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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: juddz on February 07, 2010, 10:03:36 PM

Title: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: juddz on February 07, 2010, 10:03:36 PM
Hello!

This weekend, I had the pleasure of trying a black IPA at HopCat in Grand Rapids. I've made regular IPAs that have worked out pretty well, and I'm considering doing a darker variation. I think I'd like to end up with something that could be described as either a hoppy porter or significantly darker IPA.

I'm still an extract brewer, but let me know what you think of this idea:
- Crush & steep 6 oz Simpsons chocolate malt, 6 oz Simpsons black malt, and 1 lb Simpsons dark crystal malt for 20 minutes
- Add 5 lb unhopped, amber DME
- Add 6AAU Fuggles hops at start of 60 minute boil
- Add 4 AAU Fuggles hops after 30 minutes
- Add 8 AAU after 55 minutes
- Cool to 70 degrees, then pitch Wyeast Ringwood Ale yeast
- Dry hop - Add 4 AAU Fuggles when transferring beer into the secondary
- Let condition 3-4 weeks, prime, & bottle

Thanks for your ideas!
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: skyler on February 24, 2010, 07:06:00 AM
What you would be  making would more approximate an Imperial Stout or a Barley Wine than a Black IPA. I live in Portland, and drink a lot of Black IPA's... I would just brew your favorite IPA and add 6-8 oz of Sinamar, personally.
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: deepsouth on February 24, 2010, 04:47:10 PM
what is sinamar?
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: Hokerer on February 24, 2010, 05:05:49 PM
what is sinamar?

It's a malt coloring product extracted from Carafa malt by Weyerman...

http://www.weyermann.de/eng/produkte.asp?idkat=26&umenue=yes&idmenue=37&sprache=2 (http://www.weyermann.de/eng/produkte.asp?idkat=26&umenue=yes&idmenue=37&sprache=2)
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: dbeechum on February 24, 2010, 05:16:06 PM
And if you don't have access to Sinamar, you can take crushed chocolate malt (preferably Carafa) and steep it in cold water overnight. The soak ratio is quite intense. You want it to be like a super gritty slurry.

The next day, strain the liquid out. (I use a wire mesh strainer) and voila - you basically have homemade Sinamar.
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: denny on February 24, 2010, 06:08:47 PM
Here's some info on cold steeping...

From George Fix on Cold Steeping

Question to Dr. Fix:

On the Brews & Views discussion board a couple months ago, someone mentioned a talk you gave regarding cold steeping of malts like Munich. I would very much appreciate it if you would elaborate on this technique. How do you do it, what does it do for the brew, what malts are good candidates for this technique.

Dr. Fix:

The talk was in the NCHF at Napa in October. Those folks on the left coast really know how to do a beer festival! The cold steeping procedure was designed to maximize the extraction of desirable melanoidins, and at the same time minimize the extraction of undesirable ones. The former are simple compounds which yield a fine malt taste. The undesirable ones come from more complicated structures. Polymers with sulfur compounds tend to have malt/vegetable tones. Others yield cloying tones, which to my palate have an under fermented character. The highest level melanoidins can even have burnt characteristics. The cold steeping procedure was developed by Mary Ann Gruber of Briess. My version goes as follows.

    * (i) One gallon of water per 3-4 lbs. of grains to be steeped is brought to a boil and held there for 5 mins.
    * (ii) The water is cooled down to ambient, and the cracked grains are added.
    * (iii) This mixture is left for 12-16 hrs. at ambient temperatures, and then added to the brew kettle for the last 15-20 mins. of the boil.

Mary Ann has had good results by adding the steeped grains directly to the fermenter without boiling, however I have not tried that variation of the procedure.

The upside of cold steeping is that it works. The downside is that it is very inefficient both with respect to extract and color. In my setup I am using 2-3 times the malt that would normally be used. As a consequence I have been using it for "adjunct malts" such as black and crystal. I also am very happy with the use of Munich malts with this process when they are used as secondary malts.
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: juddz on February 25, 2010, 10:47:26 AM
Thanks for the suggestions! Another thing I'm a little on the fence about is my choice of yeast. Ringwood might be interesting; then again, there might be too much butterscotch flavor in the finished beer...
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: dbeechum on February 25, 2010, 05:24:45 PM
I almost universal loath Ringwood because without an experienced brewers hand it produces butter bombs. Then again I'm very sensitive to diacetyl
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: deepsouth on February 25, 2010, 05:33:50 PM
maybe/probably it's just dumb luck, but i've had good luck with ringwood ale in ipa's.  even won a contest and got third best of show with a ringwood ale fermented ipa.

Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: skyler on February 25, 2010, 10:23:07 PM
If I made a Black IPA (and I plan to sometime in the next few months), I wouldn't use a "risky" yeast like Ringwood, but something extremely safe, like 1056, since off flavors could be difficult to attribute to the yeast, the malt bill, the hop bill, the process... when things are "experimental" on too many grounds. If you're looking for an "English" strain, try 1028 or 1275 (or even S-04).
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: johncake on February 26, 2010, 12:56:19 AM
Does sinamar contribute a flavor?  I realize brewing an IPA and turning it black, technically is a "Black IPA", but I tend to think of the Black IPAs as having a roasty touch to them.  There are quite a few of these beers out there now, I've had them but have never brewed one.  Aren't the brewers using some dark malt like chocolate or debittered black to get that roasty note and dark color?
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: babalu87 on February 27, 2010, 05:16:34 AM
Imperial Black Ale

I dont see the point of just using coloring but thats just me.
I like the touch of roast in mine
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: juddz on February 27, 2010, 02:57:00 PM
Okay, so I think I will try the sinamar and a more typical ale yeast when I try to hit the black IPA. I'm planning on brewing two batches in March, despite the hassle of bottling nearly four cases when I finally have the time to do so! Thus, while following the suggestions here in an attempt to nail a style, I might also give the proposed recipe a shot just to see what I come up with. I'm really still learning the finer points of brewing, so a little exploration is probably in order. Besides, a friend of mine has really been encouraging me to give it a try! Recent experimentation has produced good results. I've primed my last two batches with a cup each of DME, and despite concerns that it may not ferment ad well as corn sugar, it did produce sufficient carbonation, and enhanced the maltiness of the beer. Slowly but surely, I'm learning how to brew better beer!
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: k4df4l on February 28, 2010, 08:51:43 PM
I did one recently with 1lb of Carafa II and it came out pitch black, definitely got a bit of mellow roasty flavor but it works pretty nice overall between the hops and the rest of the grain bill.  I used WLP007 and it's a stellar attenuator & flocs like mad.
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: skyler on March 01, 2010, 09:16:06 PM
I've primed my last two batches with a cup each of DME, and despite concerns that it may not ferment ad well as corn sugar, it did produce sufficient carbonation

One piece of added advice that I wish I had been given earlier in my homebrewing experience: when bottling a "big" beer, especially one that is somewhat expensive to make, add a pack of dry ale yeast (Nottingham, US-05, S-04, whatever) a couple days before bottling. This will GREATLY increase your likelihood of having good, reliable carbonation.
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: skyler on March 01, 2010, 09:17:23 PM
Does sinamar contribute a flavor?

Yes, but a mellow one.
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: roguejim on March 08, 2010, 03:22:27 AM
Here's some info on cold steeping...

From George Fix on Cold Steeping

Question to Dr. Fix:

On the Brews & Views discussion board a couple months ago, someone mentioned a talk you gave regarding cold steeping of malts like Munich. I would very much appreciate it if you would elaborate on this technique. How do you do it, what does it do for the brew, what malts are good candidates for this technique.

Dr. Fix:

The talk was in the NCHF at Napa in October. Those folks on the left coast really know how to do a beer festival! The cold steeping procedure was designed to maximize the extraction of desirable melanoidins, and at the same time minimize the extraction of undesirable ones. The former are simple compounds which yield a fine malt taste. The undesirable ones come from more complicated structures. Polymers with sulfur compounds tend to have malt/vegetable tones. Others yield cloying tones, which to my palate have an under fermented character. The highest level melanoidins can even have burnt characteristics. The cold steeping procedure was developed by Mary Ann Gruber of Briess. My version goes as follows.

    * (i) One gallon of water per 3-4 lbs. of grains to be steeped is brought to a boil and held there for 5 mins.
    * (ii) The water is cooled down to ambient, and the cracked grains are added.
    * (iii) This mixture is left for 12-16 hrs. at ambient temperatures, and then added to the brew kettle for the last 15-20 mins. of the boil.

Mary Ann has had good results by adding the steeped grains directly to the fermenter without boiling, however I have not tried that variation of the procedure.

The upside of cold steeping is that it works. The downside is that it is very inefficient both with respect to extract and color. In my setup I am using 2-3 times the malt that would normally be used. As a consequence I have been using it for "adjunct malts" such as black and crystal. I also am very happy with the use of Munich malts with this process when they are used as secondary malts.

Do you remember when I contacted Mary Ann via email, and posted her remarks on the HBD forum?  I thought perhaps you filed it away somewhere!
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: denny on March 08, 2010, 04:08:52 PM
Ya know, I might have....I'll see what I can dig up.
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: skyler on March 17, 2010, 02:01:20 AM
As usual, I am playing around with ideas for the beers I am going to brew after I brew the two I have ready to brew before I fly to the bay area for an abbreviated spring break next Tuesday.Those beers are a witbier and a Red Seal-inspired APA (which I had planned on doing with 1450, but decided to do with Pacman). So, in 2-3 weeks, I will have a nice slurry of Pacman ready to roll, and was thinking that a Black IPA is in order (my girlfriend is in love with the style). After that I was thinking about playing around with the Unibroue yeast being released as a seasonal until I move in May and have to keg/bottle all my beer. How does this recipe look?

10 lbs 2-row
1 lb Crystal 60L
1 lb Dextrose
8 oz Sinamar

1 oz Cascade (5.7 AA) FWH
.5 oz CTZ (16.1 AA) 60 min
.5 oz Summit (18.5 AA) 30 min
1 oz Cascade (5.7 AA) 5 min
1 oz Simcoe (12.7 AA) 5 min
1.5 oz Simcoe (12.7 AA) 0 min
1.5 oz Cascade (5.7 AA) 0 min
1 oz Simcoe Dry Hop
1 oz CTZ Keg Hop

Pacman Yeast

Mash at 150 for 75 min, ferment in low 60s.
OG ~ 1.068, FG ~ 1.013, IBU ~ 63, SRM ~ 35

First of all, is this grain bill ok? Is corn sugar a good idea? Since sinamar is added to the boil, not the mash, is there any need to treat my water for the darker color? Like, should I put a Tbsp of chalk in the kettle, or do I just add gypsum as usual with an IPA?
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: boletivore on May 27, 2010, 07:27:36 PM
I finished off a keg of this last night and enjoyed every drop.
OG was 1.052.  Turned out very dark, as black as the commercial ones I have had

Bandwagon CDA

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal):        12.00    Wort Size (Gal):   12.00
Total Grain (Lbs):       22.00
Anticipated OG:          1.049    Plato:             12.15
Anticipated SRM:          19.6
Anticipated IBU:         109.4
Brewhouse Efficiency:       75 %
Wort Boil Time:             60    Minutes

Grain/Extract/Sugar

   %     Amount     Name                          Origin        Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 90.9    20.00 lbs. Pale Malt(2-row)              America        1.036      2
  4.5     1.00 lbs. Crystal 60L                      America        1.034     60
  4.5     1.00 lbs. Carafa Special II              Germany        1.030    415

Hops

   Amount     Name                              Form    Alpha  IBU  Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  4.00 oz.    Chinook                           Whole   13.00  97.0  60 min.
  4.00 oz.    Amarillo Gold                   Whole    9.20  11.4  1 min.
  0.25 oz.    Simcoe                            Whole   12.70   1.0  1 min.

Yeast - Wyeast American Ale II



Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on June 03, 2010, 01:54:13 PM
Imperial Black Ale

I dont see the point of just using coloring but thats just me.
I like the touch of roast in mine

Agreed... I like my Black IPAs to have a porter-ish grain bill with a hop schedule like my IPA (Simcoe, Amarillo, Warrior, Centennial)
Title: Re: Black IPA Idea?
Post by: bbump22 on June 09, 2010, 06:30:21 PM
Imperial Black Ale

I dont see the point of just using coloring but thats just me.
I like the touch of roast in mine

I made an experimental Black IPA using up some extracts I had remaining from other batches and bought a few steeping grains that included:  Chocolate Malt, C120, and a touch of Roast malt.  It turned out great, a little fuller body than I wanted (from the extracts used), but still sessionable and had a hint of the piney flavor often used to describe India Dark Ales...or Cascadian Dark Ales...or Black IPAs - same same.

Cheers.