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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: loopy on February 04, 2010, 12:40:38 AM

Title: tipping?
Post by: loopy on February 04, 2010, 12:40:38 AM
We had a discussion on tipping a few years back over at nb.  I'm kinda curious how peoples views on it may have changed.

Tonight, we ordered pizza from pizza-hut.  It has a 2.50 delivery charge.  2.50 cents on a 10 dollar pizza.  I told him that was his tip, as I was paying for the delivery he didnt actually do anything "extra".  I know that makes me a jackass and that he is getting screwed in the deal.  That does not change the fact that paying me 25% of the total as a fee is nothing more than them trying to get me to subsidize their lack of paying their employees.

I normally tip ok in a restaurant.  up to 20%, sometimes just a bare min or nothing if the service really really sucks. 

I'm wondering what others think of tipping, especially since we had such a heated debate with passionate viewpoints last time. 
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: glitterbug on February 04, 2010, 12:46:37 AM
Tip the pizza delivery person. If you want to make a statement, vote with your wallet (order from somewhere else) and contact pizzahut management and let them know. All you did was screw the lowest guy on the totem pole. You have a bright future in management  ::)
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: weazletoe on February 04, 2010, 01:43:22 AM
I tip delivery guys 4-5$. When we go out, at least 20%, unless the service really sucked. Even then I still leave something.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 01:56:01 AM
I've got two daughters that their pay is based on tips so I've heard it all, what most people don't realize is that waiters/waitresses in actual dine-in "restaurants" get paid only about $2.25 per hour and its LEGAL because its expected of customers to give tips.  With inflation, the proper amount today is 15%.  Now... the pizza delivery guy... he's still making at least minimum wage per hour, the tip which many pizza joints automatically attach to any delivered pizza is split between the store and the driver.  So... depends whether I tip the driver extra or not, if he gets there Quick... yeh... if not then No, but I still only give them about 5% now because I hate it when Any store automatically attaches a tip onto my order.  In fact if I know any "restaurant" that does it... I Will Not go there because their waiters or waitresses can be s***ty and they still get their tip.  Nuff said?  Jmo....

Believe it or not one of my daughters comped a family in Ohio over $75 to make their meal more enjoyable because they had two little kids that were crying and disturbing other customers... the people left my daughter Zilch for a tip.  Now tell my daughter or me that a pizza delivery driver needs something extra when they're At Least getting state minimum wage and they deliver within 5 miles average?  Maybe if they drive like Richard Petty or Dale Earnhardt... then yeh, otherwise their tip was already calculated in and I paid for it already.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 02:15:48 AM
Btw.... when I first saw the title of this thread, I thought somebody might be making a joke about cow-tipping.   :D ;D  Seriously.  If you haven't done it you gotta try it!   ;D 
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 02:39:31 AM
Now tell my daughter or me that a pizza delivery driver needs something extra when they're At Least getting state minimum wage and they deliver within 5 miles average?  Maybe if they drive like Richard Petty or Dale Earnhardt... then yeh, otherwise their tip was already calculated in and I paid for it already.

Pizza drivers are not paid minimum wage. They get "minimum wage" in the same sense that a waiter or any other tipped employee gets minimum wage. If their tips don't come up to $7.25 an hour *for an entire pay period*, the employer is required to make up the difference.

None of the national chains actually pay the driver the entire "delivery charge." The driver is getting somewhere in the $0.50-$1.00 range per delivery, to subsidize the costs of operating a vehicle. It costs of minimum of about 30 cents a mile to operate a compact car. For the majority of deliveries, if the customer doesn't tip, the driver is effectively paying money out of pocket.

The odds of a late delivery being the driver's fault are generally pretty low.

I agree with glitterbug: all you did was punish someone who has no input in the process and hates the "delivery charge" more than you do. On top of which, you made yourself memorable - in a bad way - to someone who is alone with your food.

Disclosure: I deliver pizza for a living.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: tygo on February 04, 2010, 02:44:57 AM
I generally tip 5 - 20% when eating out depending on service.  The 5-10% range is pretty rare and reserved when I've been specifically pissed off about some aspect of the service.

I get pretty annoyed tipping delivery drivers when I get charged a delivery fee, but I recognize that they're not getting it and tip them anyway, my annoyance being more at the restaurant than the driver.  I'm probably at around 10% on deliveries.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 02:55:59 AM
a10t2, if you told me you homebrewed when you delivered my pizza... I'd tip you extra for sure!   ;D  Seriously, I've offered some drivers to stop over for some homebrew, none ever show up though.   ::)  But I will say this too.... at least the store makes it up so you get the state minimum wage for pizza drivers,  my daughters don't have get that even.  I'm serious, I've seen their paychecks because they rented from me at times and some weeks they made a little over $80 and they had to drive to work too.

I'm not doubting you, don't get me wrong.... I think Pizza Hut and all these "corporations" have Screwed you and expect us to pick up the tab.  Dude, you have no idea of the "word" I'd like to say in place of #$&% Pappa John's or Pizza Hut, etc.  I don't go to them anymore... I buy from Mom & Pop type pizza shops when I buy and I usually get treated better too.  Large employers want Loyalty but they treat their employees like s*** and they think the average Joe is too stupid to know the difference.

If you can get away for a few days, come up here and drink some beer with me brother, I'll put you up and you'll eat fresh beef too.   ;)

Edited to add: If you look at my past posts you'll see I said 15% is the proper amount... so I've always given drivers at least 5% on top of the 10% fee I was charged.   ;)  And if you're Really lucky.... you'll eat high speed government beef.   ;D :D
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: mtbrewer on February 04, 2010, 03:09:14 AM
Now tell my daughter or me that a pizza delivery driver needs something extra when they're At Least getting state minimum wage and they deliver within 5 miles average?  Maybe if they drive like Richard Petty or Dale Earnhardt... then yeh, otherwise their tip was already calculated in and I paid for it already.

Pizza drivers are not paid minimum wage. They get "minimum wage" in the same sense that a waiter or any other tipped employee gets minimum wage. If their tips don't come up to $7.25 an hour *for an entire pay period*, the employer is required to make up the difference.

None of the national chains actually pay the driver the entire "delivery charge." The driver is getting somewhere in the $0.50-$1.00 range per delivery, to subsidize the costs of operating a vehicle. It costs of minimum of about 30 cents a mile to operate a compact car. For the majority of deliveries, if the customer doesn't tip, the driver is effectively paying money out of pocket.

The odds of a late delivery being the driver's fault are generally pretty low.

I agree with glitterbug: all you did was punish someone who has no input in the process and hates the "delivery charge" more than you do. On top of which, you made yourself memorable - in a bad way - to someone who is alone with your food.

Disclosure: I deliver pizza for a living.
+10,000
My kid delivered pizza for a little over a year, not a chain restaurant. The store owner started a delivery fee of 2.50, guess where that went, yup his pocket. A 5 mile trip is actually 10 miles for the driver, the miles add up quick. Think about it you start your car 10-15 times a day what happens? Yes, you burn through starters my boys car it was a $200 part. Lucky for him, i know how to work on cars, so he only had to buy parts. When his clutch went out, that would have $500 parts and labor, instead of $150. You have to take that kind of stuff into consideration. Not to mention what the kid could do to your pizza, next time you get him to deliver. I take very good care of the people handling my food. Basically, if you can't afford a tip cook your own damn food.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: capozzoli on February 04, 2010, 03:15:07 AM
What did the leper say to the prostitute when he was through?

Hey baby, keep the tip.  ;)
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 03:16:52 AM
Agreed that if you Won't tip.... cook your own damn food for a while.   ;)  If you can't tip... thats another story, my kids grew up knowing what that was like and thats why my daughters comp people sometimes, so they can tip or if they can't at least they know somebody cared and paid attention.

If I delivered pizza, I'd drive the oldest, junkiest piece of s*** I could find just to piss the owner off.   :D :D ;D
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 03:17:33 AM
What did the leper say to the prostitute when he was through?

Hey baby, keep the tip.  ;)

You left a tip!   ;D  Ooops... backwards.   :o  ;D
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 03:25:48 AM
But I will say this too.... at least the store makes it up so you get the state minimum wage for pizza drivers,  my daughters don't have get that even.

They should, or their employer is breaking the law. If they make $2.25 an hour, and their tips don't average out to $5.00/hr, the restaurant has to make up the difference. http://www.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm (http://www.dol.gov/elaws/faq/esa/flsa/002.htm)

I get offered beer every once in a while. Of course, it's always BMC. You better believe if someone offered me a homebrew I'd be all over it.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 03:28:55 AM
I'm gonna check the link you gave, my daughters never got it and I'll send it to them.  Is that the law in every state? 
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 03:34:07 AM
That's the federal law. States can set their own minimum wage laws, but they have to be as much or more than the feds.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 03:48:33 AM


Then pay them enough so they don't have to rely on tips.




Thats a Big Plus One There!!  Tips shouldn't be in the equation when it comes to payscale!!  If an Employer "can't" afford to pay their employees a decent wage... then they need to close their doors instead of relying on the public to pick up the businesses shortcomings.  We aren't talking about medevial times here.... or Are We?


a10t2... either my daughters bulls***ted me or they have been getting screwed again by their employer, trust me I Will Find Out.  Now I'm Pissed after reading the link you gave us!   >:(
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: tygo on February 04, 2010, 03:54:37 AM

Do you go to a restaurant for the service? No, you go for the food.


Service is an important part of the dining experience.  Yes, the food is the most important part but the quality of the service can make or break the experience.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 04:03:36 AM
Quote
Service is an important part of the dining experience.  Yes, the food is the most important part but the quality of the service can make or break the experience.

That still has jack squat to do with what a person makes for a wage.  If that were the case employers would pay based on how well a person actually does their job rather than how well they get along with management.  If you're working in any field with me, I don't give two s***s about how well you can kiss my ass.... you better put out or your ass is gone and somebody else will take your place.  Too much bulls*** politics in the workplace today... thats what has screwed it all up.  jmo.... I agree with Brewboy on this subject... too much "politics" is "accepted in the workplace".
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 04:06:30 AM
If I was a pizza shop owner and the driver pissed everybody off but did a damn good job... I wouldn't give two s***s about replacing that person, I'd keep them, and I'd "pay them what they were WORTH."  Lumping everybody into a catagory is pure bulls*** "politics".... and America has swallowed it whole.  jmo...
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 04:13:47 AM
Point in case... CEO's making hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars pay.... and most don't actually DO anything except "delegate"?  Screw that, I know how I'd cut my bottom line.... out goes the CEO and I'd hire some more people that actually Worked to turn me a dollar!!   

Holy smokes have people's brains fallen out being so open minded?! 
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: tygo on February 04, 2010, 04:21:24 AM
So we should eliminate incentive pay in all forms entirely?  You should show up for the job you were hired for, and no matter how well or how poorly you do it you should be paid the agreed upon wage?

Edit - And in the interests of "This is a home brewing forum" I'll bow out of this discussion.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: beerocd on February 04, 2010, 05:04:55 AM

Do you go to a restaurant for the service? No, you go for the food.


Service is an important part of the dining experience.  Yes, the food is the most important part but the quality of the service can make or break the experience.

It's a package you're buying. That's why you pay 400% markup on beer, 600% markup on wine, and 1000% markup on steaks. The food should be right, served quickly, with a smile, and everything in the place should be clean. It's not that much to ask. Tips for the pizza guy are a buck plus the silver - (and the delivery charge). Waitstaff usually get the 15 to 20 range but have been as low as pennies(canceled order and walked out they sucked so bad) and as high as 100% (drinks and apps).

Who have you seen get tips and wonder WTF - why are they getting tipped? Like the maids in the hotels kinda bugs me...
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: Kaiser on February 04, 2010, 05:13:01 AM
Coming from a country where tipping is not as customary (we may round up to the next Euro or a bit more when in a restaurant) I had to get used to the tipping culture in the US. I still don't like going to full service gas stations b/c I generally don't have cash on me and b/c I don't know if I'm supposed to tip or if it is included in the higher price for gas.

Kai
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: rabid_dingo on February 04, 2010, 06:27:10 AM
Coming from a country where tipping is not as customary...

While visiting my parents in Germany, they had to be schooled in the reverse. Because they were used to leaving a tip, and they tip 15-25% depending on service, there were times where it did have the intended effect. Where they were quickly recognized at the restaurant and served really well in subsequent visits. TIP...To Insure Promptness.

As far as the Fed and State min...I happened to see one of the federal posters stating what you should be making an hour. It showed that the federal minimum wage for tipped employees was over 4...but I did not read the whole poster. Just noticed the ammount...
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: majorvices on February 04, 2010, 12:41:46 PM

Tonight, we ordered pizza from pizza-hut.

Hmmmmm .... I think here is your real problem.  ;)

For you folks who don't tip you waiter/delivery person .... here's a tip for you: Think twice before ordering from them again - remember, they bring you your food, and you better believe they remember you. They have "handled it first". As an ex-restaurant worker, I can attest I have seen things done to people's food that you would not want done to your food. Trust me on that!  If you think I'm exaggerating, think again. If you think it won't happen to you ... well ... what you don't know won't hurt you .... usually.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: wzl46 on February 04, 2010, 01:54:38 PM
Quote
Service is an important part of the dining experience.  Yes, the food is the most important part but the quality of the service can make or break the experience.

Good service should be expected as it is in any other non-tipping business. It shouldn't be any different in the food industry. I personally wish they'd up the prices and eliminate tipping all together. 

Eliminate tipping, and eliminate the wait staff's motivation to provide you with timely service.  My wife and I tip well, and when we go to our favorite restaurants, our regular waitresses have full beers on the table before we even have to order them most of the time, and our food orders are prompt and out of the kitchen, even on extremely busy nights.  We are very friendly with our servers, but it definitely isn't our personalities that gets us consistently great service.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 03:05:59 PM
This thing is still going?   :D  Okay I think everybody is still missing something, if employers actually paid their employees a decent wage tipping would never have existed in todays world.  To Insure Promptness... that "was" what a tip was for.  Today tipping is are part of an employees pre-calculated wage... see the difference?   Nobody is saying people don't deserve, but employers "count on" our generosity towards their employees and Now the employers are taking up to half the tip for themselves!  Its the mentality of it and people just follow along, why not just keep a jar of vaseline handy, drop your shorts and bend over as soon as you walk into any business from now on...

Putting something in someone's food?  Mightn't that be considered a form of terrorism?   I think it would show how impaired and disgusting a person actually is if not criminal doing something to food, I suppose a person found doing that might even have put their own life in danger, depending on who they did it to?   Its terrible that people even think it happens so it too must be acceptable in todays society also?
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: glitterbug on February 04, 2010, 03:17:16 PM
Putting something in someone's food?  Mightn't that be considered a form of terrorism?

You should turn off the TV for a little while, the media has warped your brain  ;)
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: bluesman on February 04, 2010, 03:33:26 PM
Quality service = a nice tip
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: majorvices on February 04, 2010, 04:01:47 PM
Quote
Service is an important part of the dining experience.  Yes, the food is the most important part but the quality of the service can make or break the experience.

Good service should be expected as it is in any other non-tipping business. It shouldn't be any different in the food industry. I personally wish they'd up the prices and eliminate tipping all together. 

Eliminate tipping, and eliminate the wait staff's motivation to provide you with timely service.  My wife and I tip well, and when we go to our favorite restaurants, our regular waitresses have full beers on the table before we even have to order them most of the time, and our food orders are prompt and out of the kitchen, even on extremely busy nights.  We are very friendly with our servers, but it definitely isn't our personalities that gets us consistently great service.

Definitely true. I like tipping my wait staff. I'm not so much into tipping the hotel staff or the valet - I do anyway, but I'm always confused how to handle it - especially the valet.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 04:06:59 PM
You go to a McDonalds, a single person usually takes your order, takes your money and fill the sacks with the items you ordered. At rush times they're running around at top speed. Do you tip them? I would guess that's a no for most of us.

Now imagine that the same person puts your food in his car and drives it to your house. And after all that, unless you tip him, he isn't making minimum wage.

I guess maybe some people are under the impression that delivery drivers sit around and eat pizza until an order is ready, then drive somewhere, then come back and sit around some more. Unless they're extraordinarily busy, most pizza places will operate with a manager, a dedicated pizza maker, occasionally one other "insider", and anywhere from 1-10 drivers. When you order pizza, there's a 95% chance that a driver took the order, prepped the ingredients, boxed/bagged the order, and did the dishes.

If you're making the case that who is paid minimum wage and who isn't is arbitrary, I'm right there with you. If you're using that as an excuse not to tip, you're just cheap.

Back off the soapbox...
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 04:16:20 PM
Okay, so FedEx drivers, UPS drivers, the mail person, truckers, etc... I'm sure they would appreciate getting tipped too for delivering in a timely manner as well.   ;)  If you contract to have a home built, tip the construction workers well and I'm sure your home will be built "on-time" too.   ;D  :D :D  

Hell, maybe we should all work for tips or consignment?  I bet employers would love that eh?  I wouldn't be suprised to see that happen with our economy the way it is.   ::)

Why don't pizza shops just buy a damn delivery vehicle for their drivers and pay them a decent wage upfront... I'm sure it would be a tax deduction.  In my opinion... its similar to a bait and switch tactic, advertise one price then tack on a "fee".  The advertised price "looks" good or competitive, until the fee is added and then you see the real price the store is charging.  What about people that can't afford the extra tip to the driver?  Should they be denied or have their food spit on the next time they order?    :o :D
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 04:42:04 PM
What about people that can't afford the extra tip to the driver?  Should they be denied or have their food spit on the next time they order?

That excuse carries no weight with me. Eating out, including delivery, is incredibly expensive. If you're on a budget so tight that a couple dollars make a substantial difference, you should be cooking your own food.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 04:45:53 PM
I have to add one more thing, I do agree with tipping waiters, pizza drivers, etc.  With the way the current wage system is, they need it in most cases.  Earlier I gave an example where my daughter comp'd a family, which is not unusual where she works and it is at the waiters disgretion... but what I didn't include with that was that the restaurant owner/manager empowered her to do that because it is actually their money that is on the line.  So I don't want anybody thinking all food service management are terrible because its not true.

On the other hand... I see corporate pizza shops more along the line of deceitful and abusing the laws to achieve their own personal gain at the expense of others.  They have no right to any portion of tips.  By automatically attaching a tip to the bill they have taken away something from the customer.... grace.  Now they treat customers like their employees, "demanding".   I don't know about the rest of you, but I like to have the final say whether I tip and how much.  I ate at a great restaurant in Houston quite often, blackeye'd pea if I remember the name right, and I didn't mind the tip being added on, then one day I got this really grouchy and very slow waiter... I had no say in the tip... it pissed me off A Lot because the girl knew she was getting her tip regardless of how she treated us.  The food was great there, I loved it... but that waitress didn't deserve a tip, she deserved to be fired.  

a10t2... do you realize what you just said?  Some people are just getting by and ordering a pizza once a month might be their idea of eatting a prepared meal such as a restaurant.  Just saying.... 
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 04:55:44 PM
Wow. I don't think I've ever had anything I've written so thoroughly misunderstood.

If you had bothered to read my earlier posts, you'd find that I do tip. However, I would prefer that they be paid a decent wage for a days work. Yes, they sit around between runs.

In colloquial English, "you" can be used as an indefinite pronoun. In the future I'll use "one" for clarity.

Also, the entire point of my little rant was that drivers are *extremely* busy, all the time, and that very little of the job is the actual driving.

Why is it "okay" for them to provide poor service, if they don't think they'll get a good tip?

I provide non-tipping customers with poor service whenever possible for the simple reason that I LOSE MONEY delivering to them. If there's something I can do that may cause them not to order again, it's in my own interest to do it. Frankly, I don't care if anyone else thinks that's "okay" or not. This isn't a hobby; it's my job. I do it for the money.

I'll bet you take breaks quite often to post here. Maybe you should be tipped for only the time you work.

Tell you what. If you ever see me post between 5 PM and midnight, Thursday through Sunday, I will give you unlimited license to berate me about not doing my job. It's 10:45 on a Thursday morning - since you're posting, may I assume you also work nights?

Better get yourself a soapbox.

I think you may need to look up what that expression means. I was on a soapbox. Then I got off of it. Now I'm on a different soapbox: the one I use to defend myself against ad hominem attacks on the Internet, apparently.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 04:59:36 PM
So please explain how delivery or waiting tables is any different than other job?

The only difference is that a driver or waiter doesn't make minimum wage. As I've said, I think it's a stupid and arbitrary system, but it is what it is, and if you're going to support it by ordering the food, you should be tipping.

A job is a job and you should be compensated for your work, by your employer, and not expect the customers to pay twice. Personally, I would never want to be paid by tips. I would feel cheap.

I certainly agree with you there. I find it incredibly demeaning.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 05:03:30 PM
a10t2... do you realize what you just said?  Some people are just getting by and ordering a pizza once a month might be their idea of eatting a prepared meal such as a restaurant.  Just saying.... 

I sympathize with those people (hell, I *am* one of those people). Would you make the same argument if they went to your daughter's restaurant once a month and didn't tip, though? If so, that's fine - I disagree, but you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 05:05:03 PM
I think it all comes down to one thing at least as far as pizza delivery drivers, they used to get tipped very well before tips were imposed into the bill.  I worked technical support at a food equipment manufacturing company and my boss moonlighted as a driver for Pizza Hut because he often made more than $300 a week in tips alone... not anymore.

I do seriously feel for the drivers such as yourself a10t2.  But let me say this with your words, is it right to punish the customer for something management did?
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 05:06:11 PM
I think you're misunderstanding me here. I DO tip, and quite generously, because I am aware of the way wait staff is compensated. I just think the concept of having to make tips to earn a decent wage is ridiculous and should be changed.

I didn't misunderstand at all, and in fact I agree with you. I quoted your post initially simply because it provided an example of what my job actually *is* - which is quite different from what most people think it is, in my experience.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 05:11:19 PM
I was going to say some of the corporate chain pizza joints will probably go out of business before long but then I remembered who owns them.   ::)   :D :D
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: majorvices on February 04, 2010, 05:16:45 PM
Gotcha.

I'm just glad to have an interesting discussion here without it being blocked or banned.  :)

Ohhh don't tempt me.  ;)
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 05:18:33 PM
But let me say this with your words, is it right to punish the customer for something management did?

Well, I don't see it as punishment. I'm not messing with anyone's food, and I'm always polite and professional. But if I have two deliveries, and I know one of them won't tip (perversely, the people who don't tip are generally the ones who order most frequently) I deliver the other order first, regardless of how old the two orders are. That's a simple cost/benefit analysis, IMHO.

I can't really speak to what tips were like before the companies starting imposing "delivery fees", because I've only been doing this since 2007. But everyone I know in the industry (I've worked in six different stores, for three different companies) is honest with customers about how much of the delivery charge "goes to" the driver. (Drivers were getting a per-delivery supplement before the delivery charges, so it's kind of misleading even to say they "get" some of that money - it's 100% profit for the store.) I think it's exceedingly rare for a tipping customer to have become a non-tipping customer because of the system, though. Some people tip, and some don't - I really believe it's as simple as that.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 05:21:45 PM
I was going to say some of the corporate chain pizza joints will probably go out of business before long but then I remembered who owns them.   ::)   :D :D

The whole industry is doomed in the long run. It's a ludicrous waste of resources - a 2000+ pound vehicle moving three pounds of food around. Eventually gas will cost enough that consumers won't be willing to pay for it.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 05:26:59 PM
When they first imposed the "delivery fee", I wouldn't tip the driver the first time because I felt as I said, like I was no longer "allowed to be gracious."  But I did tip again after that and I still do, if, I have it delivered.  Where I live now is too far out so delivery is out of the question, but if they did I would tip very well considering I'm 6+ miles from the store.   ;D  8)
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: beerocd on February 04, 2010, 05:46:27 PM
So, I go to pick up some pizza and the bill is like 13.XX and I give the guy 4 singles and a 20 dollar bill. I should have tipped him for entertainment value. "uh, er, uh hmmm uh you gave me too much!" :D No, pizza is not cheap around here.... coupon. And 90+ percent of the time we make our own.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: riverrat on February 04, 2010, 05:53:19 PM
If you don't want to pay the "delivery" fee or tip the driver, feel free to go pick up the pizza yourself.  What is your time and mileage worth to you is what you should be compensating the driver/company for.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: beerocd on February 04, 2010, 06:03:25 PM
If you don't want to pay the "delivery" fee or tip the driver, feel free to go pick up the pizza yourself.  What is your time and mileage worth to you is what you should be compensating the driver/company for.

You really want to be paid a neurosurgeon's hourly rate because he didn't want to pick up?
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 06:30:58 PM
The one thing that guarantees a small tip from me is if I give a larger bill than is needed to cover the tab and I'm asked if I want change.

That's a tough situation for a driver to be in. If I give you all your change, I risk creating the impression that I don't *want* a tip. If I ask, I feel borderline rude. Plus the logistical difficulty of making change without knowing how much the customer wants to tip - if the change is 12 dollars, do I give two fives and two ones, precluding the possibility of a tip larger than two dollars? Or a five and seven ones, risking not being able to make change for my next delivery?

I usually go for something like, "How much did you need back?" And try to put a little english on the word "need". ;)
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: nicneufeld on February 04, 2010, 06:50:38 PM
I tip generously as a rule.  Generally that means 20%, maybe just under 20%.  Bad service, I do the "minimum" 15%.  I have never not left a tip at a restaurant.

That said, I also have started avoiding giving my business to places where tipping is the norm, precisely because of the general attitudes surrounding tipping in America, as heavily exemplified in this thread.  A tip isn't really a tip if it is expected, and so yes, I do cook my own food (see the cooking subforums :D ) and I eat out infrequently, and I get in my car and pick up my own pizzas.

I'm not fond of the idea that if I don't make a "voluntary" donation in the form of a tip I am a bad person or will be scorned by the person expecting the tip.  And so, they don't get my business.  Granted, since I don't skimp on tips I am unlikely to invite the scorn of the tippee, but the false sense of it being voluntary is something I do not like and generally don't support with my dinero.

And yes, I have worked as a waiter and made the two something an hour myself.  At the same place I worked as a dishwasher, and in both cases, I made minimum wage (or more as was often the case as a waiter).
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 04, 2010, 06:55:51 PM
Hey nicneufeld, question for you... did you split your tip as a waiter with the cook, dishwasher, etc?  I know thats how they do it where one of my daughters work.  The other daughter is a bartender and she splits her tips with the bouncers.  

I suspect most pizza delivery drivers don't or didn't split their tips or undereported how much their tips were... and thats how the "delivery fee" came about.  It still doesn't account for the store keeping a portion of the tips for themselves though. 
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: capozzoli on February 04, 2010, 07:13:04 PM
I was a bartender for eight years. My philosophy was that I would treat every customer with the same respect and service regardless of the tip. But if you didn't tip me you have to do without my singular wit and remarkably accurate insight.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: beerocd on February 04, 2010, 08:20:16 PM
I was a bartender for eight years. My philosophy was that I would treat every customer with the same respect and service regardless of the tip. But if you didn't tip me you have to do without my singular wit and remarkably accurate insight.

Aren't you incentivising the wrong way? :D :D  :P
BTW:How freakin' old ARE you? Seems you've done enough to be 65.:D
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 04, 2010, 08:32:24 PM
Are you that lazy that you can't just count back some change?

It seems a little counterintuitive to characterize someone who brings food to your door as lazy, but when possible, yes, I'm pretty lazy. Most people are, which is why making tipping easier than not tipping is a win for me almost every time. Like I said, this isn't a hobby, it's my job. If I can get one extra tip a night, I just got a 5% raise. Using "need" instead of "want", parking with the dented fender facing the door, making customers fill out the tip line on the receipt, washing my uniform twice a week, stamping my feet to get the snow off, giving coupons to tippers, pretending to be a Colts fan; think of them what you will, but these things put money in my pocket.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: bluesman on February 04, 2010, 08:47:18 PM
I like tipping pints.  ;D
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: capozzoli on February 04, 2010, 08:47:40 PM
I was a bartender for eight years. My philosophy was that I would treat every customer with the same respect and service regardless of the tip. But if you didn't tip me you have to do without my singular wit and remarkably accurate insight.

Aren't you incentivising the wrong way? :D :D  :P
BTW:How freakin' old ARE you? Seems you've done enough to be 65.:D

Not that old, but have had a few different careers. When I was a bartender by night, I was working as a welder in the day. Working in the film and television industry actually. Building parts for sets and special effects.

Before that I was working as a line cook and eventually a chef before I burnt out on the restaurant biz. Being a bartender a few nights was still tolerable and great extra cash. GREAT! Lots of girls too. Man, those were the days, I dont think I ever slept more than a few hours a night back then.  ::)
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: redbeerman on February 05, 2010, 12:26:24 PM
I like tipping pints.  ;D

+1
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: novabrew on February 05, 2010, 10:13:14 PM
Don't screw the workers by not tipping to protest a corporations policies.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 05, 2010, 11:22:31 PM
Hasn't this thread had about everything said that can be said about it already?  Tipping, it Is the right thing to do although its the system that is inevitably corrupt by its very nature.  If employers actually paid a fair wage to start with, tipping, in and of itself would not come into question but employers "work the system" as much as those who will not look for work for a living.  

If you can't afford to pay someone to work for you, then do everything yourself without asking our government to make and pass special rules and laws to prop your sorry ass up.  If you can't afford to tip your waiter, cook at home as much as you can.  That seems pretty fair to me... jmo.   ;)
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: uthristy on February 06, 2010, 12:57:13 PM

When does it stop?. A job is a job and you should be compensated for your work, by your employer, and not expect the customers to pay twice.

 :P  :D
wav1 (http://www.entertonement.com/clips/mlxqtztchr--I-don't-tip-because-society-says-I-have-toReservoir-Dogs-Steve-Buscemi-Mr-Pink-)


wav2 (http://www.entertonement.com/clips/ygyczvpwrr--Reservoir-Dogs-Lawrence-Tierney-Joe-Cabot-Nevermind-what-you-would-normally-do-just-cough-in-your-godamned-buck-like-everybody-else)

Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 06, 2010, 06:08:56 PM
Oh thank god... I was NOT going to be the first one to quote Mr. Pink. :D
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: beerocd on February 08, 2010, 05:18:54 PM
Oh thank god... I was NOT going to be the first one to quote Mr. Pink. :D

So you make a bunch last night? At least in the first half, right?
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: a10t2 on February 08, 2010, 06:25:34 PM
Nope, we were completely dead. I guess everyone took care of the food for their parties ahead of time. I didn't mind, really - we got 8 inches of snow Friday, so this weekend was crazy. Friday to Sunday I worked 31 hours. :o

I actually managed not to find out about the game until I could get home to watch it. Touch and go there for a while, but I was loving the second half. ;)
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: loopy on February 09, 2010, 10:24:17 PM
good replies, but it seems to me that the fundamental part of what I was getting at was never mentioned. 
I feel like the fee + expected tip is tipping twice. 

Like, in a hotel, when you order room service and they have a 10 or 15% delivery charge.  Sometimes they tell you honesty the tip is included sometimes they just hover waiting for the second.

Or in restraruants, when the tip is included in the bill.  I have seen this done, and it almost always is delivered by bringing the bill in a non-itemized way.  When you ask to see the bill they get rude because they did not want you to see the 15% gratuity and are counting on you to tip them again.

I see the pizza charge as the same thing.  It kinda made sense back in 2008 when they brought it out, gas was 4bucks a gallon, but now gas is back at 2.30, and the jacked up fee is still there.  I dont want to tip twice, and I damn sure dont want to be forced to tip at all and then expected to feel generous after the fact.   

I do not tip at macdonalds, nor do I tip at chinese buffet restraraunts - ie places you are expected to carry your own tray, to pick up your food at the counter and bus your own trash.  I also do not tip at the places that have the crappy "tip" jar on the counter ~coffee places, smaller mom+pop restraraunts and stores, ie if I do the work, I aint giving you a tip just because you ran the register and took my money.  I dont think any of those are quite the same as the case from the original post tho. 

Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: glitterbug on February 09, 2010, 10:36:08 PM
good replies, but it seems to me that the fundamental part of what I was getting at was never mentioned. 
I feel like the fee + expected tip is tipping twice. 

It was mentioned 3 times on the first page  ::)
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: theDarkSide on February 10, 2010, 01:06:23 PM
Tipping is not a city in China!
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dimik on February 10, 2010, 05:02:37 PM
I leave tips when going out. I never ever leave tips when getting some pizza, because cutting a piece of pizza does not involve any labor. And I never order food to be delivered.

Now, working in a jewish catering for the last 5 years, I saw a grand total of $30 in tips, and all of it was in a single wedding (bride's father was happy). That's right. No tips, EVER. After hundreds of weddings...
On another occasion, we went to Niagara Falls for their passover and worked like slaves for 10 days straight. Since we had the same tables for the entire duration, we all got to know our clients and found out, that the caterer was charging a lot from each person as a charge for waiter services. I'll let you guess if we saw more than 10% of that money... And that's why I never ever did those jobs again.
The only times one does get tipped in on private parties and only if the caterer is not a completely greedy bastard, which is rare, I know only two and they're brothers, and literally shakes the client for a tip for the guys.

So... LEAVE SOME TIPS FOR THE HARD WORKING PEOPLE THAT FEED YOU!!!

Lol, seriously, it's very pleasant :)
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 10, 2010, 11:58:45 PM
I leave tips when going out. I never ever leave tips when getting some pizza, because cutting a piece of pizza does not involve any labor. And I never order food to be delivered.

Now, working in a jewish catering for the last 5 years, I saw a grand total of $30 in tips, and all of it was in a single wedding (bride's father was happy). That's right. No tips, EVER. After hundreds of weddings...
On another occasion, we went to Niagara Falls for their passover and worked like slaves for 10 days straight. Since we had the same tables for the entire duration, we all got to know our clients and found out, that the caterer was charging a lot from each person as a charge for waiter services. I'll let you guess if we saw more than 10% of that money... And that's why I never ever did those jobs again.
The only times one does get tipped in on private parties and only if the caterer is not a completely greedy bastard, which is rare, I know only two and they're brothers, and literally shakes the client for a tip for the guys.

So... LEAVE SOME TIPS FOR THE HARD WORKING PEOPLE THAT FEED YOU!!!

Lol, seriously, it's very pleasant :)


I pretty much agree with that if all employers are equal, but they aren't... some TAKE every Advantage Offered to them and then expect everyone else to believe they don't make any money.  If they aren't making money, get out of the business... thats what a smart investor would do wouldn't they?   ;)

 Unless of course there is someone or A Body that protects you, insuring that you can 't possibly fail.  Sounds like some banks eh?   ::)  Really, its almost "mafia like".  Look what our government has become... they assumed the role of... think about it, same game, different name.  Speak out and you're on a list.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 11, 2010, 03:43:58 PM
I just looked at my last post, I don't know what I was on about.... must have zoned when I was typing it?   ??? :D  Sorry for the rant I guess.    :-[

Anyway, I agree with dimik, if someone provides you with a good product or service... do your business with them and if you feel like tipping them, do it... it can't hurt unless you're unable to afford it.  But it shouldn't be expected as part of the transaction in order to fulfill the business employee's hourly wage.  I don't tip salespeople, they draw an agreed upon "commision" from the business they represent.  Maybe thats the way some of these places should go, but then they would have to advertise their prices without any hidden fees.  This thread is interesting because it was a topic on the morning news the other day... the hidden charges that businesses charge, including restocking fees etc.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: central_wa_brewing on February 13, 2010, 09:02:25 AM
T- to
I- insure
P- proper
S- service
I like to start out with a $5 tip on first order.  Guess what, your server/bartender is going to take good care of you( I know because I bartended to pay my way through college).  If he/she is not taking care of you, I'm going to sit there and buy more drinks and take up a bar stool or two and get my money out of it and then never go back with that server on shift.  If you don't tip off the get-go, you're chancing it.  Bartenders aren't there for stuff-n-giggles. 
I believe everyone should work in the food service industry just once to learn courtesy. 
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: euge on February 18, 2010, 08:22:24 AM
I waited tables, was a bartender and did the pizza thing for years and years and years. Made decent cash.

Really no-one can do these jobs without the tips. There's a hierarchy in the industry- some get a better hourly wage and make more money even- but quick cash burns brightly. Anyway, delivery guys, waiters and bartenders will do some serious bank but the all the work runs at a high stress level and pace all the time. For everybody. And the dimwitted ones end up at the Kettle. Cars wear out quickly under the pizza sign.

I worked my way through college and beyond on tips. And a few peak hours a week can bring in plenty of fast cash.

It's ingrained in American culture. ::) Over-tipping occurs much more frequently than no tip at all in my experience.

The movie "Waiting" is disturbingly accurate. :o
 
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dimik on February 18, 2010, 11:46:57 AM
LOL!
Yeah, "Waiting" is indeed disturbingly accurate.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: denny on February 18, 2010, 05:13:47 PM
T- to
I- insure
P- proper
S- service

Well, not really...

Claim:   The word "tip" comes from an acronym for "To Insure Promptness" or "To Insure Performance."

Status:   False

http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/tip.asp
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: bluesman on February 18, 2010, 05:22:40 PM
I'm certainly getting my mileage out of this thread.  :D
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: beersk on February 18, 2010, 07:24:17 PM
Nope, this here's all you need to know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38

I usually tip 15% minimum for okay service and around 20% for good service.  Sometimes if I get really bad service I leave a poor tip.  But for a $10 pizza and a $2.50 delivery charge, I ain't throwing anything extra in.  That $2.50 charge is ENOUGH if not too much, especially for that mediocre cardboard pizza.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: euge on February 18, 2010, 07:57:42 PM
From my experiences the Driver sees exactly zero of that $2.50. It goes straight to the "store" and is extra profit. Delivery Driver typically gets paid $0.50-1.50 per delivery to compensate for gas. Depending on size of delivery area, actual mileage, fuel economy and the state of fuel prices most of that gets eaten up just by working. When Katrina hit I was still working on weekends and going to school. Gas shot up from $1.80 to $3.80 overnight and management refused to adjust (even temporarily) to the situation, but instituted a $2.50 delivery charge instead. Of which we got no part I can assure you and our tips suffered. I could no longer afford to work and had to quit.

My preferences now are for frozen pizza or those Sam's/Costco deli jobs. One quarter to half the price of delivered and often quicker to the table. I keep two in the deep-freeze at all times.

And nothing extra to pay... ;)

I don't like to reward poor service either. But, everyone should at least experience these types of jobs to get a perspective. Ever seen "Scared Straight"? If anyone ever needed convincing to get a good education they should try waiting tables for a while.

It is what it is.
Title: Re: tipping?
Post by: dean on February 18, 2010, 08:59:39 PM
Yeh, since this thread started, we've decided we're not going order pizza delivered even if the store were to expand their delivery range.  Its just not worth it anymore, and the corporate pizza joints have even lowered the price on their pizzas now.  It doesn't matter anymore... I think people feel like they've been "probed" so to speak.  The stores in everyone's mind should never have put their little scheme into practice.  I really expect to see less corporate owned pizza shops in the not to far future.

Well... I'm heading out for a sixer of SN BigFoot  ;D  and picking up a pizza too maybe.    ;)