Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => Going Pro => Topic started by: micsager on March 16, 2012, 02:06:40 PM

Title: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on March 16, 2012, 02:06:40 PM
Not opening a production brewery or anything.  Years ago I got a business license for "Dungeness Brewing Co," as I live less than a mile from the Dungeness river in beautiful northwest Washington State. (and my logo is a cool crab holding a keg.  google "dungeness brewing") yesterday, I mailed off a modification to that master business license declaring I am a brewery.  Supposedly, this will get the ball rolling, and our state liquior control board will be paying me a visit.  It was only $100. 

Now we will find out exactly what hurdles must be overcome.  A local brewery has already promised me a tap in their taproom.  And the owner is guiding me through the process.  He suggested the route I'm taking.

All I really want to do is to be able to sell my beer legally for weddings, class reunions, etc.  And the tap at one taproom will be cool. 





Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: nateo on March 16, 2012, 03:06:24 PM
Awesome! Good luck. If you're not doing much volume, the excise tax won't be a big deal. A lot of states have flat fees for licenses, though, so you could be paying the same as all the other breweries in the state. But this varies by state, so it's something you'll have to look into for your state.

Also, are you sure you can self distribute? In my state you need to also own a distributor license to sell directly. The total cost of licensing in my state for a small brewery ended up being a few thousand dollars, when I added up all the licenses and fees. So you might be surprised how expensive it can be.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: a10t2 on March 16, 2012, 03:13:09 PM
Have you looked into your local health codes? That could be the biggest hurdle when it comes to brewing at home.

Good luck!
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: Jimmy K on March 16, 2012, 03:19:00 PM
Cool! And good luck. What kind of brewing space are you planning on using?
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on March 16, 2012, 03:39:49 PM
Thanks everyone.

Self-distribute?  I don't know the legal answer, but there's another brewer in my county that does, so I'm thinking so.  And that takes care of the health department question as well.  As for a facility, I have a large, three bay detached garage that will be the brewery. 

I just figure starting the process for $100 is no big deal.  If it get's to be to much, then we'll cancel.  The guy that owns the brewery with taproom got going pretty easy, and he's just brewing one barrel batches with blichmann boilermaker pots.  Essentially a home brew system. And he's in an offsite pole building. 
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: pikelakehomebrew on March 16, 2012, 04:06:32 PM
That's awesome micsager.  Congrats on starting the process!  ;D

It's a pipe dream for me to do the same, but a looooooong ways off from making that kind of gutsy move.  Have you looked into the Federal requirements yet?  I've heard that they can be a pain in the keester.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 16, 2012, 04:07:36 PM
For questions on self distribution, the answer is in the Brewer's Association web site.  For WA=yes, <60,000 barrels, so you are covered for a few years of growth. 
http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/self-distribution-laws
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: nateo on March 16, 2012, 04:10:53 PM
I've recently talked with an advisor from the TTB. He was mostly concerned with security, like locking doors, and keeping track of your product for revenue purposes. He told me that I'd still have to comply with whatever state and local codes I had, but the Federal part seemed a lot simpler than I had thought it would.

Now, I still haven't gotten approved yet, so my opinion might change later.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: bluesman on March 16, 2012, 04:25:57 PM
Nice!  :)

Is this going to be a fulltime deal for you or are you working another job at the moment?
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: morticaixavier on March 16, 2012, 05:10:54 PM
That's awesome micsager.  Congrats on starting the process!  ;D

It's a pipe dream for me to do the same, but a looooooong ways off from making that kind of gutsy move.  Have you looked into the Federal requirements yet?  I've heard that they can be a pain in the keester.

To echo Nateo, From everything I have read the feds are really not that hard to work with. State and Local is a lot more work as they are the ones actually inspecting your facility etc. I have read that the label approval process with the feds can be a little frustrating.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on March 16, 2012, 05:36:57 PM
For questions on self distribution, the answer is in the Brewer's Association web site.  For WA=yes, <60,000 barrels, so you are covered for a few years of growth. 
http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/self-distribution-laws

I can't imagine going that big.  Homebrewing is for me.  Plus, my day job pays pretty good.  And I like money.   :D ;D
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 16, 2012, 06:20:14 PM
For questions on self distribution, the answer is in the Brewer's Association web site.  For WA=yes, <60,000 barrels, so you are covered for a few years of growth. 
http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/self-distribution-laws

I can't imagine going that big.  Homebrewing is for me.  Plus, my day job pays pretty good.  And I like money.   :D ;D

As I said, you are covered.  Remember smiley...  ;) ;)
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: nateo on March 16, 2012, 07:07:27 PM
Does the BA offer help with label approval?

There's a wine industry group in CA you can join that offers a label submission service included in the membership. They doublecheck your label before they send it in, and they can expedite your label submission.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: a10t2 on March 16, 2012, 07:24:17 PM
Does the BA offer help with label approval?

I don't think so, but with the new online system the COLA process is all but painless, and TTB is good about giving prompt and useful feedback if for some reason it's held up. And at least here in CO, once you have the federal approval the state is pretty much a rubber stamp.

The only real wrinkle is that as the regulations are currently written, things like fruit, spices, honey, wood, etc. are considered "non-traditional" and require a formula declaration - though TTB recognizes that this is a little unworkable in the craft beer industry and is pretty consistent about exempting formula declarations for common ingredients.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: majorvices on March 16, 2012, 09:14:09 PM
For questions on self distribution, the answer is in the Brewer's Association web site.  For WA=yes, <60,000 barrels, so you are covered for a few years of growth. 
http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/self-distribution-laws

I can't imagine going that big.  Homebrewing is for me.  Plus, my day job pays pretty good.  And I like money.   :D ;D

Here's hoping you are going to at least invst in something larger than a 10 gallon system. You will quickly lose the joy of brewing once you sell every drop you are brewing and never have a keg for the house. even brewing 7 bbls I sometimes go stretches without having beer at the house, and that sucks.

In fact, that makes me think of another cautionary tale: beware of going commercial because you will not be brewing for yourself any longer. On a 10 gallon system that's a lot of brewing basically for free (because there is no way you will make money on it, on the contrary your time will not even come close to being compensated. At least homebrewing you spend 8 hours and get beer out of the deal. You will be talking about spending all day brewing and maybe getting $80-100 after ingredient/energy costs.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: bbump22 on March 17, 2012, 05:59:40 PM
Thanks everyone.

Self-distribute?  I don't know the legal answer, but there's another brewer in my county that does, so I'm thinking so.  And that takes care of the health department question as well.  As for a facility, I have a large, three bay detached garage that will be the brewery. 

I just figure starting the process for $100 is no big deal.  If it get's to be to much, then we'll cancel.  The guy that owns the brewery with taproom got going pretty easy, and he's just brewing one barrel batches with blichmann boilermaker pots.  Essentially a home brew system. And he's in an offsite pole building.

I worked at a Seattle brewery where they self-distributed.  I think its free and pretty easy to get that going.  As for location, check out Foggy Noggin.  I think it just has to be detached from your house, so a Detached garage might work!

Cheers
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: tschmidlin on March 19, 2012, 06:49:20 AM
Awesome Mic, congratulations!  I'm very excited for you, keep us up to date.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on May 01, 2012, 09:18:02 PM
Awesome Mic, congratulations!  I'm very excited for you, keep us up to date.
Things are moving along nicely.  This isn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be.....   It's nice to have a space in an unincorporated area.  Building codes don't mean jack. 
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: rjfarel on May 08, 2012, 06:04:14 PM
Mic, is one these your operation?

http://www.washingtonbeerblog.com/can-washington-handle-15-more-breweries/
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on May 08, 2012, 06:07:52 PM
Mic, is one these your operation?

http://www.washingtonbeerblog.com/can-washington-handle-15-more-breweries/

Sure is.  Kelija Brewing.  We'll be DBA "dungeness brewing"  They got the city wrong though.  My Fiance's last name is Raymond.  But we are in Port Angeles. 

Thanks for sharing
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on May 17, 2012, 09:51:12 PM
For questions on self distribution, the answer is in the Brewer's Association web site.  For WA=yes, <60,000 barrels, so you are covered for a few years of growth. 
http://www.brewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/self-distribution-laws

I can't imagine going that big.  Homebrewing is for me.  Plus, my day job pays pretty good.  And I like money.   :D ;D

Here's hoping you are going to at least invst in something larger than a 10 gallon system. You will quickly lose the joy of brewing once you sell every drop you are brewing and never have a keg for the house. even brewing 7 bbls I sometimes go stretches without having beer at the house, and that sucks.

In fact, that makes me think of another cautionary tale: beware of going commercial because you will not be brewing for yourself any longer. On a 10 gallon system that's a lot of brewing basically for free (because there is no way you will make money on it, on the contrary your time will not even come close to being compensated. At least homebrewing you spend 8 hours and get beer out of the deal. You will be talking about spending all day brewing and maybe getting $80-100 after ingredient/energy costs.

Couple questions:

Why can't I brew for myself?  I've still got my system at my house, in my garage.  My "commercial" brewery will be 15 miles away at my partners place.  We'll home brew on my system, and commerical on hers.  And 8 hours?  Not even close.  We can get 2, 10 gallon batches done in less than that. 

 
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: majorvices on May 17, 2012, 10:22:22 PM
You can. Having time or wanting too is two different things. The last thing I want to do Sunday on my one day off is brew another batch of beer. Maybe your situation will be totally different than mine. But as easy as it is to set up a 2.5 - 3 bbl system it would just be pointless brewing commercially on a ten gallon. Maybe that's not your gig though, just the way I read it.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: bo on May 18, 2012, 12:57:26 AM
Don't let the negatives stop you. Plans can always change as you get into it.Good luck.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: majorvices on May 18, 2012, 02:52:25 AM
Absolutely!!! Agree 110%. I just remember how silly I felt brewing on a 1 bbl system when I started so I can't help but pass on the advice. But like I said, maybe I misunderstand the situation.

Without a doubt I wish you the best of luck. And fwiw it's not negativity, just hard earned experience. But everyone's situation is different. Here's hoping you make the most of yours!
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on May 18, 2012, 04:45:23 PM
Absolutely!!! Agree 110%. I just remember how silly I felt brewing on a 1 bbl system when I started so I can't help but pass on the advice. But like I said, maybe I misunderstand the situation.

Without a doubt I wish you the best of luck. And fwiw it's not negativity, just hard earned experience. But everyone's situation is different. Here's hoping you make the most of yours!

I don't take it as negativity.  No worries there.  I appreciate all comments. 

My intention is just to be able to legally sell some beer.  Having two, (and now possibly a third) bar stock my beer on a rotating basis will be very cool.  I have no plans to even fill sankey kegs, so I will be limited to bars with a ball lock set-up.  And that's fine. Like I said somewhere, I ain't giving up the day job.

Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on May 22, 2012, 05:00:22 PM
Well, we're almost past the posting requirement from our state LCB.  And the TTB website now has our application "under review"

I guess this is where find out what other hurdles there may (or may not) be..........

Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: boulderbrewer on May 23, 2012, 03:26:55 AM
Well, we're almost past the posting requirement from our state LCB.  And the TTB website now has our application "under review"

I guess this is where find out what other hurdles there may (or may not) be..........

Congrats, We are in the same boat at the same time. Good Luck.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: majorvices on May 23, 2012, 11:40:45 AM
Well, we're almost past the posting requirement from our state LCB.  And the TTB website now has our application "under review"

I guess this is where find out what other hurdles there may (or may not) be..........

Are you being made to hang "food grade" lights over your brewing area? What about an explosion proof room to grind grain in? Are you having to install a solid waste interceptor in front of the city sewage lines? These were all hurdles we had to deal with on a local level, even on a single bbl brewery. Also, if you are using a mash paddle you may need a 3 bay sink large enough to hold the MP. Of course, we don't use one.  ;)

Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on May 23, 2012, 02:35:13 PM
Well, we're almost past the posting requirement from our state LCB.  And the TTB website now has our application "under review"

I guess this is where find out what other hurdles there may (or may not) be..........

Are you being made to hang "food grade" lights over your brewing area? What about an explosion proof room to grind grain in? Are you having to install a solid waste interceptor in front of the city sewage lines? These were all hurdles we had to deal with on a local level, even on a single bbl brewery. Also, if you are using a mash paddle you may need a 3 bay sink large enough to hold the MP. Of course, we don't use one.  ;)

This is the best part of being in an unincorporated area.  No city government to worry about.  Only the county.  And, of the two other breweries in my county, none of that has ever been a concern.

Now, having said that.  I've had a nice stainless, 3 bay sink in my brewery for quite some time.  It makes keeping things clean for easy.  (a local pizza shop closed up, and had a sale on all their used equipment.  I really wanted the nice 3 sankey kegerator, but my wallet couldn't handle that purchase.  Oh well, the stainless sink only cost me $50.00.
Title: OK, we're doing it
Post by: majorvices on May 23, 2012, 02:38:13 PM
Awesome. We are considering the county for our next build due to lower regulations. Still have to deal with health department but building code much easier.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on May 23, 2012, 02:41:50 PM
Awesome. We are considering the county for our next build due to lower regulations. Still have to deal with health department but building code much easier.

Are you coming to NHC?  If so, stop by the WAHA booth and give my beer a try.  If your bringing any beer, I'd love to try yours.  I appreciate all your comments. 
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: majorvices on May 23, 2012, 04:33:50 PM
Heck yeah, I'm coming. Love to try your beers and am trying to figure out a way to get mine out there as well.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: boulderbrewer on May 26, 2012, 03:00:43 AM
Play you cards right Major and you may get a lot and building paid for by the local government. When moving up you may have the upper hand. Long shot but it could happen, happened for a brewery in WI.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on June 07, 2012, 05:00:30 PM
Well, we got an email from out state LCB.  Looks like they want a lot information.  Much of it is all ready for them as it's the same as the TTB, but a few new things. 

Good thing I'm a pencil pusher for my day job........ 

If all goes well, we should have kegs out by Labor day.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on June 15, 2012, 02:47:26 PM
OK, the "specialist review" was supposed to be due today, and checking the TTB website, nothing has happened.  I guess this is our first real "delay."

Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: boulderbrewer on June 22, 2012, 03:15:18 AM
OK, the "specialist review" was supposed to be due today, and checking the TTB website, nothing has happened.  I guess this is our first real "delay."

Call, permits on line, I did and it turned out that our file was assigned to some one out on maternity leave! The very helpful person got us a new specialist, got an email by the end of that day from a new specialist! SO CALL TOMORROW! ASAP!
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on June 23, 2012, 12:48:42 AM
OK, the "specialist review" was supposed to be due today, and checking the TTB website, nothing has happened.  I guess this is our first real "delay."

Call, permits on line, I did and it turned out that our file was assigned to some one out on maternity leave! The very helpful person got us a new specialist, got an email by the end of that day from a new specialist! SO CALL TOMORROW! ASAP!
BB  Good to hear that.
Wear the tie for the phone interview. I heard it helps :)
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: boulderbrewer on June 25, 2012, 04:42:54 AM
Phone call tomorrow from the TTB. I hope it goes well! Wearing the the dolphin tie the wife loves tomorrow! ;)
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: onthekeg on June 25, 2012, 05:45:33 PM
How did the call go Marc?  Did the tie help? ;D
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: boulderbrewer on June 27, 2012, 03:35:32 AM
No phone interview yet, but no email asking for something else. That is great! I'm amazed how some people get annoyed resending things that have been resent. I won't mention names! My new specialist has been great.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on July 09, 2012, 04:11:12 PM
OK, the "specialist review" was supposed to be due today, and checking the TTB website, nothing has happened.  I guess this is our first real "delay."

Call, permits on line, I did and it turned out that our file was assigned to some one out on maternity leave! The very helpful person got us a new specialist, got an email by the end of that day from a new specialist! SO CALL TOMORROW! ASAP!

Well, we are now in contact with our specialist, and we had to file a variance request, as our brewery will be on residential property.  Doesn't seem to be a big deal though.  She did indicate that it will be at least a couple weeks yet before she can really dig into our application. 
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: boulderbrewer on July 11, 2012, 03:50:47 AM
If you are sitting on your hands waiting for the TTB call your local/state regulatory meet the person you will be dealing with on a day to day. The person on the end of the line is the one who decides how you get your state liscense. Be proactive get to know the state on your side, get a prescreening.

Get the other local municapalities involved. Be Transparent. It will help you in the end. This is my own opinion.

Your milege may vary.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on July 11, 2012, 04:26:33 AM
If you are sitting on your hands waiting for the TTB call your local/state regulatory meet the person you will be dealing with on a day to day. The person on the end of the line is the one who decides how you get your state liscense. Be proactive get to know the state on your side, get a prescreening.

Get the other local municapalities involved. Be Transparent. It will help you in the end. This is my own opinion.

Your milege may vary.

State is being great.  No problems there.  We are not in a city, and the county has no clue.  Which is a good thing.  Found out today the TTB woman is on vacation.  Her supervisor said all we need is the variance letter and we are golden.  Looks like by the end of July.........

Now, for product liability insurance. 
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on July 16, 2012, 03:06:45 PM
Well, the state waived their on-site inspection after we emailed them some pictures.  So, were done with the state now.  Just waiting on the feds, and we had to modify our brewer's bond, as it's in the name of the company, but we are a sole proprietorship, so it has to be in the name of the owner, not the company.  New bond form sent on Friday........

And we brewed Saturday on the relocated brewery system  Some bugs to work out for sure, but, we have beer fermenting, so that's good.  Just my basic session IPA recipe.  Gonna have to figure a way to reuse cooling water.  We are now on city water supply, not the free water I got at my place. 

Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on July 16, 2012, 11:36:06 PM
Just waiting on the feds, and we had to modify our brewer's bond, as it's in the name of the company, but we are a sole proprietorship, so it has to be in the name of the owner, not the company.  New bond form sent on Friday........
As a sole proprietor you (as a individual) are fully responsible for your company liabilities.
Are you aware of this?
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: tschmidlin on July 17, 2012, 06:50:21 AM
Just waiting on the feds, and we had to modify our brewer's bond, as it's in the name of the company, but we are a sole proprietorship, so it has to be in the name of the owner, not the company.  New bond form sent on Friday........
As a sole proprietor you (as a individual) are fully responsible for your company liabilities.
Are you aware of this?
Yeah, I think you want to set it up as an LLC, even if you are the only person working there.

Have you read through this mic?
http://bls.dor.wa.gov/ownershipstructures.aspx
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on July 17, 2012, 03:20:04 PM
Just waiting on the feds, and we had to modify our brewer's bond, as it's in the name of the company, but we are a sole proprietorship, so it has to be in the name of the owner, not the company.  New bond form sent on Friday........
As a sole proprietor you (as a individual) are fully responsible for your company liabilities.
Are you aware of this?

Oh yea, well aware. 
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: nateo on July 17, 2012, 04:48:32 PM
Yeah, we're an LLC and we keep our money in a corporate trust. If you break the corporate veil (for instance by using corporate money as personal money) then even if you're set up as an LLC, you can still be held personally liable.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on July 18, 2012, 01:54:56 AM
Just waiting on the feds, and we had to modify our brewer's bond, as it's in the name of the company, but we are a sole proprietorship, so it has to be in the name of the owner, not the company.  New bond form sent on Friday........
As a sole proprietor you (as a individual) are fully responsible for your company liabilities.
Are you aware of this?

Oh yea, well aware.
I do not mean to scare you or anything.
Good luck.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: anthony on July 18, 2012, 03:07:11 AM
Yeah, we're an LLC and we keep our money in a corporate trust. If you break the corporate veil (for instance by using corporate money as personal money) then even if you're set up as an LLC, you can still be held personally liable.

Be careful here. Breaking the corporate veil is a legal term set aside for when a judgement or a preceding pierces the veil. Like most legal things, there is a factor test involved that guides a judge into actually deciding whether or not to do it. Using the corporate bank account as your personal bank account is certainly a factor that will be counted against you but I've never heard of any case law, at least in my state, where it was the only factor. There are something like 10-12 other factors.

This also really depends on your state. In Illinois for instance, our LLCs are seen as pretty strong and it is very rare for liability to pass through unless the managers were already doing something illegal. But your state may very.

I'm not a lawyer but I'm married to one. And a different lawyer is one our founding partners (and a manager of our LLC). And as alluded to in the other posts, starting an LLC for a business dealing in the alcohol industry is a very good idea.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: nateo on July 18, 2012, 11:54:43 AM
Be careful here. Breaking the corporate veil is a legal term set aside for when a judgement or a preceding pierces the veil. Like most legal things, there is a factor test involved that guides a judge into actually deciding whether or not to do it. Using the corporate bank account as your personal bank account is certainly a factor that will be counted against you but I've never heard of any case law, at least in my state, where it was the only factor. There are something like 10-12 other factors.

I didn't mean to imply that it was the only factor. Using corporate money for personal use is something I see happen a lot, and not a great idea, from a liability standpoint or from an accounting standpoint. When you get taken to court, if you can't show that you're a "proper" corporation, you may be held personally liable.

Since you're dealing with alcohol there's a chance some zealous neo-Prohibitionist lawyer could sue you for the actions of your customers. In the town I grew up there was a case where a bar owner was sued because he served a guy who drove drunk and killed someone. The bar owner won, but it could've gone the other way.   
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: anthony on July 18, 2012, 03:40:00 PM
In Illinois, the Dram Shop act is particularly problematic with regards to that scenario.
Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: micsager on July 19, 2012, 03:05:59 PM
Just waiting on the feds, and we had to modify our brewer's bond, as it's in the name of the company, but we are a sole proprietorship, so it has to be in the name of the owner, not the company.  New bond form sent on Friday........
As a sole proprietor you (as a individual) are fully responsible for your company liabilities.
Are you aware of this?
Yeah, I think you want to set it up as an LLC, even if you are the only person working there.

Have you read through this mic?
http://bls.dor.wa.gov/ownershipstructures.aspx

Yep.  Plus I have a degree in accounting, so while what we're doing may not be the best, it is what it is......

Title: Re: OK, we're doing it
Post by: nateo on July 19, 2012, 03:24:40 PM
In Illinois, the Dram Shop act is particularly problematic with regards to that scenario.

Yeah, those laws are really stupid, unless you also require bar owners to administer BAC tests before serving each round of drinks. If the person ordering the drinks can't use sound judgment, how can the bartender be expected to have sounder judgment without any objective criteria?

Personally, I think every car should have a mandatory breathalizer built in, but I think that'd be a hard sell for all the people who like driving while drunk.