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General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: kraftwerk on May 03, 2012, 01:44:45 AM

Title: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: kraftwerk on May 03, 2012, 01:44:45 AM
Ok, I had my head in my ass today. So here's the rundown, I got my Dunkelweizen recipe together before going to the LBS. Although they do have a huge selection, they didn't have everything I need. Here's the original grain bill:

Dunkelweizen, 5.5 gal

5.5# Munich II (20 SRM)
3.5# Dark Wheat Malt (9 SRM)
2.0# Wheat Malt (2SRM)
0.5# Carafa I (337 SRM)

So according to BeerSmith, this looks pretty solid. Well, I couldn't track down any 9 SRM Dark Wheat Malt so turning to the next closest thing, I found Blackprinz which is a whopping 500 SRM! Stupidly,  replacing 30% of the grain bill with the BLACKEST of the black malts!!! (This is already crushed and mixed up)

What should I do about this? The only thing that comes to mind is increasing the % of all the other malts to effectively lower the ratio of Blackprinz to non. I have a fresh Hefeweizen yeast cake that I'm itching to use. Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Also, feel free to ridicule a little. I realize this is a funny situation.
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: punatic on May 03, 2012, 01:56:37 AM
Ok, I had my head in my ass today.

A fairly common malady - often refered to as anal-cranial inversion.
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: euge on May 03, 2012, 02:21:10 AM
Ok, I had my head in my ass today.

A fairly common malady - often refered to as anal-cranial inversion.

A retrograde craniorecto maneuver. Or cranial rectitis...
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: morticaixavier on May 03, 2012, 02:32:45 AM
I think you might have a problem trying to convert that much specialty grain with munich II but I could be wrong. Maybe add a couple pounds pilsner malt, pitch a belgian strain and make a belgian stout? Maybe add some dark candi sugar and pitch an abbey yeast and make a whole new style!
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: a10t2 on May 03, 2012, 02:42:49 AM
I think you might have a problem trying to convert that much specialty grain with munich II but I could be wrong.

That would be my main concern. Most dark Munich malts have just enough diastatic power to convert themselves. With only 2 lb of wheat malt to supply the enzymes, you may not be able to conduct a successful mash.

The other problem is that that's a ton of the Blackprinz. I'd use the mixture as a portion of the grist for at least two 5 gal batches. Three or four would be better.
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: kraftwerk on May 03, 2012, 02:48:21 AM
I'm starting to come to terms with the fact that any direction I go here will still result in a very dark beer. So, that being said, stout would be a logical move. Could probably boost the base with lots o' pils malt.

Any thoughts on adjuncts? I wouldn't mind keeping it simple. Either way, this might turn into a double batch. Then bottle and wait for winter drinkin!

Please fill me in on this diastatic power you speak of.
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: a10t2 on May 03, 2012, 02:51:50 AM
Any thoughts on adjuncts?

Without adding a lot of base malt, you won't have the DP to convert them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diastatic_power#Diastatic_power

Essentially you want need the weighted average of the diastatic potential for the entire grist to be over 35 degrees Lintner. Preferably, over 50.
Title: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: ckpash88 on May 03, 2012, 04:18:03 AM
I say go with it brew with what you have. It may be an interesting experiment. If its bad rebrew it. Be adventurous


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Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: garc_mall on May 03, 2012, 04:36:06 AM
I would throw another 3lb each of pils and wheat malt in, and call it a dunkelweizenbock. Might need a touch more hops to maintain the GU/BU ratio.
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: morticaixavier on May 03, 2012, 04:48:04 AM
I'm starting to come to terms with the fact that any direction I go here will still result in a very dark beer. So, that being said, stout would be a logical move. Could probably boost the base with lots o' pils malt.

Any thoughts on adjuncts? I wouldn't mind keeping it simple. Either way, this might turn into a double batch. Then bottle and wait for winter drinkin!

Please fill me in on this diastatic power you speak of.
diastatic power is the rating of how much enzyme is present in the malt. These enzymes are what convert the starch into sugars. As malt is kilned the enzymes are destroyed, and at a certain level of kilning all the enzymes are gone. With a malt like blackprinz there are no enzymes present at all. with a malt like dark munich there is very little. Enough to convert the amount of starch present in the munich malt but that's about it, in a normal length mash that is, given long enough (we are probably talking many hours here) it would convert but in a normal 1-2 hour mash, I doubt it. by adding a few pounds of pils malt, which has just about the highest diastatic power of all the barley and wheat malts, you can ensure a rapid conversion, well ensure might be a bit strong, but you improve your chances.
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: troybinso on May 03, 2012, 04:48:20 AM
Can you kind of scoop out some of the black malt? Or is it too mixed up? Get as much as you can out maybe and replace it with some more regular white wheat malt or pilsner malt.

Don't make this beer with 30% roasted malt. I really don't think it is going to be worth it.
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: euge on May 03, 2012, 05:08:48 AM
Can you kind of scoop out some of the black malt? Or is it too mixed up? Get as much as you can out maybe and replace it with some more regular white wheat malt or pilsner malt.

Don't make this beer with 30% roasted malt. I really don't think it is going to be worth it.

I would just add some of what you have to a similar grain bill to what you planned. Just figure out the percentage of the black malt you need to have the same effect as the wheat malt and you'll know what to add to reach 9 srm. Won;t be very much.

Then the rest is used up the same way. Or.. Make a stout or kitchen sink beer. Have fun and buy a mill
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: snowtiger87 on May 03, 2012, 09:29:41 AM
I second the idea of a Dunkelweizenbock. Just add more pils and wheat malt (and more bittering hops).

You could call it a "Weizenstout".
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: erockrph on May 03, 2012, 01:36:48 PM
Add about 15 pounds of 2-row and and a crapload of hops to make a 10 gallon batch of Imperial CDA.
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on May 03, 2012, 04:08:28 PM
I second the idea of a Dunkelweizenbock. Just add more pils and wheat malt (and more bittering hops).

You could call it a "Weizenstout".

I like it!

You will need more base malt to convert - make it a big'n!

No matter how much base malt you add - its going to be black as night. Shoot for an imperial (dunkleweizen)Stout to get the Blackprinz percentage down; otherwise it will just cover everything up.

I'm kind of interested to see what this much Blackprinz does to a beer. Keep us updated!
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: kraftwerk on May 04, 2012, 05:23:10 PM
thanks for the suggestions! Looks like I'll cut the existing grain bill in half and boost it with pils and wheat. Might still use the Hefe yeast and make a "schwartzweiss." I'll keep y'all posted. This could be interesting
!
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: erockrph on May 04, 2012, 05:50:14 PM
thanks for the suggestions! Looks like I'll cut the existing grain bill in half and boost it with pils and wheat. Might still use the Hefe yeast and make a "schwartzweiss." I'll keep y'all posted. This could be interesting
!

If you do go for the Hefe, let me recommend WY3638 for yeast. It's got some pretty bold flavor that worked really well in my last dunkelweizen and should hold up pretty well against your grain bill. Plus it has a nice vanilla phenolic that plays nice with the roasted grains.
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: euge on May 04, 2012, 05:58:46 PM
thanks for the suggestions! Looks like I'll cut the existing grain bill in half and boost it with pils and wheat. Might still use the Hefe yeast and make a "schwartzweiss." I'll keep y'all posted. This could be interesting
!

I think it'll be acrid and dominate your brew with the 1.75# of Blackprinz still in there. That is a whole lot of black specialty malt. And you'll need to condition it a long time- maybe 6 months at least.
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: weithman5 on May 04, 2012, 06:04:59 PM
Ok, I had my head in my ass today.

A fairly common malady - often refered to as anal-cranial inversion.

i have a body sized tuning fork. wedge the prongs between shoulders and ass cheeks, reach between your legs and pull.  Note if you are also a wobbly headed oaf or fleshy headed mutant (thank you strange brew) you may need someone to hook the handle to their truck and pull.
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: gandelf on May 06, 2012, 07:06:08 PM
Kraftwerk; so is it cling clang brewery then? That brings back
some memories. I'm going to dig out some vinyl.
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: kraftwerk on May 07, 2012, 01:05:02 AM
Kraftwerk; so is it cling clang brewery then? That brings back
some memories. I'm going to dig out some vinyl.

Yep, I drive the Autobahn to work every day blasting German techno whilst drinking steins of dopplebock. 
Title: Re: Ok, so I gotta situation here...
Post by: kraftwerk on June 16, 2012, 11:51:27 PM
*UPDATE*

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone. I actually learned a lot about brewing with this one! I ended up taking about 1/4 existing grain bill (including the Blackprinz) and cut it with wheat and pale. Used American hops and WY3068. Kegged with 3/4 cup priming sugar. It now resembles a really clean, smooth wheat stout. I dialed up the hops a little higher than I would for a Dunkel (the original planned beer) and it balanced out perfectly. I'm super excited about this one!

Here's the recipe: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12521.0 (http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=12521.0).

Thanks again!