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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: dannyj621 on February 01, 2010, 07:08:02 AM

Title: anyone by chance
Post by: dannyj621 on February 01, 2010, 07:08:02 AM
sell their beer they brew? for profit? i was just wondering what you would need to do that either to brew on site or what
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: a10t2 on February 01, 2010, 08:45:05 AM
Short version: you need a liquor license (for a bar) or a production license (for a brewery), or both, depending on the state. You also need a separate space for brewing (i.e. it can't be in your home anywhere I'm aware of, and it may need to be zoned commercial). And of course you have to pay the appropriate taxes at the federal level, and license/label each beer with TTB.

It isn't impossible to do, but it's complicated, enough so that there are attorneys who do nothing else.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 01, 2010, 11:34:09 AM
sell their beer they brew? for profit? i was just wondering what you would need to do that either to brew on site or what

Completely illegal without the proper licensing, and that licensing includes the beer being brewed on a premise other than your home. Basically, if you really want to make a profit on selling your beer, you need to be up around a 7bbl system. Otherwise you will never see a profit - and without the proper lic you could be seeing the inside of a jail!
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: denny on February 01, 2010, 04:13:38 PM
There's an old saying that to make a small fortune in brewing, start with a large fortune.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 01, 2010, 04:55:27 PM
I agree with brewboy, don't let anyone tell you that it can't be done... it also depends on the laws in your area. But you are looking at a lot of man hours just getting the lic. ... and you have to be approved ahead of time. The TTB has to come and inspect your brewery before you ever brew even a batch - and it takes 2-4+ months after they inspect your brewery for you to get your lic. (you will be paying rent that entire time I imagine), and as was mentioned they also have to look at all your recipes, etc. Most cities expect you to have a floor drain and a place at the street where they can pop on in any time they want to look at what you are dumping into their sewage system. You have to pay for that and it ain't cheap. On top of that, you have to spend 5000 up front for your brewers bond (I think that's what it is called, part of your lic.) That's up front. The health dept is going to want to stick their nose in their as well and so does the city building inspector. Then, on top of that you are only going to make around 100 bucks per bbl... so if you have a 1 bbl system and it takes you 8 hours to brew you just made about 100 bucks. Don;t forget, there's kegging and clean up and fermentation still to be done. Of course, if you can sell the beer from your door you can make a lot more - but that depends on the laws in your area. In my area I have to go through a distributor - which sucks!!!

So, all I am saying is it is a lot more complicated than just selling your homebrew out your kitchen door. Not that you can't do that on the downlow (hypothetically, of course  ;)), still, even if you go the illegal route in the end you won't be making any money - not if you count the time it takes for your to brew a batch. Course I guess it would give you good practice for selling prison hooch....

Unless you are selling on the premises it takes upward of around a 7 bbl brewery to really make a profit ... there's a reason why I know all this...  ;)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: denny on February 01, 2010, 04:55:37 PM
Some friends are starting up a brewery here.  I asked them if they were buying used equipment and they said the price differential between new and used was so small that they were buying new.  That way they could also get a system tailored to their needs.  They've spent the last 9 months with investors and lawyers and hope to be running in another 3-4 months.  Apparently, it's been a very expensive process.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 01, 2010, 05:16:29 PM
If I hit the powerball I'll start my own brewery.  ;)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: denny on February 01, 2010, 05:17:55 PM
There was a guy here in OR who opened a brewery after hitting the lottery.  In a few years, he was broke....
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 01, 2010, 05:22:44 PM
There was a guy here in OR who opened a brewery after hitting the lottery.  In a few years, he was broke....

lmao
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 01, 2010, 05:23:54 PM
There was a guy here in OR who opened a brewery after hitting the lottery.  In a few years, he was broke....

It's location, location, location not to mention the facts that one must be able to wear many hats. Did I also say that one must make great beer.  ;D
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 01, 2010, 06:14:21 PM

Just remember, if there wasn't any money to be made in brewing, there'd be no breweries.

Very true.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 01, 2010, 06:17:53 PM
Of course it is true .... but you also have to take into consideration the size batches you need to brew to make money. If it takes you 6-8 hours to brew one batch, and you are only making 100 dollars for your effort .... it ain't  really making money. And if you are only brewing 5 gallon batches ... well .... lets just say it is a lot of work for a very small amount of money. Once you hit the 7bbl system then you can actually turn a profit.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: tygo on February 01, 2010, 06:20:17 PM
There was a guy here in OR who opened a brewery after hitting the lottery.  In a few years, he was broke....

I'd try it if I hit one of them $100M jackpots and just needed something to pass the time   8)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: a10t2 on February 01, 2010, 06:42:11 PM
What makes that the magical number and how can you be so sure of it?

You seem to be banging this drum awfully hard. No offense, but can I see your business plan? I'll show you mine. ;)

For a small-scale on-premises brewery (i.e. the brewhouse and restaurant are separate entities) with one employee, you need to sell roughly 500 bbl a year to keep the lights on and pay yourself minimum wage. So even if you brew every day, you need a 2 bbl system to break even. 7 bbl just happens to be the most common size that's larger than the break-even point. If you want to turn a profit (or god forbid, distribute) you'd better be able to turn over those seven barrels 2-3 times a week. And that doesn't include amortizing the high five- to low six-figure startup costs (which, in this scenario, don't include a liquor license - another six-figure sunk cost in many places).
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 01, 2010, 06:47:40 PM
As usual, a10t2 says it better than I can. Lets also just say I have done a lot of research for reasons I don't feel like sharing right now.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: a10t2 on February 01, 2010, 07:48:02 PM
What drum? What business plan? I'm just questioning the many "professional" skeptics here.  ;D

Well, that was my point. I *do* have a business plan (as, I believe, does Keith) and so we're probably as close as you're going to get to professionals (on this board). If you want real answers you can pop into ProBrewer, but I think they get pretty fed up with questions about starting up from people with post counts of one.

Sorry if I came down on you hard, but you were asking where the numbers come from, and I wanted to illustrate that I'm not just pulling them out of my... mash tun.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 01, 2010, 07:53:18 PM
I love the great success stories like Jim Koch. In 1984 he started the Boston beer company on a shoestring. Now look at him.

Now keep in mind he's the top 5%ers.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 01, 2010, 08:05:44 PM
Oh, I'll come clean sometime soon. You guys are all gonna think I'm crazy when I do, though. Especially given the advice I gave in this thread.  ::)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 01, 2010, 08:08:59 PM
Oh, I'll come clean sometime soon. You guys are all gonna think I'm crazy when I do, though. Especially given the advice I gave in this thread.  ::)

The suspense is mounting.  8)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: denny on February 01, 2010, 08:11:19 PM
Oh, I'll come clean sometime soon. You guys are all gonna think I'm crazy when I do, though. Especially given the advice I gave in this thread.  ::)

Keith, I don't think any of us need any more convincing....;)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 01, 2010, 08:12:34 PM
What's really bad is that it comes through over the interwebs - I'm much crazier in person.  :P
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 01, 2010, 08:20:00 PM
OK, I'll come a little more clean. We are starting with 25K (not counting lease) - and it isn't enough. Our business plan doesn't even have us breaking even for the first 6 months. It's a lot of money and a very scary venture. It's also a blast!
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 01, 2010, 08:33:40 PM
OK, I'll come a little more clean. We are starting with 25K (not counting lease) - and it isn't enough. Our business plan doesn't even have us breaking even for the first 6 months. It's a lot of money and a very scary venture. It's also a blast!

Are you starting a microbrewery or you tried to...?
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 01, 2010, 08:39:04 PM
Yes. No. Maybe. ;)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 01, 2010, 08:48:37 PM
And it won't matter if the beer is good or not!
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: a10t2 on February 01, 2010, 09:57:49 PM
And it won't matter if the beer is good or not!

With some of the micros I've had, I'm not sure that matters anyway...
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 02, 2010, 12:54:31 AM
Yes. No. Maybe. ;)

 :D

That's a yes.  ;)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: beerocd on February 02, 2010, 02:21:57 AM
Sell future cases of beer via PayPal to all of us. Promise them by Christmas. Worst scenario is you are brewing your A$$ off at your house to pay off what you owe us. I'll buy a case - what's your paypal address and how much?

Yeah, there's probably a law against that - go ahead and tell us all about it.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: babalu87 on February 02, 2010, 12:32:15 PM
Have to be able to make money on the FOOD end of it first.
The rest will follow.

Good food and a mix of house beer and regional/commercial beers on tap/bottled.

It will help not to have terrible beer as well.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 02, 2010, 12:35:47 PM
You don't have to do a brewpub to be a brewery, ya know. Running a restaurant is a whole 'nother enchilada.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: babalu87 on February 02, 2010, 01:05:14 PM
Oh I know but thats my dream  ;D

Best burgers and fried seafood around, the beer will keep them at the pub  ;)

The area that I live is in desperate need of a brewpub.

Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: dhacker on February 02, 2010, 01:09:36 PM
The area that I live is in desperate need of a brewpub.

Hmmm . . didn't know we lived in the same area.   ;D
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 02, 2010, 02:48:18 PM
That reminds me I need to get my Powerball ticket today.  ;)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: narvin on February 02, 2010, 03:10:54 PM
You don't have to do a brewpub to be a brewery, ya know. Running a restaurant is a whole 'nother enchilada.

True, but in most states, once you sell off premise you have to go through distribution channels and work a lot harder to get your beer out there.  I've seen a local brewpub-turned-microbrewery-owner go from happy to miserable after making the switch (and, finally, back to happy again 10 years later after his improbable success).
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 02, 2010, 03:35:59 PM
You don't have to do a brewpub to be a brewery, ya know. Running a restaurant is a whole 'nother enchilada.

True, but in most states, once you sell off premise you have to go through distribution channels and work a lot harder to get your beer out there.  I've seen a local brewpub-turned-microbrewery-owner go from happy to miserable after making the switch (and, finally, back to happy again 10 years later after his improbable success).

True. Trust me. I am quite familiar with the issues. But in AL it is almost impossible to open a brew pub in this state due to antiquated laws. And, believe it, running a restaurant is a lot harder than brewing beer.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: beersk on February 02, 2010, 03:39:19 PM
You don't have to do a brewpub to be a brewery, ya know. Running a restaurant is a whole 'nother enchilada.

mmmmmmmmm enchilada...


I went to my local brewpub last night, which isn't really a brewpub any more since they don't brew on site anymore, which is lame as hell.  The beer was okay, there's probably a reason I haven't been there in a couple years...Iowa City needs a real brewpub.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 02, 2010, 03:47:00 PM
Yeah, too many brewpubs use the beer as a gimmick only - you have to be a great restaurant to be a good brewpub. The beer is only secondary. If I were to open a brewery it would be to focus on the beer only. I'd love to do a small tasting room with some appetizers or something - but I HATE restaurant work. Maybe someday down the road I could see doing that if someone else was willing to run that side. Right now, if I open a brewery, it will be production only. As Brewboy said, there's money to be made in production breweries - otherwise there wouldn't be any.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 02, 2010, 04:14:43 PM
Yeah, too many brewpubs use the beer as a gimmick only - you have to be a great restaurant to be a good brewpub. The beer is only secondary. If I were to open a brewery it would be to focus on the beer only. I'd love to do a small tasting room with some appetizers or something - but I HATE restaurant work. Maybe someday down the road I could see doing that if someone else was willing to run that side. Right now, if I open a brewery, it will be production only. As Brewboy said, there's money to be made in production breweries - otherwise there wouldn't be any.

The implications are mounting.   ;D

Is it going to be a 7bbl system to start.  ::)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: denny on February 02, 2010, 04:27:32 PM
Speaking of brewpubs....(OK, I'm going off on a tangent)....

Today is our 30th anniversary.  My wife suggested we take a drive to the coast to go here...

http://pelicanbrewery.com/

Several times it's been voted the most beautiful brewpub location in the US.  Great food and multiple award winning bers don't hurt, either!
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 02, 2010, 05:05:58 PM
http://pelicanbrewery.com/

Several times it's been voted the most beautiful brewpub location in the US.  Great food and multiple award winning bers don't hurt, either!

We loved that place, as we spent 2 night across the street in the Inn.  A little out of the way in a small town, but everything else was super.  Sitting on the patio drinking a Doreyman's Dark and watching the Pacific was one of those perfect moments.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: BrewArk on February 02, 2010, 05:08:51 PM
Speaking of brewpubs....(OK, I'm going off on a tangent)....

Today is our 30th anniversary.  My wife suggested we take a drive to the coast to go here...

http://pelicanbrewery.com/

Several times it's been voted the most beautiful brewpub location in the US.  Great food and multiple award winning bers don't hurt, either!

I'm green.  Never been up the coast past Lincoln City.  But I have had Pelican brews at the OBF in July ;D
Title: !
Post by: denny on February 02, 2010, 05:26:33 PM
Doryman's Dark is one of my faves.  That's what I'm planning on starting with today!
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: roffenburger on February 02, 2010, 05:33:19 PM
Congratulations to you and your wife on your anniversary, Denny!!
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: roffenburger on February 02, 2010, 05:38:21 PM
I would love to open a brewery someday. I have a lot of learning to do first though.

Kansas has the three tier distribution system. This is a huge turnoff. I can't imagine how much is lost in paying the middleman. I also am unsure if I would want to run a restaurant. I've never worked in food, but it doesn't seem like something I would want to do. If I did have a brewpub I would want it to be small.

Maybe something like this:
http://mosbrewpub.com/

A little more glamorous, but something like that. Small, quaint, personal.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: babalu87 on February 02, 2010, 05:41:15 PM
Speaking of brewpubs....(OK, I'm going off on a tangent)....

Today is our 30th anniversary.  My wife suggested we take a drive to the coast to go here...

http://pelicanbrewery.com/

Several times it's been voted the most beautiful brewpub location in the US.  Great food and multiple award winning bers don't hurt, either!

30 years, thats an accomplishment in our times
Congrats to you and the misses

Appetizers

Quote
Calamari – $12.99
The best calamari you'll ever have! Lightly breaded and fried, served with classic marinara and remoulade. Pairing: Kiwanda Cream Ale

OR

Quote
Crab Cakes– $12.99
Dungeness and Rock Crab combined wth our special seasoning blend. Served with two sauces, the first is a sweet grilled red onion - mango salsa , the second is a warm citrus - habenero vinaigrette. Pairing: Kiwanda Cream Ale

Dinner

Quote
IPA Poached Wild Pacific Salmon – $22.99
Poached in IPA-orange juice, honey & spices. Served over a purple potato-fennel hash, braised red chard, and green peppercorn Beer Blanc. Pairing: Kiwanda Cream Ale

OR

Quote
Pacific Coast Crab Cakes – $19.99
Dungeness & Rock crab meat with onion, celery and Japanese breadcrumbs. Served with a sweet grilled red onion - mango salsa and a warm citrus - habanero vinaigrette. Crab cakes are served with steamed rice & coleslaw. Very nice paired with MacPelican's Scottish Ale

Dessert

A scoop of Vanilla in Doryman's Dark Ale

Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 02, 2010, 05:51:11 PM
Congratulations to you and your wife on your anniversary, Denny!!

+1

Wow...30 years!

That's great.

Congrats.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: a10t2 on February 02, 2010, 07:39:10 PM
Kansas has the three tier distribution system. This is a huge turnoff. I can't imagine how much is lost in paying the middleman.

If the brewery can make 10% on bottled beer, they're doing very well. (I don't know anything about KS' system, but I bet that still applies.)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: beerocd on February 02, 2010, 07:49:27 PM

If the brewery can make 10% on bottled beer, they're doing very well. (I don't know anything about KS' system, but I bet that still applies.)

You lost me on that number. Ten percent of (wholesale or retail) price is all that goes to the brewery? Or ten percent is NET profit? Just not sure exactly what was trying to be said there.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: dhacker on February 02, 2010, 07:56:21 PM
Way to go Denny on the 30 years! . . My wife and I will celebrate 30 in October as well.

Apparently, brewers are better lovers!  ;D
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 02, 2010, 08:32:07 PM
OK, I'll come a little more clean. We are starting with 25K (not counting lease) - and it isn't enough. Our business plan doesn't even have us breaking even for the first 6 months. It's a lot of money and a very scary venture. It's also a blast!
Good luck to you.
I am sure you know it but you might be a little under capitalized.

Once I did the math and the amount of beer I would have to make/sell (as a production brewery) was significant.
7barrel is not enough.
General consensus was if you have production brewery you need at least 20 barrel system.
To turn the profit you need to make 3,000 barrels/year.
And what is the most expensive is your tank space and cooperage.
Then you will think twice about converted kegs.
One more thing that gets overlooked is water usage, waste water, and amount of energy you need to make a beer.

I am on your team and holding my fingers crossed for you.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: a10t2 on February 02, 2010, 08:55:20 PM
If the brewery can make 10% on bottled beer, they're doing very well. (I don't know anything about KS' system, but I bet that still applies.)
You lost me on that number. Ten percent of (wholesale or retail) price is all that goes to the brewery? Or ten percent is NET profit? Just not sure exactly what was trying to be said there.

10% profit on the beer. The brewery is generally getting somewhere between a third and half of the cost of the six-pack, of which at most 10% (3-5% of the retail cost) is their profit margin.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 02, 2010, 09:02:08 PM
I am sure you know it but you might be a little under capitalized.

A little under capitalized? You gotta be kidding. That's major under capitalized.  ;) However, I if you did the math on a 7bbl system and you came up short you did your numbers wrong. Not saying it is enough to get rich on but you can break even much smaller than this. I have friends in the brewing industry who are making a profit on a 7bbl system.

I don't have a 7bbl system - not even close. But hope to within a year. I do have a system that is capable of running over 2bbl at a time. That's the crazy part.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: NorthernIke on February 02, 2010, 09:08:59 PM
Where does the $100 profit per barrel number come from?  That make a lot of assumptions around cost of goods sold—and price of goods sold—doesn't it?  I can't imagine this would be a stagnant number, but much more dynamic based on the individual business conditions.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 02, 2010, 09:29:24 PM
Where does the $100 profit per barrel number come from?  That make a lot of assumptions around cost of goods sold—and price of goods sold—doesn't it?  I can't imagine this would be a stagnant number, but much more dynamic based on the individual business conditions.

LOL! You guys crack me up. I guess I should have checked with the forum first before I made business plans.  ;D Actually ... I'm just making this stuff up. Haven't been researching it for over 6 months... I'm just making "assumptions"....    ::)  ;) Seriously, I have met with the local distributor, have talked to local brewers - have even seen the sales numbers for several local breweries and what they sell their kegs for. I have a pretty solid idea what they make off a bbl of beer and what our resources are going to be. The hundred bucks is a round figure I'm throwing out for you guys - there's no need to go into it in detail. Let's just say for the amount of time involved it is not a lot of money. I'm pretty crazy to be doing this - but I'm not totally unprepared.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: beerocd on February 02, 2010, 10:48:25 PM
How about we build a Public Domain business plan? You know like the legal forms you can buy at Staples or Office Max.
There's engineers, accountants, a couple of brewers, probably one or two guys who talk good and can write stuff gooder than the rest of us. Disagreements can be settled with a poll. Then everyone can open a brewery.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: NorthernIke on February 02, 2010, 11:44:12 PM
Where does the $100 profit per barrel number come from?  That make a lot of assumptions around cost of goods sold—and price of goods sold—doesn't it?  I can't imagine this would be a stagnant number, but much more dynamic based on the individual business conditions.

LOL! You guys crack me up. I guess I should have checked with the forum first before I made business plans.  ;D Actually ... I'm just making this stuff up. Haven't been researching it for over 6 months... I'm just making "assumptions"....    ::)  ;) Seriously, I have met with the local distributor, have talked to local brewers - have even seen the sales numbers for several local breweries and what they sell their kegs for. I have a pretty solid idea what they make off a bbl of beer and what our resources are going to be. The hundred bucks is a round figure I'm throwing out for you guys - there's no need to go into it in detail. Let's just say for the amount of time involved it is not a lot of money. I'm pretty crazy to be doing this - but I'm not totally unprepared.

Wow. Just curious. Thought this was a discussion board...
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 03, 2010, 12:20:58 AM
Apologies if I came off too strong. Just sayin' - I've worked my ass off on this thing and ... yeah .... it's a little scary. But I do have an idea what I am talking about and I just think it is funny that someone would second guess that I am simply making assumptions. To a certain extend though, everything is an assumption until you jump into it - sure.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: roffenburger on February 03, 2010, 12:56:47 AM
I wish you luck, Major! So is the reason for "quitting" your job? Do you have a name for the company yet?
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 03, 2010, 01:48:00 AM
I wish you luck, Major! So is the reason for "quitting" your job? Do you have a name for the company yet?
Thanks Roff - my job situation set me up for this. I have a name and will unveil all soon. We are really close.

Quote
Where does the $100 profit per barrel number come from?  That make a lot of assumptions around cost of goods sold—and price of goods sold—doesn't it?  I can't imagine this would be a stagnant number, but much more dynamic based on the individual business conditions.


I agree. Numbers can be run under many scenarios, so to say one profit level applies to all cases, just isn't so..

Obviously I was just giving a white wash answer. I'm not required, nor do I feel compelled to provide all the details. For the beers we plan to start out with we are expecting about 100 bucks per bbl. No where near enough, unfortunately. You may consider my "100 bucks per bbl" quote for illustration purposes only. Obviously YMMV. I do, however, appreciate all the insight.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 03, 2010, 02:00:36 AM
I knew you were going for it.  ;)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 03, 2010, 02:07:43 AM
Quote
I'm not required, nor do I feel compelled to provide all the details.

Nor did anyone ask for those details.

I never said you had to have a 7bbl system to make 100 bucks per bbl. What I said was we were planning to make around 100 bucks per bbl. That may or may not vary, depending. As far as anyone asking - did you not question the numbers I came up with? If not, my mistake. Not sure how I misunderstood that. Please, discuss all you want!
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: tygo on February 03, 2010, 02:14:02 AM
Good luck Major.  Live the dream  ;D
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 03, 2010, 02:19:09 AM
Congats! and Good Luck.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 03, 2010, 12:19:58 PM
Well, thanks for the well wishes. Its going to be a lot of fun and a lot of money. It's been a goal of mine for the last 3 years or so and things have fallen into place that will allow me to have a go at it. I have a small group of guys that are partners and without them it would never come to fruition - but, at the very least my beer will be hitting the local pubs for a year (hopefully by the summer). I may not make any money but it will be a fun project, and hopefully a rewarding one. It helps to have a supporting wife, and it also helps not to have a job.  ;)

Anyway, when the brewery is actually in place I will leak more information. I will say this, it is NOT a 7bbl system. At max it can only pump out a little more than 2 bbls, and we will only be running it at 1 to start. But are hoping to have a 7bbl system in place within 12-18 months of testing the water. Either that, or close shop. At the very least I have gotten a KICK ASS homebrew system out of the deal.! ;D
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: babalu87 on February 03, 2010, 12:32:08 PM
You gonna offer a Black IPA  ;D

Imperial Black Ale is what I've been rolling with.

Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 03, 2010, 12:45:39 PM
You gonna offer a Black IPA  ;D

Imperial Black Ale is what I've been rolling with.



LOL! Am I that transparent? That's exactly why I have been sniffing around the style and questioning the nomenclature. Probably won't launch with it though. We are mostly focusing on German and Belgian ales, but of course you almost have to have a IPA in the line up. And even if you don't we don't have a good local IPA around here. Anyway, our goals are to focus on beers that are focused in European tradition, but that are uniquely American.

Imperial Black Ale - see, I can roll with that name, too.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 03, 2010, 12:48:03 PM
All I can say is kudos to anyone starting a business now or in the near future with this economy.

Oh, BTW, Beer is recession proof.  ;)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: dhacker on February 03, 2010, 01:00:46 PM
Oh, BTW, Beer is recession proof.  ;)

Indeed . . and the upswing in sales of Natural Lite proves it!   ;) :D
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 03, 2010, 01:10:31 PM
Yeah, I just heard a radio broadcast about a brewery who just doubled sales this year. Most microbreweries I have personally talked to have recently doubled capacity and are already maxing out and looking to expand again. I sat down at my house with the guy who is going to be our distributor the other day, his sales are booming - especially craft beer sales. He can;t keep it coming in fast enough.. Selling beer is not going to be a problem. Its making it that is going to kill us. I appreciate you trying to scare me though, but believe me - I don't need your help! There's LOTS of other things I am more worried about right now.

Regardless, if I didn't think there was not a risk I would be delusional. But all great accomplishments involve risk. I think we will make it work, but I also realize it is a good chance we will fail. I'm really not scared to fail.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: akr71 on February 03, 2010, 01:10:41 PM
Wishing you the best of luck, but hoping you won't forget us amateur hobbyists when you are a rich and famous professional brewer!  Your advice has made my cellar empty - there is no shortage of friends willing to take a few bottles of my hands. ;D
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 03, 2010, 01:18:09 PM

but of course you almost have to have a IPA in the line up.

but of course.  ;)  East coast or west coast?
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 03, 2010, 02:48:31 PM
Wishing you the best of luck, but hoping you won't forget us amateur hobbyists when you are a rich and famous professional brewer!  Your advice has made my cellar empty - there is no shortage of friends willing to take a few bottles of my hands. ;D

Thanks man. I will regularly be a homebrew forum geek. That's where all the great beer ideas come from!


but of course you almost have to have a IPA in the line up.

but of course.  ;)  East coast or west coast?

West Coast - it's all about the hopsssss! ;)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 03, 2010, 02:51:54 PM


I wonder when Denny will pop back in and repeat his large fortune, small fortune cliche.   ;D

Seriously though, good luck.

Denny has known about it since November. That's why I was "lol'ing" when he said a guy won the lottery, opened a brewery - and went broke. Because I know he thinks I'm a little crazy for doing this.

I do appreciate the discussion and all the well wishes!
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: denny on February 03, 2010, 04:22:16 PM
Congratulations to you and your wife on your anniversary, Denny!!

Thanks to you all.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: Kaiser on February 03, 2010, 04:47:15 PM
I actually read through the whole thing.

Good luck Major and congrats to Denny.

My dream of opening a brewery was never really strong and died long ago. I have a mortage and family and need a well paying fairly stable job. Too much risk trying to open a brewery. At least for me. And for making good lagers you need an even more expensive system and even more storage space.

Kai
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: beerocd on February 03, 2010, 05:33:30 PM
And for making good lagers you need an even more expensive system and even more storage space.

Outside of us geeks - what percentage of the population do you think could tell ales from lagers?
Maybe you can't technically come up with a lager - but I bet you could come close enough for the general poplulation.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: Kaiser on February 03, 2010, 06:30:30 PM
Outside of us geeks - what percentage of the population do you think could tell ales from lagers?
Maybe you can't technically come up with a lager - but I bet you could come close enough for the general poplulation.

You are probably right. I prefer a micro brewery to brew excellent ales rather than mediocre lagers. I tend to see this with seasonal beers where a brewery that is set up for ales tried its hands on a lager and would have been better off brewing an ale instead. Small breweries and brewpubs also seem to struggle with light colored beers. Just recently I went to one where the lightest beer in the line up had an aroma dominated by sulfur and "yeastiness". The darker beers were ok. I guess they needed to come up with a light beer for the line-up.

Another problem that I see for a small brewery is that they try to push for fermentation schedules that large breweries can get away with w/o having the equipment, analytics and know-how of how to finish a lager in just 3-4 weeks. As a home brewer we have a resource that is very scarce in production brewing: time.

Kai
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: blatz on February 03, 2010, 06:56:28 PM
My dream of opening a brewery was never really strong and died long ago. I have a mortage and family and need a well paying fairly stable job. Too much risk trying to open a brewery. At least for me. And for making good lagers you need an even more expensive system and even more storage space.

mostly the feelings I have - though the dream has not died for me.  in all likelihood, I think the chances of making more money owning my own brewery than in what I do right now are pretty slim.  If I had started homebrewing when I was right out of college and making next to nothing but also had no liabilities, I probably would have been more inclined to scratch that itch.  but I've got a wife who's self employed, 2 mortgages to pay, and kids are on the horizon.

'course my heart breaks every now and then like this weekend when a bunch of my brewclub friends insist I should start one. 

maybe in time, fate will let me scratch that itch.

One thing that does worry me is how many people I hear opening breweries - I met 4 guys this weekend at a party who were drawing up plans (2 of them have no brewing experience  ::)).  Just makes me curious if oversaturation could become an issue given the popularity.

that said - keith's in a good spot as he's sort of in between jobs right now.  And I know he'll get it done right - I mean at least he'll make a proper starter and pitch below fermentation temps!
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 03, 2010, 07:37:13 PM
It's talent, and I mean multi faceted talent. It's passion, dedication, self belief, open mindedness, inspired, can-do and will-do attitude, focused, willing to learn, delegation are the top virtues of a successful businessman. It's a business savy individual with deep pockets and a drive that will never stop. It's location, location, location. Finding talented people to work with you is key as well. A visionary of sorts who can align all of these elements together and make it happen. It's the Vinnie Cilurzo's, the Sam Caglione's and the Jim Koch's that should be your target business models for success.

A millionaire starts with with one dollar and it's the magic after that that makes it work for him.

Making great beer is the easy part in my mind. It's all the other aspects of making a business "successful" that are the challenging parts of a viable business.

Good Luck Keith!  8)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: Kaiser on February 03, 2010, 07:45:17 PM
An alternative business model, that helped the likes like Jim Koch, is contract brewing. While frowned upon by many in the industry it allowed Boston Brewing Co to get a running start w/o the large upfront capital investment needed to start even a small brewery. But for a brewer it is not as exciting since you don’t get to brew your own beer. You are only designing it and find markets for it.

A lot of breweries that are now big and have their own breweries have started out that way. I can think of SA and Harpoon.

Kai
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: beerocd on February 03, 2010, 07:48:37 PM
I'll tell you what's gonna be hard. Charging all your friends for beer. Many old friends and the millions of new ones will be shocked that you are actually charging them for beer. I mean, you made it, so.... it's like....free...
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: babalu87 on February 03, 2010, 08:10:37 PM
One thing that does worry me is how many people I hear opening breweries - I met 4 guys this weekend at a party who were drawing up plans (2 of them have no brewing experience  ::)).  Just makes me curious if oversaturation could become an issue given the popularity.

That happened locally.

The beer is atrocious. Not ever drinkable. I bought a 6 pack and drank half a beer. Maybe it will be good in bread or  a Belgian beer/beef stew.
IPA and i has issues, one is not enough late hops.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 03, 2010, 08:16:13 PM

One thing that does worry me is how many people I hear opening breweries - I met 4 guys this weekend at a party who were drawing up plans (2 of them have no brewing experience  ::)).  Just makes me curious if oversaturation could become an issue given the popularity.


We are in good shape for that - there are no good local breweries here yet (there is one very bad one!). There is one good distributing brewery that just opened about 100 miles away. And there are a few in Nashville, but only one that actually distributes (Yazoo brewing, meh - I don't care for them much either). When you walk into a bar and you can't get a good local IPA something is wrong. We usually drink Bells Two Hearted - I personally like my IPA better. Where I live the beer scene is just starting to hit and a lot of people from all over the country live here so people are ready and excited for a good local beer. I would almost certainly not try this if I lived in ... say Portland.  ;)

An alternative business model, that helped the likes like Jim Koch, is contract brewing. ...


I will admit without shame that we will consider it when the time comes and have discussed it several times as a viable option.

I'll tell you what's gonna be hard. Charging all your friends for beer. Many old friends and the millions of new ones will be shocked that you are actually charging them for beer. I mean, you made it, so.... it's like....free...


Bwahahahaha! I hadn't thought of that! screw 'em! As long as I get free beer I don't care! ;D
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: mtbrewer on February 03, 2010, 08:24:50 PM
One thing that does worry me is how many people I hear opening breweries - I met 4 guys this weekend at a party who were drawing up plans (2 of them have no brewing experience  Roll Eyes).  Just makes me curious if oversaturation could become an issue given the popularity.

I was a Chef for sixteen years, I saw people try to open a restaurant with zero experience. They would always fail, so I would not worry about brewers with no experience. The thing i would worry about is turning something you love to do into work. I sure hope it works out for you!!
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 03, 2010, 08:43:21 PM
The thing i would worry about is turning something you love to do into work. I sure hope it works out for you!!

I had an office job for 17 years .... and it SUCKED! I never want to do that again, ever.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: mtbrewer on February 03, 2010, 08:46:45 PM
The thing i would worry about is turning something you love to do into work. I sure hope it works out for you!!

I had an office job for 17 years .... and it SUCKED! I never want to do that again, ever.
No Doubt, that would drive me to the brink of insanity. I love to work outdoors. Sixteen years in the kitchen sucked as well. :(
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: Kaiser on February 03, 2010, 09:45:43 PM
An alternative business model, that helped the likes like Jim Koch, is contract brewing. ...


I will admit without shame that we will consider it when the time comes and have discussed it several times as a viable option.


There should be no shame to this. It is a very attractive option if you are looking to satisfy a large market quickly rather than starting small and struggling your way up. Maureen Ogle’s book Ambitious Brew makes mention of the fact that early microbrewers faced a conundrum: to little money to brew a lot of beer and to little beer to make more money to get a larger brewery. Some avoided that through contract brewing and some of them have become very successful.

With CB you can also show potential investors (Banks) a list of accounts you supply and a revenue stream that makes them more willing to lend you more money. That means you can build a large brewery once you commit to having your own brewery. If it doesn’t work out and you don’t get established in the market you would have also failed with your own brewery.

You’ll still have a pilot system to develop beers.

Let’s face it. Being a successful brewer is more about being able to sell beer than being able to brew beer with your own hands. Otherwise many more of us would become professional brewers.

Kai
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: roffenburger on February 03, 2010, 10:11:32 PM
I like to think that the "masses" are slowly coming to their senses.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: NorthernIke on February 03, 2010, 11:23:28 PM
One thing that does worry me is how many people I hear opening breweries - I met 4 guys this weekend at a party who were drawing up plans (2 of them have no brewing experience  Roll Eyes).  Just makes me curious if oversaturation could become an issue given the popularity.

I was a Chef for sixteen years, I saw people try to open a restaurant with zero experience. They would always fail, so I would not worry about brewers with no experience. The thing i would worry about is turning something you love to do into work. I sure hope it works out for you!!b

Didn't this happen with the first craft beer wave in the early 90's?  Lots of cheap used equipment for the rest of us!
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: coypoo on February 03, 2010, 11:55:04 PM

One thing that does worry me is how many people I hear opening breweries - I met 4 guys this weekend at a party who were drawing up plans (2 of them have no brewing experience  ::)).  Just makes me curious if oversaturation could become an issue given the popularity.

This is what scares me the most about opening a brewery. I live in Denver and there are great micropubs everywhere, so it would be really really hard to get a piece of that market. People who dont really know that much about opening a brewery always say "you could be the next sierra nevada," but they dont understand that SN has been around for over 20 years now and when they first started there was hardly any craft beers available. Now, that could be a detrement b/c there wasnt that big of an audience for the product, but now in places like Denver where there is such a large audience, there are just too many different breweries offering great beer. So it is location, location, location. It sounds like Major has a good one, and there are always people who want to try new beer, and the numbers of those kind of people are increasing everyday, so I bet major is going to do just fine.

It still is fun to day dream about it though
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: bluesman on February 03, 2010, 11:58:42 PM


Let’s face it. Being a successful brewer is more about being able to sell beer than being able to brew beer with your own hands. Otherwise many more of us would become professional brewers.

Kai


Absolutely right on the mark. We all know you already have the brewing skills and knowledge.

I think if you are able to target the competition and beat them to the punch...you will win.  ;)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: rabid_dingo on February 04, 2010, 12:01:45 AM
Congrats Denny!
Good luck Major!

And by the way. The nomenclature I have seen for black "IPA"
is India Brown Ale / India Black Ale....It works and the one
specifically I have enjoyed is Boulder Brewing's Aniversary Ale...Tasty!

So IBA...

I have two brewing friends and we go back and forth over the should we or not...
Would you want a hobby to become "work" I would hate to one day
wake up and think, "Arrrgh, I am to tired to go brew today."
I commend you for overcoming that fear and going for it.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: babalu87 on February 04, 2010, 12:36:41 PM
I like to think that the "masses" are slowly coming to their senses.

Bud, Miller, Coors
Sales DOWN just over 2% for the year

Craft beer
Sales UP around 9%
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 04, 2010, 12:38:15 PM
Thanks for all the well wishes everyone! I have heard people say over the years they "don't want to turn a hobby into a job" - but I guess that is what I did twenty years ago when I turned art into an education and subsequent career. I still enjoy it all these years later and can fall back on it if necessary.

As far as brewing goes, one of the best parts about brewing for me is when other people are impressed by my beer (that's second to the actual beer itself - the drinking part  ;)). Art is very, very similar. Artist want people to appreciate their work - and that is kind of the point I am at with my beer. That may sound corny, but it is the way I feel about it. I'm looking forward to brew days - not looking forward to clean-up or kegging. The good news is I have a couple of partners so I don't have nearly as much on my shoulders as I would had I been setting out on this venture alone. I really do get to concentrate on the brewing, which will be fun.

If this doesn't work (which I am well aware it might not) I have a few other things I want to try and the luxury to have the time to try them. But I am going to give this a go for at least a year and see what happens. Can't wait to fire up that mash, I really can't!!
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: redbeerman on February 04, 2010, 01:02:25 PM
Good luck to you , Keith!  Success comes from hard work and not taking "no" for an answer.  Persistance = success.

Congrats, Denny.  Marriage is like that too.  Persistance = success, with a bit of compromise thrown in. ;)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: dhacker on February 04, 2010, 01:03:44 PM
Is this going to be in/ near Huntsville?? May have to drive down when she's up and running . .  :)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 04, 2010, 01:11:52 PM
Is this going to be in/ near Huntsville?? May have to drive down when she's up and running . .  :)

Yup. we have a few good beer bars here now, believe it or not. If you wan to come let me know and you can drink at the brewery. Won't be till summer though.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: dhacker on February 04, 2010, 01:14:59 PM
FIELD TRIP!!   :D
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: babalu87 on February 04, 2010, 02:33:19 PM
My 7 year old boy is drilling me to bring him to Talladega for a NASCAR race.

3 hours is a bit much for a road trip.

A few more years anyway, I told him thats a trip where we leave mommy and his sister at home  ;D
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 04, 2010, 03:59:50 PM
3 hours? Hell I drive twice that far for a weekend back packing trip. I admit the drive home is a b**** though.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 04:08:13 PM
New Englanders...  ::)

Three hours isn't a road trip. Hell, in a lot of places it's barely a commute.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: babalu87 on February 04, 2010, 04:18:17 PM
3 hours? Hell I drive twice that far for a weekend back packing trip. I admit the drive home is a b**** though.

I drive three hours to a brew pub, have a few beers and then drive another 3 hours.

I'll drive 5 for a weekend trip


New Englanders...  ::)

Three hours isn't a road trip. Hell, in a lot of places it's barely a commute.

Anyone that commutes 3 hours is a friggin moron
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 04:33:51 PM
Anyone that commutes 3 hours is a friggin moron

No argument here. Just don't say that to half the people who work in Manhattan. ;D
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 04, 2010, 04:45:27 PM
Bud, Miller, Coors
Sales DOWN just over 2% for the year

Craft beer
Sales UP around 9%

Lies,
Damn lies
and statistics.

Sorry about that but you can twist numbers any way it gives you answer you like :(
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: dbeechum on February 04, 2010, 05:34:42 PM
Anyone that commutes 3 hours is a friggin moron

Or lives in Los Angeles. :)

I drive 36 miles round trip to work every day (except Thursday when I get to code in the peace and quiet of home). If there weren't any traffic it would take me 20 minutes each way. But oy, the time it takes some days.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: denny on February 04, 2010, 05:36:13 PM
Heh heh...I live 30 miles out of town on 14 beautiful wooded acres with 400 ft. of river frontage.  Takes me 25 min. to get to work....
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: babalu87 on February 04, 2010, 05:38:57 PM
Anyone that commutes 3 hours is a friggin moron

Or lives in Los Angeles. :)

I drive 36 miles round trip to work every day (except Thursday when I get to code in the peace and quiet of home). If there weren't any traffic it would take me 20 minutes each way. But oy, the time it takes some days.

Oh no doubt there are days.
I worked in Boston for a time.....................................

Commutes from hell, we've all seen them but I'll stand by what I said.

FWIW I consider a 3 hour commute to be BOTH WAYS, not just the occasional bad afternoon ride home

I'm only on 6 acres Denny. 30 mile commute, 35 minutes or so.
You have river frontage............... you have a submersible to cool the wort with during Spring run-off :D
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: enso on February 04, 2010, 05:41:35 PM
New Englanders...  ::)

Three hours isn't a road trip. Hell, in a lot of places it's barely a commute.

Yeah but you flatlanders have nice straight parallel and perpendicular flat roads without giant frost heaves!

Ya can't get tha from hea'

 ;)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: dbeechum on February 04, 2010, 05:43:49 PM
I worked in Boston for a time.....................................

FWIW I consider a 3 hour commute to be BOTH WAYS, not just the occasional bad afternoon ride home

I never understood why anyone living outside of the city would do anything other than heigh your butt to the nearest commuter. I really do miss the T out here, but given the relative sizes of the cities.

And I have co-workers who do that 3 hours... One lives down in Manhattan Beach and it's pure traffic - about the same distance as my commute, much much longer times in. Another at least lives all the way out in Lancaster. By the time he realised he wasn't just working the job "temporarily" his son was well established in the community and he didn't want ot rip him out of there. Egads.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: brewboy on February 04, 2010, 05:46:19 PM
You give up a lot on conveniences living in the country, but what you gain, far outweighs the losses.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: majorvices on February 04, 2010, 05:56:20 PM
Heh heh...I live 30 miles out of town on 14 beautiful wooded acres with 400 ft. of river frontage.  Takes me 25 min. to get to work....

Got you beat - I live 30 minutes from town on wooded acreage but I don't have to go anywhere right now.  8)
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: BrewingRover on February 04, 2010, 06:35:43 PM
I worked in Boston for a time.....................................

FWIW I consider a 3 hour commute to be BOTH WAYS, not just the occasional bad afternoon ride home

I never understood why anyone living outside of the city would do anything other than heigh your butt to the nearest commuter. I really do miss the T out here, but given the relative sizes of the cities.

And I have co-workers who do that 3 hours... One lives down in Manhattan Beach and it's pure traffic - about the same distance as my commute, much much longer times in. Another at least lives all the way out in Lancaster. By the time he realised he wasn't just working the job "temporarily" his son was well established in the community and he didn't want ot rip him out of there. Egads.
Man, I do not miss LA. Actually, I miss some things, but I don't miss working there.

There's a brewer I know in Eugene who is pushing "Cascadian Dark Ale" instead of Black IPA. I don't think that will stick.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: akr71 on February 04, 2010, 06:39:47 PM
Heh heh...I live 30 miles out of town on 14 beautiful wooded acres with 400 ft. of river frontage.  Takes me 25 min. to get to work....

I walk 800 yards to work from home and walk home at lunch to let the dog out.  Except when its my turn to drive the kids to daycare & school, but that's maybe a 3 mile cicuit - small town livin' is grand  ;D
We hope to someday be outside of town on an acreage, but we're content where we are while the kids are young.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: denny on February 04, 2010, 07:01:03 PM
There's a brewer I know in Eugene who is pushing "Cascadian Dark Ale" instead of Black IPA. I don't think that will stick.

That's a very different beer than a black IPA, though.....
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: BrewingRover on February 04, 2010, 07:18:54 PM
There's a brewer I know in Eugene who is pushing "Cascadian Dark Ale" instead of Black IPA. I don't think that will stick.

That's a very different beer than a black IPA, though.....
Talk to Matt at Oakshire. You should anyway, he's a hell of  a nice guy and brews some good beers.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: denny on February 04, 2010, 07:31:26 PM
I know Matt well.  He not only judged the Sasquatch Homebrew contest for me last year, he brought a keg of their special Sassie beer for the judge's lunch!  I got a keg filled with theoir excellent IPA from him recently.  IIRC, the Cascadian uses a Belgian yeast and rye, besides being as hoppy as an AIPA.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: BrewingRover on February 04, 2010, 07:49:08 PM
I know Matt well.  He not only judged the Sasquatch Homebrew contest for me last year, he brought a keg of their special Sassie beer for the judge's lunch!  I got a keg filled with theoir excellent IPA from him recently.  IIRC, the Cascadian uses a Belgian yeast and rye, besides being as hoppy as an AIPA.
Tell him Greg from Flossmoor says hello when you get a chance. We were sad to see him go but it sounds like he's making the most of his new opportunities.
Title: Re: anyone by chance
Post by: denny on February 04, 2010, 07:56:15 PM
Will do, Greg!  Matt's a great guy and he's making some great beers.