping (grassy or unpleasant vegetal taste).

Which isn't necessarily a flaw, per the guidelines.
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: richardt on March 16, 2012, 03:14:27 PM
agreed.  it just adds another dimension to the beer. although I find some hop varieties dry-hop better than others.  I didn't care for the flavor contributions when dryhopping with Bravo or Summit hops, for example, but I do love Cascade, Amarillo, and Simcoe.
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: mabrungard on March 16, 2012, 05:02:57 PM
In my opinion, an AIPA can have too much hop flavor and aroma and it manifests itself as more of grassy or vegetal notes in excess of the normal hoppy notes.  If the brewer can stuff more hoppy goodness into the flavor and aroma without that character, it would be hard to ding an AIPA on that account.  I have noted some hops that I don't particularly appreciate in high quantity, so that could enter into the discussion. 

I have to disagree with Sean on the comment he made regarding an over bittered IPA needing to move to the 14C IIPA category.  In my experience, IIPA are almost always more balanced than an IPA due to the saturation limit for iso-alpha acids in wort.  No matter what bittering the brewer tries to force into the wort, the limit of about 80 ppm iso-alpha means that it is not going to stand up to the higher gravity of the typical IIPA.  The net result is that these beers tend to be more balanced than the typical IPA.  Heck even my wife will drink an IIPA, but she recognizes the more severe bittering of an IPA and won't drink one of those.   
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: a10t2 on March 16, 2012, 06:08:36 PM
In my experience, IIPA are almost always more balanced than an IPA due to the saturation limit for iso-alpha acids in wort.

I actually agree, but I view this as a symptom of brewers "pushing the envelope" in the IPA category, rather than something intrinsic to the style. I was talking about a strict reading of the style guidelines, in which IPA (14B) is said to be a balanced bitter/malty beer:

Quote
Medium-high to very high hop bitterness, although the malt backbone will support the strong hop character and provide the best balance. Malt flavor should be low to medium, and is generally clean and malty sweet although some caramel or toasty flavors are acceptable at low levels.
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: gmac on March 16, 2012, 07:02:05 PM
How much aroma can the beer actually take on?  If there's a bittermess limit, is there an aroma limit?  I did an APA with 3 oz of dry hops and I didn't think it smelled any stronger or better than what I did with 1 oz. Personally I think I wasted 2 oz of hops.
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: richardt on March 16, 2012, 08:46:38 PM
Sometimes I think the beers dryhopped with just 1 oz are "underwhelming" and the aromas are "barely there" or not any more noticeable than if I had aroma steeped at knockout.

2-3 oz of dry hops per 5 gallon keg seems to give a noticeable result without running the risk of excessive dry-hop grassiness/vegetal flavors.  Use low AA dual-use or aroma hop varieties.  My experience with high AA hops for dry hopping (e.g., Bravo and Summit, typically only used for bittering) hasn't been great.
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: morticaixavier on March 16, 2012, 10:07:46 PM
I noticed something interesting with my last IPA. I keg hopped with 1 oz (it's a single hop rye ipa with ivanhoe) and quick carbed by shaking and the aroma on that first day was outstanding. It has since faded a bit. still good but not in your face to the same extent. So I am thinking that having the hops in there while I shook the beejeezus out of the beer essentially randalized it for a couple hours.
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: richardt on March 17, 2012, 01:40:31 AM
I have read somewhere (and personal experience seems to support this) that dry hopped kegs seem to be great for the first 1-2 gallons or so, and then the hop aroma seems to fade.  I have also read that some homebrewers compensate for this by spliting the dry hop addition in half and pitching half initially and reserving the other half until one has gone through 2 or more gallons in the keg. 

Just an idea if you want consistency of hop aroma throughout the keg.
Title: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: denny on March 17, 2012, 01:45:35 AM
I have read somewhere (and personal experience seems to support this) that dry hopped kegs seem to be great for the first 1-2 gallons or so, and then the hop aroma seems to fade.  I have also read that some homebrewers compensate for this by spliting the dry hop addition in half and pitching half initially and reserving the other half until one has gone through 2 or more gallons in the keg. 

Just an idea if you want consistency of hop aroma throughout the keg.

I can't recall ever noticing that in the kegs I've dry hopped.  That's probably close to 100.


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Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: bo on March 17, 2012, 02:22:21 AM
I have read somewhere (and personal experience seems to support this) that dry hopped kegs seem to be great for the first 1-2 gallons or so, and then the hop aroma seems to fade.  I have also read that some homebrewers compensate for this by spliting the dry hop addition in half and pitching half initially and reserving the other half until one has gone through 2 or more gallons in the keg. 

Just an idea if you want consistency of hop aroma throughout the keg.


I have seen the same thing. Great for the first part of the keg, but not so much at the end. It's still worth the effort even if it is short lived.
Title: Re: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: hoser on March 17, 2012, 03:19:40 AM
For the BJCP judges here, have you ever judged an AIPA that had too much, or too strong of a hop aroma?  Is it even possible for an AIPA to have too much hop aroma, as far as comps are concerned?

I could see an argument if the aroma didn't feature American hops or hops that can be considered/confused for American (like some New Zealand types)

Are you asking cause you were dinged for it, just curious?

Sent from my EVO using tapatalk

I asked the question initially after seeing the "Citrus Bomb IPA" recipe with 10-oz of aroma hops.  Granted, it is a 10-gal batch, but there doesn't seem to be much of a limit to aroma/dry hopping.

I am still trying to find an issue with "too much aroma hops"?  I don't think there is such a thing :P  Bittering,...yes.  Aroma...no.  Plus, the Citrus Bomb IPA recipe is the brain child of Nathan Smith.  The dude knows his hops, if he says 10 oz. of aroma hops then I say "Amen"

For what it is worth, I have brewed his Citrus Bomb IPA twice with some minor adjustments for my system and I don't think there is too much aroma.  It is very pleasant and smooth.  Too be honest, I am wanting more aroma, but that may be the way I brew and my system and process vs. what Nathan Smith dose. 

I have recently done an IIPA with over 1.5 lbs of hops in the last 20 minutes and have found the results to be phenomenol!!!!!  So, 10 oz. is nothing ;D
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: ccfoo242 on March 17, 2012, 03:22:24 AM
At some point it stops tasting like a beer and starts tasting like a strong hop tea. If you mess the balance up enough that the malt is so weak then won't that effect your score?
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: richardt on March 19, 2012, 12:10:05 AM
I have read somewhere (and personal experience seems to support this) that dry hopped kegs seem to be great for the first 1-2 gallons or so, and then the hop aroma seems to fade.  I have also read that some homebrewers compensate for this by spliting the dry hop addition in half and pitching half initially and reserving the other half until one has gone through 2 or more gallons in the keg. 

Just an idea if you want consistency of hop aroma throughout the keg.

I can't recall ever noticing that in the kegs I've dry hopped.  That's probably close to 100.
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Certainly not doubting your experience, Denny, but I can't ignore what seems to be mine either.
Perhaps one would not experience loss of hop aroma from a keg rapidly emptied within a short time frame (e.g., an evening, or even a few days), but, in my house, a keg could easily last several weeks or longer--so, yes, I think the hop aroma fades by the time we get to the end of the keg.  I use pellet hops in a mesh bag.  Perhaps my experience would be different if I used leaf hops?  Probably not.  My guess is that I'm blowing out the majority of the aroma in the first 1/2 of the keg because the hop oils have time to re-equilibrate between each dispense.  Perhaps it is nothing more than the effects of time on hop aroma within the keg.  I'm open to ideas.  At the end of the day, I just want my hop aroma to last!
Title: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: denny on March 19, 2012, 01:28:39 AM
And I absolutely don't doubt your experience, either, Richard.  I think it's a subjective matter of perception combined with the fact that different hop varieties produce different effects.  BTW, most of my kegs are on tape for a couple months.  I kicked a keg of Rye IPA yesterday that was on for 11 weeks and the dry hop aroma was still great.


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Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: Alewyfe on March 19, 2012, 04:36:53 AM
  BTW, most of my kegs are on tape for a couple months. 

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Obviously it's that hops tape that makes all the difference. Helps the hops aroma "stick" around longer.
Title: Re: AIPA...Aroma...BJCP
Post by: denny on March 19, 2012, 04:08:56 PM
  BTW, most of my kegs are on tape for a couple months. 

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Obviously it's that hops tape that makes all the difference. Helps the hops aroma "stick" around longer.

On the iPad, my typing is even worse than usual!  OTOH, hop tape....hmmmmmm...... ;)