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Other than Brewing => All Things Food => Topic started by: euge on March 28, 2012, 12:00:30 AM

Title: Bagels
Post by: euge on March 28, 2012, 12:00:30 AM
I've found myself eating a lot of bagels. The dense but soft store-bought kind. :-\

Wanted to do a NY-style bagel. I got a crispy chewy exterior and a light interior. Pretty damn good. Instead of malt syrup I used Dark Candi syrup in the mix. None for the boiling water. And I did a 24 hour ferment.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--TXUEX1Q0G0/T3JQlchntnI/AAAAAAAAAZw/Aozinh1wjXY/s640/2012-03-27%252017.24.27.jpg)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-v1WDbIMzBAE/T3JQsqHzeGI/AAAAAAAAAZ4/gOSdW_tg1P0/s640/2012-03-27%252017.55.02.jpg)
The schmeeer: ;D
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-O08exezELvI/T3JSTV5Q1tI/AAAAAAAAAaA/LCkm2QA9qUk/s640/2012-03-27%252018.44.55.jpg)
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: Hokerer on March 28, 2012, 12:32:15 AM
At one time, I took requests and someone asked for pumpernickel.  Until I made those pumpernickel bagels, I never knew the recipe included potatoes.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: punatic on March 28, 2012, 12:49:42 AM
Did you put lye in the boil?
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: bo on March 28, 2012, 01:25:44 AM
Those bagels look good. I've made them a couple of times. Kind of a PITA, but well worth it in the end.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: bluesman on March 28, 2012, 01:31:32 AM
They look great euge.  What's the bread texture like?  I like a toasted everything bagel with Lox and cream cheese...mmm  :)
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on March 28, 2012, 01:40:02 AM
Did you put lye in the boil?

Isn't that pretzels?
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on March 28, 2012, 01:47:17 AM
They look great euge.  What's the bread texture like?  I like a toasted everything bagel with Lox and cream cheese...mmm  :)
Those bagels look good. I've made them a couple of times. Kind of a PITA, but well worth it in the end.

Well worth the effort! I'm going to have to work out a weekly schedule for these things... Too bad I don't have any smoked salmon around. The crumb is light, bubbly and cohesive. Nothing crumbly about these bagels. The exterior is shiny, crisp and chewy. Made them with about 90% bread flour 10% AP. Next time all AP to see how that turns out.

Nice to have the KA to do the kneading.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: denny on March 28, 2012, 02:05:01 AM
It's pretty common to boil bagels in lye water.  When I've made them before I've boiled them in water that's had potatoes boiled in it.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: bo on March 28, 2012, 02:10:15 AM
Try buying lye these days. I ended up using baking soda.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: tygo on March 28, 2012, 02:51:23 AM
Try buying lye these days. I ended up using baking soda.

I saw a tip in Cooks Illustrated a few months back to bake the baking soda to convert it from sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate which is a stronger base.  Not as strong as lye but a good substitute according to the article.  Haven't tried it yet myself.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: bo on March 28, 2012, 02:56:42 AM
Try buying lye these days. I ended up using baking soda.

I saw a tip in Cooks Illustrated a few months back to bake the baking soda to convert it from sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate which is a stronger base.  Not as strong as lye but a good substitute according to the article.  Haven't tried it yet myself.


Interesting: Can you provide some specifics as to time, temp and quantity in the water.


I once thought about trying to make my own lye with my stove ashes. I talked myself out of that adventure.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on March 28, 2012, 03:47:13 AM
Try buying lye these days. I ended up using baking soda.

I saw a tip in Cooks Illustrated a few months back to bake the baking soda to convert it from sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate which is a stronger base.  Not as strong as lye but a good substitute according to the article.  Haven't tried it yet myself.

That Chris Kimball! He's so clever...

What does the alkaline solution do that a sugar solution won't? I used softened water to poach my bagels.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: punatic on March 28, 2012, 08:16:58 AM
I know you have lye on hand euge.  A little dab'l do ya.  NY - Joisey style bagel-making.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: bo on March 28, 2012, 11:34:25 AM
Try buying lye these days. I ended up using baking soda.

I saw a tip in Cooks Illustrated a few months back to bake the baking soda to convert it from sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate which is a stronger base.  Not as strong as lye but a good substitute according to the article.  Haven't tried it yet myself.

That Chris Kimball! He's so clever...

What does the alkaline solution do that a sugar solution won't? I used softened water to poach my bagels.


The lye hydrolizes the proteins in the flour and allows the outside to brown well.


I read that it can be found at Lowes under the name Crystal Drain Opener, but I need to check that out to be sure. This is info from The Fresh Loaf, an extremely good website for baking. When I looked several years ago for a drain opener that contained lye, I came up with nothing at several different supermarkets.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: phillamb168 on March 28, 2012, 12:58:05 PM
I would be very, very, very careful about putting drain cleaner (even if it says it's 100% lye) in anything touching food.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: brewmichigan on March 28, 2012, 01:45:43 PM
I would be very, very, very careful about putting drain cleaner (even if it says it's 100% lye) in anything touching food.

Lye is the ultimate multitasker... Drain cleaner, soap, bagels, bodies, whatever you need.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: bo on March 28, 2012, 02:09:09 PM
You just need to make sure it's pure sodium hydroxide. It can burn you, so be careful. Here's where you can get some lye used for soap making.


http://www.essentialdepot.com/servlet/the-25/2-lbs-Technical-Grade/Detail (http://www.essentialdepot.com/servlet/the-25/2-lbs-Technical-Grade/Detail)
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: bo on March 28, 2012, 03:31:58 PM
I guess I need to update this. That company no longer sells the "technical grade" lye, but they do sell food grade. Here's a link to that. It's not too bad, but as always shipping hits you pretty hard.


 [size=78%]http://www.essentialdepot.com/servlet/the-3/4-lbs-Food-Grade/Detail (http://www.essentialdepot.com/servlet/the-3/4-lbs-Food-Grade/Detail)[/size]
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: tschmidlin on March 28, 2012, 04:42:28 PM
I got my lye from dudadiesel
http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=hydroxide
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: Jimmy K on March 28, 2012, 06:01:21 PM
I would be very, very, very careful about putting NEVER PUT drain cleaner (even if it says it's 100% lye) in anything touching food.

Unless it is food grade drain cleaner.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: Slowbrew on March 28, 2012, 06:10:49 PM
I've always wanted to try using lye with my pretzels but I don't have any and I'm not sure I want 2lbs minus .5 to 1 oz. sitting around.  My wife will put up with a lot hobbies from me but I don't think homemade soap is one of them and 2lbs of lye makes a lot of pretzels.

One question I have is, how do you dispose of it when you're finished?  Do you have to neutralize it somehow?  Does your local municipality appreciate caustics in the sanitary sewer system?  I've only ever used it to "remove" rats from under the corn crib as a kid (Dad thought cans of cyanide seemed too dangerous  ??? ).

Paul
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on March 28, 2012, 06:20:27 PM
If it (lye) is used as drain cleaner in higher concentrations then a little lye-water ought to be relatively benign, though hopefully the roaches will suffer...
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: bo on March 28, 2012, 06:22:01 PM
If it (lye) is used as drain cleaner in higher concentrations then a little lye-water ought to be relatively benign, though hopefully the roaches will suffer...


For bagels, it's only about a teaspoon per quart. Pretzels require a higher concentration.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on March 28, 2012, 06:31:47 PM
OK, those that have made them- do you let the poached dough cool before the oven?

I wasn't sure since the dough was in the water in two batches so 4 bagels weren't steaming and I let the other four cool for a minute or so. Didn't seem to notice much of a difference.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: bo on March 28, 2012, 06:37:21 PM
It's been a while but as soon as I filled a pan, into the oven they went. I would say that the last one dried about a minute.  You do want to shake off as much water as possible so it doesn't pool in the pan.


Actually the steam should help the crust a little.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: punatic on March 28, 2012, 06:43:35 PM
I would be very, very, very careful about putting drain cleaner (even if it says it's 100% lye) in anything touching food.

Too late (by years)!  Am I going to die?

Ace Hardware (http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2845800)
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: denny on March 28, 2012, 06:46:24 PM
Too late (by years)!  Am I going to die?

Ace Hardware (http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2845800)

Why yes, you are....but we all are!  No one here gets out alive....
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: tygo on March 28, 2012, 09:08:23 PM
Try buying lye these days. I ended up using baking soda.

I saw a tip in Cooks Illustrated a few months back to bake the baking soda to convert it from sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate which is a stronger base.  Not as strong as lye but a good substitute according to the article.  Haven't tried it yet myself.


Interesting: Can you provide some specifics as to time, temp and quantity in the water.

I'll have to dig back through the issues to find it.  But here's an article that describes the process as well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/15/dining/15curious.html
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: bo on March 28, 2012, 09:34:11 PM

Copied, pasted and saved.

Thanks, Tygo.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: james on March 29, 2012, 06:03:36 AM
Timely post.  I have to work on my homemade bagels since I just moved away from the only store that sells bagels that were close enough to be called real bagels.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: boulderbrewer on April 01, 2012, 04:06:30 AM
OK, I will pimp some NaOH (food grade), you pay for legal shipping and I can hook you up. Mine is from Essential Depot.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on April 02, 2012, 07:18:26 AM
Made some more. Same recipe but fermented for 36 hours or so. Used 1 Tbs lye for 3 qt of boiling water. Wow they changed color just like I suspected they would. And they look amazing. I can see how pretzels get that mahogany color and shine. Kosher salt and celery seed.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-30XKrNqZQSo/T3lQaYPABLI/AAAAAAAAAaM/fxbRhmN0DyE/s640/2012-04-02%252001.28.29.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-2ss5RobrG2A/T3lQsT9eD-I/AAAAAAAAAac/H3ocn-_S55U/s640/2012-04-02%252002.03.20.jpg)
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: punatic on April 02, 2012, 08:37:56 AM
You realize, of course, that bagels are just doughnuts with a masters degree, yah?   ::)
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: Al Equihua on April 02, 2012, 06:46:50 PM
they look very good and tasty Euge, is been so long since i baked my last bagels
like the color
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: gmac on April 02, 2012, 11:09:37 PM
Can you post a recipe from start to finish? 
I've wanted to make bagels but haven't.  There's a long list of things I haven't found time for.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: The Professor on April 03, 2012, 12:56:55 AM
Made some more. Same recipe but fermented for 36 hours or so. Used 1 Tbs lye for 3 qt of boiling water. Wow they changed color just like I suspected they would. And they look amazing. I can see how pretzels get that mahogany color and shine. Kosher salt and celery seed.

Wow.  Interesting. 
I never heard of a lye soak/boil for bagels.  I've always boiled them in water with some malt extract the way most old time bagel shops do.
Yours look interesting and I may have to give that technique a spin.  They really look good!
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on April 03, 2012, 08:16:45 AM
I got the base recipe from "How to Cook Everything" by Mark Bittman. This is a handy volume on just about everything. I don't agree with everything in the book but it is useful. Then there's google for extra tips.

1 pound flour. I used 50/50 bread/AP flour
2 tbs sugar
2 tsp salt
1-2 tsp dry yeast
1tbs malt extract (I used diy dark candy syrup)

For the water 1tbs lye (sodium hydroxide) per three quarts

I have a stand-mixer but you can use a food-processor or by hand.

Mix dry ingredients except tbs sugar

Proof yeast in 150ml tap water for 15 minutes and add remaining tbs of sugar and syrup when hydrated.

Let sit until foaming and add to the dry mix and achieve a dough. The dough should be slightly sticky but very plastic. Place in greased bowl, cover and let double in size then turn out onto floured surface and punch down a bit. Let rest for 10 minutes covered. Then divide into 8+/- balls or equal pieces. Let rest covered a few minutes to relax. Quickly form bagels and let rest again for 30 minutes covered. I suggest consulting google/youtube for forming techniques.

Once the 30 minute count-down starts turn the oven to 400F and fill a pan with the water and add the lye. Watch out this can be caustic. Probably you could get by with less lye. Cleaned my pan very well!

Add the bagels to the pan and boil them 1-2 minutes each side being careful not to crowd them and remove to racks to cool slightly before going into the 400F oven for 20-25 minutes. Salting or topping is done slightly cooled right before going into the oven.

Now what I did was proof my dough slower which increases flavor and improves consistency. Once made and in it's bowl the dough was covered with cling-wrap and placed into the fridge for 36 hours. It was then removed to the counter until it doubled in size which took about 8 hours. This lag was due to the ceramic bowl being chilled and the AC vent blowing nearby.

In the meantime I brewed two batches of beer because I knew the dough would take that long from experience. ;)

The lengthy rise has given way to a very tasty dough and bagel! So the only other variation was the lye water which I adopted from advice on this thread. I can't see myself making bagels without it now.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: Delo on April 03, 2012, 03:13:58 PM
Made some more. Same recipe but fermented for 36 hours or so. Used 1 Tbs lye for 3 qt of boiling water. Wow they changed color just like I suspected they would. And they look amazing. I can see how pretzels get that mahogany color and shine. Kosher salt and celery seed.

Those look good. Never heard of adding the lye either. They remind me of pretzel rolls I had in Germany.  I love bagels and would love to make them, but have been putting it off since I finally found a shop with good ones.  Now I'll have to try it..... Maybe start on Good Friday and have fresh bagels for Easter.  Thanks for the recipe
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: gmac on April 03, 2012, 03:26:01 PM
Thanks Euge.  I will give these a try.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: james on April 03, 2012, 07:27:34 PM
I got the base recipe from "How to Cook Everything" by Mark Bittman. This is a handy volume on just about everything. I don't agree with everything in the book but it is useful. Then there's google for extra tips.

I've severely downsized my collection of cookbooks and this is one of the few that made the cut.  If I need to look something up I'll check that book and then search online.

I've gotta get back into working on my bagels, the best bagels around came from a grocery store by my old house.  Now that I've moved I'm screwed.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: tygo on April 03, 2012, 10:56:56 PM
I got the base recipe from "How to Cook Everything" by Mark Bittman.

A good editor could almost go through this forum and collect a book of articles entitled, "How to Do Everything From Scratch."

Nice bagels Euge!
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: marty on April 04, 2012, 12:55:44 AM
The lye hydrolizes the proteins in the flour and allows the outside to brown well.

So that's the technical term, I've been saying it "gooifies" the outside
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on April 04, 2012, 01:26:54 AM
B
The lye hydrolizes the proteins in the flour and allows the outside to brown well.

So that's the technical term, I've been saying it "gooifies" the outside
Lol it does something special!
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: bo on April 04, 2012, 01:36:29 AM
B
The lye hydrolizes the proteins in the flour and allows the outside to brown well.

So that's the technical term, I've been saying it "gooifies" the outside
Lol it does something special!


I like gooifies better.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on April 06, 2012, 06:40:49 PM
Have the dough in the fridge. Will pull it out and place in unlit oven for 8 hours while I'm at work! See how well that approach works.

And my last bagel fell victim to mold. :(

Is there any natural way to inhibit such rapid growth of mold? Honey?
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: punatic on April 06, 2012, 08:28:00 PM
Have the dough in the fridge. Will pull it out and place in unlit oven for 8 hours while I'm at work! See how well that approach works.

And my last bagel fell victim to mold. :(

Is there any natural way to inhibit such rapid growth of mold? Honey?

I don't use a mold.  I hand-form mine, sweety...  ;)
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on April 06, 2012, 09:51:08 PM
Have the dough in the fridge. Will pull it out and place in unlit oven for 8 hours while I'm at work! See how well that approach works.

And my last bagel fell victim to mold. :(

Is there any natural way to inhibit such rapid growth of mold? Honey?

I don't use a mold.  I hand-form mine, sweety...  ;)

Hehe. 

As usual having a lot going on mentally I forgot the dough.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: punatic on April 06, 2012, 11:05:00 PM
Have the dough in the fridge. Will pull it out and place in unlit oven for 8 hours while I'm at work! See how well that approach works.

And my last bagel fell victim to mold. :(

Is there any natural way to inhibit such rapid growth of mold? Honey?

I don't use a mold.  I hand-form mine, sweety...  ;)

Hehe. 

As usual having a lot going on mentally I forgot the dough.

(http://www.badhaven.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/doh-homer-simpson.jpg)
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: tschmidlin on April 06, 2012, 11:55:01 PM
Have the dough in the fridge. Will pull it out and place in unlit oven for 8 hours while I'm at work! See how well that approach works.

And my last bagel fell victim to mold. :(

Is there any natural way to inhibit such rapid growth of mold? Honey?
Freezer?
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on April 07, 2012, 12:44:03 AM
Have the dough in the fridge. Will pull it out and place in unlit oven for 8 hours while I'm at work! See how well that approach works.

And my last bagel fell victim to mold. :(

Is there any natural way to inhibit such rapid growth of mold? Honey?
Freezer?

Definitely something I will explore. I wanted- no, needed that bagel this morning.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: punatic on April 07, 2012, 05:56:39 AM
Bagels freeze well.  My wife brings home several dozen from NJ when she goes back to visit family.  They (bagels) freeze/thaw with no problems.  Our slotted toaster has a frozen bagel mode.

Jersey bagels + Puna coffee = YUM!
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on April 07, 2012, 08:39:53 AM
Bagels freeze well.  My wife brings home several dozen from NJ when she goes back to visit family.  They (bagels) freeze/thaw with no problems.  Our slotted toaster has a frozen bagel mode.

Jersey bagels + Puna coffee = YUM!

OK! I will pull the dough out before bed and make when I get up.
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: euge on April 08, 2012, 02:22:13 AM
Another batch out of the oven. This time with 1 tsp lye in three quarts and 2 minute poach per side and 30 minutes in the oven- I'm getting a much better golden color that I like.

Nice and crispy, shiny and with a few gooey bits. Nice. I love bagels.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QMm-45_Il6U/T4DZebmVk-I/AAAAAAAAAa0/hdLZykl_syo/s640/2012-04-07%252019.14.04.jpg)
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: punatic on April 08, 2012, 02:31:27 AM
Oh GREAT! 
First homemade soap - now homemade bagels...  like I really need another thing.

Thanks pal.    ;)

(Those look awesome euge!)
Title: Re: Bagels
Post by: bluesman on April 08, 2012, 02:46:11 AM
hmmm...let's see

beer...bbq...soap...pasta and bagels.

nice combo!  ;)  ???  ;D