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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: redbeerman on April 01, 2012, 10:01:28 PM

Title: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: redbeerman on April 01, 2012, 10:01:28 PM
The last two beers I've brewed with S-05 have had a slight sour tang in the finish.  These batches have been ten gallons with five fermented with S-05 and five fermented with various lager yeasts.  The lagers have turned out very clean.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: majorvices on April 02, 2012, 02:25:23 AM
I've used it literally a hundred times or more and never had that problem.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: deepsouth on April 02, 2012, 02:54:45 AM
i've used it in two of my last three beers and i haven't had that problem. 
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: utawana on April 02, 2012, 03:40:49 AM
I'm thinking two things - astrigency or a mild to moderate wild yeast infection. The couple of times I've experienced "sour" notes from my pale ales are either from excessive sparges (astrigency) or if a local yeast sets up camp.  Did you sparge a lot or push the boundaries of sanitation in some way?
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: redbeerman on April 02, 2012, 04:02:10 PM
I'm thinking two things - astrigency or a mild to moderate wild yeast infection. The couple of times I've experienced "sour" notes from my pale ales are either from excessive sparges (astrigency) or if a local yeast sets up camp.  Did you sparge a lot or push the boundaries of sanitation in some way?

I've only noticed it with this yeast, split batches with a lager yeast for the other half, with no problems.  The beers were not very highly hopped.  I haven't noticed this with the IPAs I've made with S-05.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: a10t2 on April 02, 2012, 05:06:40 PM
I get that from US-05 every time. Whatever it is, the liquid Chico strains don't produce it (or at least, not enough that it's perceptible).
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: utawana on April 02, 2012, 05:08:24 PM
yeah that is pretty odd - if you fermented the 05 at a higher temp than the lager yeast batches, maybe that allowed for a wild yeast to propagate - the lager batches being too cold.
ehhhh, stab in the dark for sure.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: thomasbarnes on April 03, 2012, 09:40:36 AM
I recently tasted a homebrewed Pils which had a similar problem. It's a sort of light lactic tang, but without the usual lactic thin body/gushing head. The brewer said that the beer had been stable with that flavor for months.

Not likely to be a wild yeast. They don't usually throw that sort of sour aroma.

I'm baffled as to what caused it. If you could get that sour taste consistently, it would be very nice for fruit beers or light summer beers.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: a10t2 on April 03, 2012, 02:06:17 PM
Not likely to be a wild yeast. They don't usually throw that sort of sour aroma.

I'm baffled as to what caused it.

It's definitely the US-05 that's causing it. There's just no way I had the same contaminant in that many (probably 80 or so) batches.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: thebigbaker on April 03, 2012, 02:48:49 PM
With my limited brewing experience, I can't offer much explanation on why you are getting sour notes, but I can tell you I haven't had any sour issues with using 05.  I've only been brewing since Oct and have used 05 for 3 APAs, 2 IPAs, and 2 Milk Stouts and none of those had any "sour" issues.  It will be interesting to see what is contributing those sour notes w/ your 05 batches.

On a different note, I recently brewed one APA with 1056 (with the same recipe that I used for one of my previous APA) and my friends and I really couldn't tell any difference between 1056 and 05.   
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: majorvices on April 04, 2012, 03:23:33 PM
Not likely to be a wild yeast. They don't usually throw that sort of sour aroma.

I'm baffled as to what caused it.

It's definitely the US-05 that's causing it. There's just no way I had the same contaminant in that many (probably 80 or so) batches.

Even though I use WLP001 regularly I sometimes sub US-05 for my IPA and IIPA. I definitely think US-05 is a little "harsher" in character - not as smooth as 001 = but in no way is it "sour". I'll bring a bottle out to Seattle and let you decide if it is 001 or US-05.  ;)
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: a10t2 on April 04, 2012, 04:05:42 PM
Even though I use WLP001 regularly I sometimes sub US-05 for my IPA and IIPA. I definitely think US-05 is a little "harsher" in character - not as smooth as 001 = but in no way is it "sour". I'll bring a bottle out to Seattle and let you decide if it is 001 or US-05.  ;)

I'll take that bet, Keith. ;D

"Sour" isn't quite the right word. I usually describe it as "sharp". It fades to just a sort of musty unpleasantness over time. In a really hoppy beer it isn't really noticeable. But I've done triangle tests and can pick out the US-05 every time.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: majorvices on April 04, 2012, 04:48:26 PM
I would say it has a more "dusty" character for lack of a better word. Not quite as clean, definitely not as noticeable in hoppy ales, as you say. "Mild yeast bite" is how I guess I would characterize it.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: thomasbarnes on April 06, 2012, 05:03:53 AM
I would say it has a more "dusty" character for lack of a better word. Not quite as clean, definitely not as noticeable in hoppy ales, as you say. "Mild yeast bite" is how I guess I would characterize it.

I always think of "yeast bite" as being due to autolysis. Perhaps the yeasties are dying before they flocc out, or perhaps you just need to be really aggressive about racking off the trub once you get the clarity you want.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: Pinski on April 06, 2012, 05:42:30 AM
Interesting, I recently did an APA with 05. 5 gal. dry hopped the other 5 gal. not.  There was definitely an unusual 'sharp note' in non-dry hopped keg that I've not tasted in previous batches with 05.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: majorvices on April 06, 2012, 11:18:28 PM
I would say it has a more "dusty" character for lack of a better word. Not quite as clean, definitely not as noticeable in hoppy ales, as you say. "Mild yeast bite" is how I guess I would characterize it.

I always think of "yeast bite" as being due to autolysis. Perhaps the yeasties are dying before they flocc out, or perhaps you just need to be really aggressive about racking off the trub once you get the clarity you want.

I don't think so. And I use conicals and dump yeast and rack to brights so I'm sure that's not even close to being an issue. Anyway, I'm familiar with autolysis and that's not the flavor I would describe it as. It's a "fuzzy" taste to my palate. WLP001 is just more clean, though for aggressive American styles I don't think most folks will pick it up. I only notice it when brewing mock alts or cleaner beer styles that would normally use a lager yeast like CAP or blondes, etc.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: tubercle on April 07, 2012, 12:56:58 AM
I usually pitch ale yeast at 62f except S-05, I pitch it at 57f.

No problems 8)
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: majorvices on April 07, 2012, 01:23:42 AM
I agree that US-05 can be pretty clean pitched super cool like that. Still not as clean as WLP001 though. And I'm not saying it is a "problem" per se, just a result.  ;)

FWIW before I switched my alt over to a German Ale yeast I used WLP001. I always kept a brick of US-05 on hand for those times that I needed to brew but didn't have a crop of yeast ready. The IPA and IIPA were just fine with the US-05, and I still don't hesitate to brew those style with that dry yeast. But the Alt was just never quite right, even pitched at 58 degrees. Just had a "roughness" to the flavor that wasn't there with WLP001. certainly wasn't "sour" though. Just not as clean.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: tubercle on April 07, 2012, 01:38:00 AM
Could "roughness' be also described as a "characteristic"? It seems every element of brewing; malt hops  and yeast brings its own dynamic?

 Roughness conjurs up negative which may not be. ;)
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: majorvices on April 07, 2012, 04:07:24 AM
Try brewing an alt or CAP grain bill, and then split the batch with US-05 and WLP001. Then let me know your impressions.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: tubercle on April 07, 2012, 05:02:30 AM
I use the term characteristic because I have never tasted a bad beer, just different ones...js

I appreciate them all. Not that picky
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 07, 2012, 11:46:53 AM
Try brewing an alt or CAP grain bill, and then split the batch with US-05 and WLP001. Then let me know your impressions.
A good friend in the club did this with a Blonde Ale (I think, or was it an APA). He is one of the most meticulous brewers I know, and has many many BoS in comps, and several medals at the NHC.  I would say this experience was not due to sloppy technique. He split a 10 gallon batch 3 ways with 1056/001/US-05.

US-05 was sharper and finished a little "tart" not bad. 001 was more nuetral and better than US-05 in peoples opinion. 1056 was the favorite, as it seemed to have the best flavor and a "rounded" finish.  The taste difference was not large in the 3, and it was smallest between 001 and 1056.

Hey guys - this would be a great thing for a club to do for Club Night.  It would give people a chance to see for themselves, and make their own decissions. 

Title: Re: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: erockrph on April 07, 2012, 12:55:20 PM
A good friend in the club did this with a Blande Ale

Blande Ale? Doesn't sound very interesting. Is it a Coors clone?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: majorvices on April 07, 2012, 01:08:53 PM
I use the term characteristic because I have never tasted a bad beer, just different ones...js

I appreciate them all. Not that picky

Didn't say it was bad, just not as good. And I own a brewery - I have to picky. You can brew a pretty darn good alt with WLP001 (or actually, in my case I use Wyeast - so 1056) but you can't brew the exact same beer with US-05. It's just not as good. IPA and IIPA the difference is not nearly as apparent.
Title: Re: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 07, 2012, 01:21:34 PM
A good friend in the club did this with a Blande Ale

Blande Ale? Doesn't sound very interesting. Is it a Coors clone?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk
Thanks for the correction.  Can't type very well this AM.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: tubercle on April 07, 2012, 06:36:50 PM
I use the term characteristic because I have never tasted a bad beer, just different ones...js

I appreciate them all. Not that picky

Didn't say it was bad, just not as good. And I own a brewery - I have to picky. You can brew a pretty darn good alt with WLP001 (or actually, in my case I use Wyeast - so 1056) but you can't brew the exact same beer with US-05. It's just not as good. IPA and IIPA the difference is not nearly as apparent.

I agree, you have to be extremely picky about the product from your brewery. Customers are cruel judges when their expectations are not met.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: majorvices on April 08, 2012, 01:51:46 PM
Understand though, I'm certainly not saying you can't make great beer with US-05. I'm a big fan on that yeast and it's convenience alone makes it worth pitching in many, many styles that work well with a clean yeast flavor. I'm just saying I have noticed differences between it and the liquid strain, and that IME the liquid strain is more "clean".
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: redbeerman on April 08, 2012, 07:05:53 PM
Try brewing an alt or CAP grain bill, and then split the batch with US-05 and WLP001. Then let me know your impressions.
A good friend in the club did this with a Blonde Ale (I think, or was it an APA). He is one of the most meticulous brewers I know, and has many many BoS in comps, and several medals at the NHC.  I would say this experience was not due to sloppy technique. He split a 10 gallon batch 3 ways with 1056/001/US-05.

US-05 was sharper and finished a little "tart" not bad. 001 was more nuetral and better than US-05 in peoples opinion. 1056 was the favorite, as it seemed to have the best flavor and a "rounded" finish.  The taste difference was not large in the 3, and it was smallest between 001 and 1056.

Hey guys - this would be a great thing for a club to do for Club Night.  It would give people a chance to see for themselves, and make their own decissions.

Yes, sharp or tart, not exactly sour, though it could be mistaken for that.  I'm pretty fussy about sanitizing, so I doubt that it's bugs.  And like I said the lagers made from the same wort have no recognizable faults.  I am drinking a beer at the moment that was fermented using Danstar Windsor, and it has a clean, malty palate. My IPAs and DIPAs are pretty well hopped and I believe that may mask the tartness from S-05.  And, for sure, I haven't noticed it with WLP-001.  I must say, I have better results using liquid strains.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: ynotbrusum on April 10, 2012, 10:23:11 PM
I had some tart taste in a Mocktoberfest brewed a little too warm (65F or so).  I blamed it on the fermentation temperature, because I will use US-05 in cream ales all the time (at about 58-59F or lower) without that sharp finish.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: redbeerman on April 12, 2012, 01:27:13 PM
I had some tart taste in a Mocktoberfest brewed a little too warm (65F or so).  I blamed it on the fermentation temperature, because I will use US-05 in cream ales all the time (at about 58-59F or lower) without that sharp finish.

I did as well.  It was a split batch 1/2 S-05, the other WLP833.  The lager half turned out great, the ale half had some tartness.  I'm thinking it may be related to sparge pH and the attenuation of the yeast making that fault more noticeable.  I too, ferment S-05 at 65-70F (beer temp) most of the time.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: majorvices on April 12, 2012, 03:10:27 PM
I had some tart taste in a Mocktoberfest brewed a little too warm (65F or so).  I blamed it on the fermentation temperature, because I will use US-05 in cream ales all the time (at about 58-59F or lower) without that sharp finish.

I did as well.  It was a split batch 1/2 S-05, the other WLP833.  The lager half turned out great, the ale half had some tartness.  I'm thinking it may be related to sparge pH and the attenuation of the yeast making that fault more noticeable.  I too, ferment S-05 at 65-70F (beer temp) most of the time.

cool it down a bit and I think you will notice it much less. I pitch at 58-60 and ferment at 64 ramping it up only after the krausen starts to fall.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 12, 2012, 03:57:51 PM
Since there is this other thread (http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=11730.msg146908#msg146908) discussing a tart finish using Nottingham, I'm just curious if this could be related somehow to dry yeast.

I've also gotten tartness from Windsor.

My repertoire of dry yeast is not so broad, but there's three right there that have finished tart. 

I wouldn't have thought of this if these two threads weren't going simultaneously...

I know lots of people have good results with dry yeast and I don't mean to crap all over dry yeast, but...
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: bluesman on April 12, 2012, 04:44:10 PM
I had some tart taste in a Mocktoberfest brewed a little too warm (65F or so).  I blamed it on the fermentation temperature, because I will use US-05 in cream ales all the time (at about 58-59F or lower) without that sharp finish.

I did as well.  It was a split batch 1/2 S-05, the other WLP833.  The lager half turned out great, the ale half had some tartness.  I'm thinking it may be related to sparge pH and the attenuation of the yeast making that fault more noticeable.  I too, ferment S-05 at 65-70F (beer temp) most of the time.

cool it down a bit and I think you will notice it much less. I pitch at 58-60 and ferment at 64 ramping it up only after the krausen starts to fall.

+1

I think Keith is on point here. Give it a shot in your chiller just below 60F next time...Jim.
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: redbeerman on April 12, 2012, 06:13:29 PM
I had some tart taste in a Mocktoberfest brewed a little too warm (65F or so).  I blamed it on the fermentation temperature, because I will use US-05 in cream ales all the time (at about 58-59F or lower) without that sharp finish.

I did as well.  It was a split batch 1/2 S-05, the other WLP833.  The lager half turned out great, the ale half had some tartness.  I'm thinking it may be related to sparge pH and the attenuation of the yeast making that fault more noticeable.  I too, ferment S-05 at 65-70F (beer temp) most of the time.

cool it down a bit and I think you will notice it much less. I pitch at 58-60 and ferment at 64 ramping it up only after the krausen starts to fall.

+1

I think Keith is on point here. Give it a shot in your chiller just below 60F next time...Jim.

I will try that with my IPA this weekend.  Not that I would notice any tartness in that hop bomb ;)
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: ynotbrusum on April 12, 2012, 09:14:38 PM
I have an APA with some crystal malt (another discussion) going right now at 58F using rehydrated US-05.  I am expecting it to be on the sweet side.  It has been going since Saturday, so I will let it free rise later this weekend or sometime next week when it looks closer to being finished in the primary.  Hopefully it will be tart-free.

Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: dee on April 13, 2012, 02:14:08 AM
Something is definitely up.  I split a 10 gallon batch between US05 and WY1450 in a session rye pale ale and the US05 definitely has a tang that I've never tasted before.  I don't get infections.  EVER.  I'd be shocked if that was the case.  There was never any evidence of infection, the fermentation was normal and I kept both beers under identical conditions.  I thought maybe it was just my perception but my friend agreed it tastes twangy.  I wish I'd saved the pack to identity the lot.  It is dry, as expected, but has a tang that the WY1450 does not.
Title: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: majorvices on April 13, 2012, 10:52:40 AM
Dee - what temp ate you fermenting the us-05 and what temp did you start it out?
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: dee on April 16, 2012, 11:31:46 PM
Dee - what temp ate you fermenting the us-05 and what temp did you start it out?

I pitched at 64 in a water bath and let it free rise to about 70 over the course of 5 days.  This was a small beer (1.040) so it was a really quick fermentation with the WY1450 finishing at 1.010 in 3 days.  I haven't brewed this recipe before with the same yeast but the US05 batch had a slight sourness that was not present in the WY1450 batch.  I would not attribute that flavor to the rye although it is possible.  I'm brewing an IPA this week with US05 and I'll definitely be interested to see if I encounter this flavor again. 
Title: Re: Sour finish in beers using S-05
Post by: Joe Sr. on April 16, 2012, 11:55:31 PM
I actually went back and checked my brew log.  I have notes of "tart" or "sour" for Saflager US-56 (S-50), Windsor, and Nottingham going back for years.

I never would have noticed the correlation but for the recent threads.

I also poured a glass of my Nottingham London Pride clone for my wife this weekend.  She liked it and called it nice and tart.

I think I'm done with dry yeast but for emergencies.  At least for a while.