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General Category => Kegging and Bottling => Topic started by: deepsouth on April 03, 2012, 12:18:54 AM

Title: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: deepsouth on April 03, 2012, 12:18:54 AM
i bottled a beer to bring to homebrew club meeting, in two weeks, in a growler.  it's a 64 oz. screw top growler. 

i've never made a bottle bomb, so i hope this isn't the first.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: tom on April 03, 2012, 12:55:34 AM
No reason it should be unless you overcarbonated it.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: deepsouth on April 03, 2012, 01:48:51 AM
i used 3.6 oz of regular sugar per some website where i did it to the "robust porter" style.   5 gallons of beer, so i'm hoping i'm good.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: bluesman on April 03, 2012, 01:53:41 AM
Assuming you fermented the beer to terminal gravity...you should be in good shape with that amount of sugar for 5 gal of a Porter.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: deepsouth on April 03, 2012, 02:44:45 AM
Assuming you fermented the beer to terminal gravity...you should be in good shape with that amount of sugar for 5 gal of a Porter.

two weeks primary and a week in secondary.  i didn't check before bottling, but it was down to 1.021 (from 1.082) at the end of the second week.  i feel certain it was down all the way. 
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: bluesman on April 03, 2012, 02:52:30 AM
Assuming you fermented the beer to terminal gravity...you should be in good shape with that amount of sugar for 5 gal of a Porter.

two weeks primary and a week in secondary.  i didn't check before bottling, but it was down to 1.021 (from 1.082) at the end of the second week.  i feel certain it was down all the way.

That's 74% AA. Which yeast strain did you use?
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: Jimmy K on April 07, 2012, 03:31:47 PM
You'd have to really screw up to have a bottle bomb in two weeks anyway.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: deepsouth on April 14, 2012, 08:47:40 PM
Assuming you fermented the beer to terminal gravity...you should be in good shape with that amount of sugar for 5 gal of a Porter.

two weeks primary and a week in secondary.  i didn't check before bottling, but it was down to 1.021 (from 1.082) at the end of the second week.  i feel certain it was down all the way.

That's 74% AA. Which yeast strain did you use?

i used two packages of safale-s04...

sorry....  i've been off the grid a bit.....  lasek....  i can kind of see now.  can't wait until i'm 100%.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: euge on April 15, 2012, 06:56:56 AM
Just remember that low pressure in a large volume is more powerful than high pressure in a small volume. The growler can probably withstand normal carbonation and since it is only 2 quarts I wouldn't worry.

Now a carboy... that would be shady. :o
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: tschmidlin on April 15, 2012, 07:43:02 AM
Just remember that low pressure in a large volume is more powerful than high pressure in a small volume. The growler can probably withstand normal carbonation and since it is only 2 quarts I wouldn't worry.

Now a carboy... that would be shady. :o
I'm not sure what you mean by this euge.  Pressure is not more or less powerful depending on the size of the vessel.  I larger vessel may be structurally weaker, but that's not the same thing.  :-\
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: euge on April 15, 2012, 08:10:02 AM
Just remember that low pressure in a large volume is more powerful than high pressure in a small volume. The growler can probably withstand normal carbonation and since it is only 2 quarts I wouldn't worry.

Now a carboy... that would be shady. :o
I'm not sure what you mean by this euge.  Pressure is not more or less powerful depending on the size of the vessel.  I larger vessel may be structurally weaker, but that's not the same thing.  :-\

Actually that is not correct. Of course it seems counterintuitive because high pressure in a large volume is dangerous as well. I'm looking for the equation... maybe some of our engineer friends have it.

Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: tschmidlin on April 15, 2012, 08:37:42 AM
Just remember that low pressure in a large volume is more powerful than high pressure in a small volume. The growler can probably withstand normal carbonation and since it is only 2 quarts I wouldn't worry.

Now a carboy... that would be shady. :o
I'm not sure what you mean by this euge.  Pressure is not more or less powerful depending on the size of the vessel.  I larger vessel may be structurally weaker, but that's not the same thing.  :-\

Actually that is not correct. Of course it seems counterintuitive because high pressure in a large volume is dangerous as well. I'm looking for the equation... maybe some of our engineer friends have it.


Are you talking about PV=nRT?  I don't see how that applies.  Some other equation?

I think I have no idea what you mean by "more powerful", because it's obviously something different from what I mean.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: euge on April 15, 2012, 09:14:18 AM
Force exerted over the area would be better than "powerful". Sorry. I'm dragging 30 year old knowledge out. Wish I had that equation handy. You would never have to build a big bottle thicker- such as a champagne bottle to contain the pressure, based on your assumption. A longneck can can easily hold the volumes a champagne bottle holds. Whereas if the champagne bottle had walls the thickness of the longneck it would be more likely to rupture from the pressure.

A growler is usually pretty hefty. I'd trust less than 3 volumes in mine.
 

Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: tschmidlin on April 16, 2012, 05:47:28 AM
Force exerted over the area would be better than "powerful". Sorry. I'm dragging 30 year old knowledge out. Wish I had that equation handy. You would never have to build a big bottle thicker- such as a champagne bottle to contain the pressure, based on your assumption. A longneck can can easily hold the volumes a champagne bottle holds. Whereas if the champagne bottle had walls the thickness of the longneck it would be more likely to rupture from the pressure.

A growler is usually pretty hefty. I'd trust less than 3 volumes in mine.
 
It's been a long time for me too, but not 30 years :) 

I see what you mean now, but you're still a bit off the mark.  I mean, you're kind of right, but for the wrong reasons.

It is independent of the volume of the vessel, what matters is the radius of the cylinder.  As the radius of the cylinder increases, the wall thickness will need to increase in order to withstand the same pressure because the glass is subject to higher stress.  It is the shape that matters, not the size.  A 12 oz bottle shaped like a whiskey flask will need thicker walls than a cylindrical 12 oz bottle.  By the same token, a cylindrical 64 oz bottle with the same wall thickness and radius as a standard 12 oz bottle (and as tall as it needs to be) will hold the pressure just as well as the 12 oz bottle.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: bo on April 16, 2012, 11:27:47 AM
Force exerted over the area would be better than "powerful". Sorry. I'm dragging 30 year old knowledge out. Wish I had that equation handy. You would never have to build a big bottle thicker- such as a champagne bottle to contain the pressure, based on your assumption. A longneck can can easily hold the volumes a champagne bottle holds. Whereas if the champagne bottle had walls the thickness of the longneck it would be more likely to rupture from the pressure.

A growler is usually pretty hefty. I'd trust less than 3 volumes in mine.
 
It's been a long time for me too, but not 30 years :) 

I see what you mean now, but you're still a bit off the mark.  I mean, you're kind of right, but for the wrong reasons.

It is independent of the volume of the vessel, ...

That's not necessarily true, because the volume will increase as the radius increases. If it doesn't, than the surface area of the  top and bottom would be increasing to make up for the reduced wall height.

It's pounds per square inch and that force isn't just exerted on the sides. In the case of growlers, the top and bottom are thicker by design, so the walls are the weak point.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: deepsouth on April 16, 2012, 05:18:10 PM
just an update.... no explosion.....  i'm going to refrigerate it on sunday as it will have been in there three weeks and it's three weeks before the next hbc meeting.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: euge on April 16, 2012, 05:52:43 PM
just an update.... no explosion.....  i'm going to refrigerate it on sunday as it will have been in there three weeks and it's three weeks before the next hbc meeting.

Ahhhh I can rest easy! ;)

About my assertion, which I learned in highschool Chem 2 and then was also taught about this later when I worked for Dowell Schlumberger in the 1980's. In fact we spent an entire afternoon with VHS presentations. ::) We worked the equation, plugging variables, and even some of the engineers didn't believe it at first.

We worked around high and low pressure equipment, pumps, storage tanks etc. The intent was to raise the awareness that a low pressure containment system can rupture easily and catastrophically, but more so that hatches can blow open when unlatched and crush people with even a small differential in hydrostatic pressure. Intent was that we not let our guard down just because some thing is of relatively low PSI, atmospheres, pascals etc...



Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: bo on April 16, 2012, 06:04:25 PM
just an update.... no explosion.....  i'm going to refrigerate it on sunday as it will have been in there three weeks and it's three weeks before the next hbc meeting.

Ahhhh I can rest easy! ;)

About my assertion, which I learned in highschool Chem 2 and then was also taught about this later when I worked for Dowell Schlumberger in the 1980's. In fact we spent an entire afternoon with VHS presentations. ::) We worked the equation, plugging variables, and even some of the engineers didn't believe it at first.

We worked around high and low pressure equipment, pumps, storage tanks etc. The intent was to raise the awareness that a low pressure containment system can rupture easily and catastrophically, but more so that hatches can blow open when unlatched and crush people with even a small differential in hydrostatic pressure. Intent was that we not let our guard down just because some thing is of relatively low PSI, atmospheres, pascals etc...

I have great respect for anything under pressure, especially a keg full of beer. :)
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: bbkf on April 16, 2012, 06:25:15 PM
years ago i filled up a sanitized growler with primed beer.  It worked just fine.

the only problem was that the yeast and gunk at the bottom mixed into the beer when pouring.

If you could pour the whole thing in one step into a pitcher, you'd be better off.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: tschmidlin on April 17, 2012, 01:01:13 AM
It is independent of the volume of the vessel, ...

That's not necessarily true, because the volume will increase as the radius increases. If it doesn't, than the surface area of the  top and bottom would be increasing to make up for the reduced wall height.

It's pounds per square inch and that force isn't just exerted on the sides. In the case of growlers, the top and bottom are thicker by design, so the walls are the weak point.
It is necessarily true. ;) That changing the radius also increases the volume in your example is secondary.  Increasing the radius without increasing the volume would also require an increase in wall thickness.  Picture an oval bottle - it must be thicker to hold the same pressure.  Here is the equation:

σ = pr/t

where σ is stress, p is pressure, r is the radius, and t is the wall thickness.  Since v (volume) does not appear in the equation, it is independent of the volume. ;)

About my assertion, which I learned in highschool Chem 2 and then was also taught about this later when I worked for Dowell Schlumberger in the 1980's. In fact we spent an entire afternoon with VHS presentations. ::) We worked the equation, plugging variables, and even some of the engineers didn't believe it at first.

We worked around high and low pressure equipment, pumps, storage tanks etc. The intent was to raise the awareness that a low pressure containment system can rupture easily and catastrophically, but more so that hatches can blow open when unlatched and crush people with even a small differential in hydrostatic pressure. Intent was that we not let our guard down just because some thing is of relatively low PSI, atmospheres, pascals etc...
I think it is probably a common misconception, because it works in many cases and for most people it is a good enough explanation.  If you are going to keep more or less the same shape and relative dimensions, it is certainly true.  But the shape is really the thing that matters.  My undergrad was in Mechanical Engineering - I remembered the concept, but had to go look for the equation. :)  It's a thin walled pressure vessel, there are a lot of websites that talk about it.

just an update.... no explosion.....  i'm going to refrigerate it on sunday as it will have been in there three weeks and it's three weeks before the next hbc meeting.
Glad it worked :)
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: bo on April 17, 2012, 01:44:19 AM
It is independent of the volume of the vessel, ...

That's not necessarily true, because the volume will increase as the radius increases. If it doesn't, than the surface area of the  top and bottom would be increasing to make up for the reduced wall height.

It's pounds per square inch and that force isn't just exerted on the sides. In the case of growlers, the top and bottom are thicker by design, so the walls are the weak point.
It is necessarily true. ;) That changing the radius also increases the volume in your example is secondary.  Increasing the radius without increasing the volume would also require an increase in wall thickness.  Picture an oval bottle - it must be thicker to hold the same pressure.  Here is the equation:

σ = pr/t

where σ is stress, p is pressure, r is the radius, and t is the wall thickness.  Since v (volume) does not appear in the equation, it is independent of the volume. ;)



If you increase the radius you will increase the volume, even if it is secondary. Volume is what this discussion is about.  You're splitting hairs, don't you think?

There is also a lot more to bottle pressure design than just the size of the radius. I'm sure corners, neck heights, etc. play a part.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: narvin on April 17, 2012, 02:03:02 AM
This doesn't make sense to me.  But, I'm too lazy to investigate.  :)  All I will say is don't bottle to Champagne pressure in a standard bottle -- they make 11 oz champagne (and Duvel, Orval, etc) thick for a reason.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: tschmidlin on April 17, 2012, 05:28:29 AM
If you increase the radius you will increase the volume, even if it is secondary. Volume is what this discussion is about.  You're splitting hairs, don't you think?
I am not splitting hairs, you have failed reading comprehension. :) An oval bottle has an increased radius and the volume may not be any larger.  It still has to be thicker.  St. Peter's in England bottles in green bottles with an oval profile.  They have thicker glass.  They are 12 oz bottles.  Increasing the radius did not increase the volume. ;)

There may be manufacturing considerations, but in general corners are stronger because they have a tight radius.  The neck has a tighter radius too.  The height doesn't matter, because the linear stress uses this equation:

σlinear = pr/2t

where σ is stress, p is pressure, r is the radius, and t is the wall thickness.  The height isn't even in the equation.  Note that this is the same equation as for the hoop stress except it is divided by 2, so the stress in that direction is half. ;)

You keep telling yourself it's the volume that matters though, that's fine, you'll be right sometimes. ;D
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: morticaixavier on April 17, 2012, 06:16:58 AM
I see your growler conditioned ale and raise you two quarts of kegged stout I just bottled up in mason jars  ;D

Couldn't figure out a good way to get the beer to brew club tomorrow night and the mason jars were just sitting there.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: bo on April 17, 2012, 11:25:57 AM
If you increase the radius you will increase the volume, even if it is secondary. Volume is what this discussion is about.  You're splitting hairs, don't you think?


There may be manufacturing considerations, but in general corners are stronger because they have a tight radius.  The neck has a tighter radius too.  The height doesn't matter, because the linear stress uses this equation:



And once again, you're wrong, but you're right sometimes. ;)

http://eagar.mit.edu/EagarPapers/Eagar206.pdf (http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/EagarPapers/Eagar206.pdf)

Please note the following in the results:

"However, for all bottles that did not fail at artificially-
induced discontinuities (including bottles
with no induced discontinuities), fracture initiated
at the base of the bottle. Figure 1 shows one such
bottle, which broke at 2.25 MPa. This is most likely
due to the stress concentration present where the
side of the bottle joins the base."

IE the corners, which are almost always weak points.

As for the green bottles you mentioned, the thicker walls could be for added strength or it could be for asthetics. Keep in mind that manufacturing processes can change the strength of glass.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: deepsouth on April 17, 2012, 12:06:44 PM
I see your growler conditioned ale and raise you two quarts of kegged stout I just bottled up in mason jars  ;D

Couldn't figure out a good way to get the beer to brew club tomorrow night and the mason jars were just sitting there.


even better!!!  hahahaha.  i should have used mason jars!
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: tschmidlin on April 17, 2012, 04:19:31 PM
If you increase the radius you will increase the volume, even if it is secondary. Volume is what this discussion is about.  You're splitting hairs, don't you think?


There may be manufacturing considerations, but in general corners are stronger because they have a tight radius.  The neck has a tighter radius too.  The height doesn't matter, because the linear stress uses this equation:



And once again, you're wrong, but you're right sometimes. ;)

http://eagar.mit.edu/EagarPapers/Eagar206.pdf (http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/EagarPapers/Eagar206.pdf)

Please note the following in the results:

"However, for all bottles that did not fail at artificially-
induced discontinuities (including bottles
with no induced discontinuities), fracture initiated
at the base of the bottle. Figure 1 shows one such
bottle, which broke at 2.25 MPa. This is most likely
due to the stress concentration present where the
side of the bottle joins the base."

IE the corners, which are almost always weak points.

As for the green bottles you mentioned, the thicker walls could be for added strength or it could be for asthetics. Keep in mind that manufacturing processes can change the strength of glass.
Ok, the corners are discontinuities which are weak points.  This is what I meant by manufacturing considerations, but I concede your point.  See how easy it is to admit when you're wrong or appear to be wrong? ;)  But the height still doesn't matter, and neither does the neck.

And back to the original point - find me a paper that says it depends on the volume.  Good luck.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: tschmidlin on April 17, 2012, 04:22:38 PM
As for the green bottles you mentioned, the thicker walls could be for added strength or it could be for asthetics. Keep in mind that manufacturing processes can change the strength of glass.
Sure, it could also be because little pink fairies told them to do it that way.  But physics says it has to be thicker to hold the same pressure.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: bo on April 17, 2012, 05:16:27 PM
As for the green bottles you mentioned, the thicker walls could be for added strength or it could be for asthetics. Keep in mind that manufacturing processes can change the strength of glass.
Sure, it could also be because little pink fairies told them to do it that way.  But physics says it has to be thicker to hold the same pressure.

Well, since you've resorted to condescending remarks, I'll bow out. The intelligent discussion is obviously over with.
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: tschmidlin on April 17, 2012, 07:40:27 PM
As for the green bottles you mentioned, the thicker walls could be for added strength or it could be for asthetics. Keep in mind that manufacturing processes can change the strength of glass.
Sure, it could also be because little pink fairies told them to do it that way.  But physics says it has to be thicker to hold the same pressure.

Well, since you've resorted to condescending remarks, I'll bow out. The intelligent discussion is obviously over with.
That's fine.  It's my fault, because I'm mean. ::)

Clearly you are only coming up with reasons to deny reality, and now you can leave without admitting you are wrong.  Good for you.  ::)
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: jds357 on May 21, 2012, 06:57:12 PM
I've carbonated in a swing top growler and a screw cap.  Both work fine however, I prefer the swing top. Just make sure you don't over prime and you should be fine.  A great alternative to a glass growler is a stainless steel growler.  A company in Oregon makes them.  They are called Braulers and they are awesome.  When people worry about bottle bombs but still want to carb in small containers, I point them in that direction.  Full Sail Brewing co. currently sells them. 

http://www.thezythosproject.com/ (http://www.thezythosproject.com/)

Let us know how your beer turned out man!

Jonathan
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: liquidbrewing on May 23, 2012, 09:33:07 PM
Just remember that low pressure in a large volume is more powerful than high pressure in a small volume. The growler can probably withstand normal carbonation and since it is only 2 quarts I wouldn't worry.

Now a carboy... that would be shady. :o
I'm not sure what you mean by this euge.  Pressure is not more or less powerful depending on the size of the vessel.  I larger vessel may be structurally weaker, but that's not the same thing.  :-\

I'm no mathmetician here, but  why does a 15.5 gallon keg, thicker walled SS, say it's rated for 60 psi only?  Our homebrew soda kegs, are rated for 130 psi, and they're thinner walled SS than my big kegs.  I must have missed some algebra classes or something...Oh yeah I was homeschooled! 8)
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: tschmidlin on May 24, 2012, 06:08:00 AM
Just remember that low pressure in a large volume is more powerful than high pressure in a small volume. The growler can probably withstand normal carbonation and since it is only 2 quarts I wouldn't worry.

Now a carboy... that would be shady. :o
I'm not sure what you mean by this euge.  Pressure is not more or less powerful depending on the size of the vessel.  I larger vessel may be structurally weaker, but that's not the same thing.  :-\

I'm no mathmetician here, but  why does a 15.5 gallon keg, thicker walled SS, say it's rated for 60 psi only?  Our homebrew soda kegs, are rated for 130 psi, and they're thinner walled SS than my big kegs.  I must have missed some algebra classes or something...Oh yeah I was homeschooled! 8)
I don't know, it could be the fittings.  Or it could be they lie about the safe pressure to allow a bigger margin of safety. ;)
Title: Re: bottled a beer in a screw top growler, wish me luck....
Post by: weithman5 on May 24, 2012, 01:02:09 PM
some general concepts about pressure vessels from my former life.
1.  a vessel can withstand increased pressure as its wall thickness goes up. (same diameter cylinder with bigger wall will do better)
2.  a vessel can withstand increased pressure as its radius drops  (smaller diameter cylinder with same wall thickness will do better)
3.  a cylinder is better than a square and a sphere is better than a cylinder.  pressure is distributed against the wall perpendicular to the wall.  this causes increased stress at corners.
4.  pressure test with liquid and not gas.  the stored energy in a liquid will dissipate quickly in a failure while that of a compressed gas does not