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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: nateo on April 05, 2012, 07:49:01 PM

Title: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: nateo on April 05, 2012, 07:49:01 PM
Sorry if this has been covered before, but my google skills fail me.

Does anyone know of any supplier for undermodified pils malt? Does such a thing exist anymore?

I've seen floor-malted Bohemian pils from a few stores. Is that the same, or is it pretty well-modified?
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: bluesman on April 05, 2012, 07:53:25 PM
Weyermann has a Bohemian Pilsner Malt that is slightly undermodified and is suitable for use with a decoction mash.

http://www.weyermann.de/eng/produkte.asp?idkat=203&umenue=yes&idmenue=37&sprache=2
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: jmcamerlengo on April 05, 2012, 07:55:56 PM
Floor Malted is not the same. Its the technique used in the malting process. I generally prefer floor malted stuff, like Weyermann Floor Malted Bohemian Pils Malt or Warminster Maris Otter. It is fully modified IIRC.

Briess does make an undermodified Pils Malt but it is the only one I know of. Ive thought about getting some to see if decocting really makes a difference in flavor with undermodifed as opposed to using fully modified malt.
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: nateo on April 05, 2012, 08:00:40 PM
Weyermann has a Bohemian Pilsner Malt that is slightly undermodified and is suitable for use with a decoction mash.

I found this: http://www.weyermann.de/downloads/pdf/Voigt_Poster_Trends%20in%20Brewing%20Ghent%202010.pdf

I'll probably go with that if I can't find anything less modified.
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: bluesman on April 05, 2012, 08:02:11 PM
Weyermann has a Bohemian Pilsner Malt that is slightly undermodified and is suitable for use with a decoction mash.

I found this: http://www.weyermann.de/downloads/pdf/Voigt_Poster_Trends%20in%20Brewing%20Ghent%202010.pdf

I'll probably go with that if I can't find anything less modified.

Yes it's slightly undermodified and a good fit for a Czech Pils.

Try here.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brewing/brewing-ingredients/grain-malts/base-malts/weyermann-floor-malted-bohemian-pilsner-malt.html
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: nateo on April 05, 2012, 08:02:52 PM
Briess does make an undermodified Pils Malt but it is the only one I know of. Ive thought about getting some to see if decocting really makes a difference in flavor with undermodifed as opposed to using fully modified malt.

That's what I'm trying to do. I looked into the Briess. I didn't see it on their website. Do you know of anyone carrying it?
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: nateo on April 05, 2012, 08:07:07 PM
Try here.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brewing/brewing-ingredients/grain-malts/base-malts/weyermann-floor-malted-bohemian-pilsner-malt.html

I actually found a little better deal at Rebel, $1.59/lb.
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: bluesman on April 05, 2012, 08:11:12 PM
Try here.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/brewing/brewing-ingredients/grain-malts/base-malts/weyermann-floor-malted-bohemian-pilsner-malt.html

I actually found a little better deal at Rebel, $1.59/lb.

Sounds good!  :)
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: narvin on April 05, 2012, 08:30:04 PM
Weyermann has a Bohemian Pilsner Malt that is slightly undermodified and is suitable for use with a decoction mash.

I found this: http://www.weyermann.de/downloads/pdf/Voigt_Poster_Trends%20in%20Brewing%20Ghent%202010.pdf

I'll probably go with that if I can't find anything less modified.

One interesting thing to note is that they don't do a traditional triple decoction.  There are no steps between 100 and 149 F, other than the ramp up of the decoction to boil.
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: nateo on April 05, 2012, 08:40:48 PM
One interesting thing to note is that they don't do a traditional triple decoction.  There are no steps between 100 and 149 F, other than the ramp up of the decoction to boil.

The Kolbach is listed as 38. From Noonan: "Malts destined for infusion mashing should have an SNR of 36-42%,. . . For traditional lager malts, 30-33% indicates undermodification, and 37-40% indicates overmodification."

I was hoping to find some of the "traditional lager malts" he's talking about, in the 34-36% range, but I don't think those exist anymore.

I found this spec sheet for the Briess pilsen malt. It looks pretty good, even though the Kolbach is 37. http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets/PDFs/Briess_PISB_PilsenMalt.pdf
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: thomasbarnes on April 06, 2012, 05:10:07 AM
I was hoping to find some of the "traditional lager malts" he's talking about, in the 34-36% range, but I don't think those exist anymore.

What are you trying to achieve with the lower diastatic power? You might be able to lower the overall conversion potential of the mash by adding some Munich, Vienna or light toasted malt.
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: 4swan on April 06, 2012, 12:36:43 PM
Austin Homebrew Supply has the Briess undermodified Pils on sale for $0.99/lb.

http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=12808
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: nateo on April 06, 2012, 01:59:25 PM
4swan - The Briess "undermodified" malt still has a Kolbach index of 37, which is "overmodified" by traditional lager malt standards. It's less modified than most malt, but still more modified than I was hoping to find.

Thomas - Low DP is not the reason I'm trying to find poorly modified malt. There are low-DP, highly modified malts, like some British pale malts. I'm looking for malt with a low soluble nitrogen ratio, suitable for traditional decoction mashing. 
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: morticaixavier on April 06, 2012, 02:54:31 PM
4swan - The Briess "undermodified" malt still has a Kolbach index of 37, which is "overmodified" by traditional lager malt standards. It's less modified than most malt, but still more modified than I was hoping to find.

Thomas - Low DP is not the reason I'm trying to find poorly modified malt. There are low-DP, highly modified malts, like some British pale malts. I'm looking for malt with a low soluble nitrogen ratio, suitable for traditional decoction mashing.

looks like maybe it's time to get that old two bucket malting bucket setup out and roll your own. If'n ya can't buy y'just might havta make yer own
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: nateo on April 06, 2012, 02:57:46 PM
looks like maybe it's time to get that old two bucket malting bucket setup out and roll your own. If'n ya can't buy y'just might havta make yer own

A year or two ago I came across the website for some guy who made his own countertop "floor" malting system. It looked really sweet. Any idea where I can buy raw Bohemian barley?

I can get raw 6-row at the Mennonite store down the road, but I don't know how good that'll be for what I'm trying to do.
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: morticaixavier on April 06, 2012, 03:01:48 PM
looks like maybe it's time to get that old two bucket malting bucket setup out and roll your own. If'n ya can't buy y'just might havta make yer own

A year or two ago I came across the website for some guy who made his own countertop "floor" malting system. It looked really sweet. Any idea where I can buy raw Bohemian barley?

I can get raw 6-row at the Mennonite store down the road, but I don't know how good that'll be for what I'm trying to do.

I will let you know if I find any. I know it's possible to get regular north american 2 row. There is a place in Reno NV called Rebel malting and he will sell you unmalted harrington barley by the sack. If you want a specific heirloom cultivar that's going to be trickier. I have been searching for heirloom cultivars for a while now and have not found any really solid leads. The north american barley growing scene is very much bleeding edge oriented as it is still very much a commodity crop and the small indi farmers have not paid attention to it much yet. Consider it on my list of varieties to find.
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: nateo on April 06, 2012, 04:04:15 PM
Morti- Colorado Malting Company sells unmalted 2-row barley too, not sure what they kind they grow. I'm not really sure if I'm up for growing my own. I mean, I have a field and a tractor, but I wouldn't know where to start.
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: morticaixavier on April 06, 2012, 04:53:02 PM
Morti- Colorado Malting Company sells unmalted 2-row barley too, not sure what they kind they grow. I'm not really sure if I'm up for growing my own. I mean, I have a field and a tractor, but I wouldn't know where to start.

wow, a field and a tractor is one tractor and about 3/4 of a field more than I have! For what it's worth I think the main thing is not to much nitrogen and planting in the fall. It's actually a really good winter cover crop, and if you return your waste to the fields a pretty good green manure.
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: nateo on April 06, 2012, 05:01:02 PM
wow, a field and a tractor is one tractor and about 3/4 of a field more than I have! For what it's worth I think the main thing is not to much nitrogen and planting in the fall. It's actually a really good winter cover crop, and if you return your waste to the fields a pretty good green manure.

I don't think the field has been farmed since the 60s, maybe earlier. Right now it's just full of grass. I'm not sure if I have a plow to hitch to the tractor.

You can't plant malt, can you? 
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: denny on April 06, 2012, 05:05:19 PM
 Your location has a lot to do with whether it's worth it to even try to grow barley (no, you can't plant malt...malt is made from barley).  Dan Listermann tried growing malt in Ohio and reportedly harvested about 10% as much as he planted!
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: morticaixavier on April 06, 2012, 05:36:55 PM
Your location has a lot to do with whether it's worth it to even try to grow barley (no, you can't plant malt...malt is made from barley).  Dan Listermann tried growing malt in Ohio and reportedly harvested about 10% as much as he planted!

I think it's fascinatingthat you can germinate ANY malt. Just goes to show that life will out, if given any opportunity at all.

but yeah, location has a lot to do with it, it also has a lot to do with what varieties you would want to plant. Bohemia likely has a lot colder winter weather than MO so bohemian barley might not do well there. But one of the nice things about barley is that it will grow well in soil that is not suited to many other crops. and for malting purposes you actually want less fertile soil so the protein percentage doesn't get to high.

It is grown most places in the US though. I know VT, western MA, CO (of course) MT, ME, NE (again, of course), IA... well it goes on and on. It'll grow most places.
Title: Re: Undermodified pils malt?
Post by: denny on April 06, 2012, 06:23:43 PM
Your location has a lot to do with whether it's worth it to even try to grow barley (no, you can't plant malt...malt is made from barley).  Dan Listermann tried growing malt in Ohio and reportedly harvested about 10% as much as he planted!

I think it's fascinatingthat you can germinate ANY malt. Just goes to show that life will out, if given any opportunity at all.

I don't think I'd count on malt germinating if you were going to the trouble to try to grow it.  Dan planted barley, not malt.