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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: dzlater on February 08, 2010, 01:09:56 PM

Title: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: dzlater on February 08, 2010, 01:09:56 PM
I brewed a batch that called for first wort hopping.
Do you remove the first wort hops or leave them in
for the whole boil ? ( I left them in)
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: tygo on February 08, 2010, 01:35:59 PM
Yep, you leave them in for the entire boil.
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 08, 2010, 08:50:21 PM
I am not a big fan of FWH.
I did about 6 brews with it and all of them had harsh bitterness (my term).
I tried it with Saaz (Zatec) and Hallertau. 
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: mikeypedersen on February 08, 2010, 08:57:18 PM
I do it for my Pliny the Elder clone.  Seems to work OK there, granted that beer oozes hops, so it may only be good for beers designed to give you a Lupulin Threshold Shift.  ;)
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: denny on February 08, 2010, 08:59:06 PM
I did about 6 brews with it and all of them had harsh bitterness (my term).

Interesting...I've found exactly the opposite.
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 08, 2010, 09:09:08 PM
I did about 6 brews with it and all of them had harsh bitterness (my term).

Interesting...I've found exactly the opposite.

This might be my subjective observation but JamilZ had similar comments about FWH on some recent BN shows.

I mean is it works for you go for it.
I am just sharing my experience.

Declaimer:
I color of my cooler is orange,
I fly sparge and recirculate,
decoction mash is not a stranger in my household :)
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: mikeypedersen on February 08, 2010, 09:11:59 PM
Declaimer:
I color of my cooler is orange
Nice, had to laugh at that one!
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: denny on February 08, 2010, 09:13:57 PM

This might be my subjective observation but JamilZ had similar comments about FWH on some recent BN shows.

Jamil participated in the FWH experiment tasting I did.  I'd have to check my notes, but I don't recall any comments about harshness.

And I forgive you your brewing sins!  ;)
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: Hokerer on February 08, 2010, 09:15:52 PM
I am not a big fan of FWH.
I did about 6 brews with it and all of them had harsh bitterness (my term).
I tried it with Saaz (Zatec) and Hallertau. 

I've recently tried it with Cascade and Centennial and it's the smoothest hop flavor I've ever come across.  Definitely a keeper for me.
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: mikeypedersen on February 08, 2010, 09:16:11 PM
And I forgive you your brewing sins!  ;)
Is that a fly-sparging reference?
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 08, 2010, 09:16:25 PM
And I forgive you your brewing sins!  ;)

Thank you father  ;D
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: blatz on February 08, 2010, 09:17:51 PM
And I forgive you your brewing sins!  ;)
Is that a fly-sparging reference?

and decoction  :D ;)
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: blatz on February 08, 2010, 09:20:21 PM
DC - I think FWH may work well with lower AA varietals (ahem, Mt. Hood comes to mind?) but I found when I used big boys like Simcoe, the bitterness was just overwhelming since I went with the "treat it like a 20min addition" philosophy. 

Of course, this makes no sense relative to TM's statement, since Zots are one of the lowest AAs out there, usually.

To each their own.  ;)
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: bluesman on February 08, 2010, 09:20:27 PM
I use it for my Barleywine...and Denny's RIPA. It works great for those examples however it may not for less bitter styles. I think it will really depend on the type of hops and the style of beer you are trying to use and brew.
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 08, 2010, 09:29:28 PM
I think it will really depend on the type of hops and the style of beer you are trying to use and brew.

I agree. I tried it because I heard of SMOOTH bitterns.
I used it in Czech Pilsners and Alts.
May be it is my process but I come to a different conclusion.
I would not count it as 20 min addition.
I would say it was more like full boil time addition (90 min for me).
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: denny on February 08, 2010, 09:53:11 PM
And I forgive you your brewing sins!  ;)
Is that a fly-sparging reference?

and decoction  :D ;)

and orange cooler!
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: denny on February 08, 2010, 09:58:21 PM
DC - I think FWH may work well with lower AA varietals (ahem, Mt. Hood comes to mind?) but I found when I used big boys like Simcoe, the bitterness was just overwhelming since I went with the "treat it like a 20min addition" philosophy. 

Of course, this makes no sense relative to TM's statement, since Zots are one of the lowest AAs out there, usually.

To each their own.  ;)

Definitely to each their own.  I've often FWH with high alpha hops and haven't experienced what I found to be objectionable bitterness.
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: mathboy on February 09, 2010, 02:43:41 AM
A couple of interesting links about this that caught my eye recently:
http://appellationbeer.com/blog/mr-rock-prefers-that-beer-be-the-star/
http://www.brewery.org/library/1stwort.html

In discussing this in my local homebrew club list, I have come to understand that not only does one use low-alpha hops, one should do so in lieu of the aroma hops, or at least drastically reduce the aroma hops.  Maybe, then, in the end, we should make certain that the IBUs of the finished product does not change.  I occasionally use ProMash, and I know that the program will calculate IBUs for FWH.  Of course, who knows how accurate that calculation is....


Bruce

also, FWIW,
I have an orange and a blue cooler,
I decoct,
AND I just started to fly sparge. 


and I'm damned proud of it!
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: denny on February 09, 2010, 04:35:37 PM
In discussing this in my local homebrew club list, I have come to understand that not only does one use low-alpha hops, one should do so in lieu of the aroma hops, or at least drastically reduce the aroma hops.  Maybe, then, in the end, we should make certain that the IBUs of the finished product does not change.  I occasionally use ProMash, and I know that the program will calculate IBUs for FWH.  Of course, who knows how accurate that calculation is....

One of the reasons I ran my FWH experiment was to see how accurate it is...at least with the -65 setting I use.  The answer is pretty darn close.  And although much of the literature says to use low alpha hops and that you will get aroma from them, my experience is vastly different.
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: blatz on February 09, 2010, 04:37:22 PM
I thought the tests suggested 10% more than a 60 min addition(setting = 110), which doesn't correlate with the -65% (20min) ???
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: denny on February 09, 2010, 04:39:44 PM
Well, PM told me it was gonna be 30 IBU.  It measured 32.3.  IIRC....I'd have to dig out my notes to get the exact figures.  The 60 min. addition in the experiment came out at 30...again, IIRC.

EDIT:  something doesn't seem right now that I look at what I typed, but I won't have a chance to double check for a day or so....
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: blatz on February 09, 2010, 04:43:39 PM
right - you used the same weight of hops at FWH in one batch and at 60 min in the other batch, IIRC.

that would make sense then - 10% more than the 60 min contribution, or am I missing something?  but then promash set at -65 doesn't compute correctly.  when you put in the -65, do you set the 'time' at 20 min or 60 min?

I'm corn-fused now I think  :(
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: bluesman on February 09, 2010, 04:49:28 PM
Perhaps the lupulin gland oils that are dissolved at 150F vs boiled at 212F react to form different compounds that affect the perceived bitterness in various ways. There have been studies on the effects of temperature on alpha acids in the lupulin glands of hops. I would be interested to understand the findings, but it's $30.00 per study.  
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: denny on February 09, 2010, 05:03:41 PM
right - you used the same weight of hops at FWH in one batch and at 60 min in the other batch, IIRC.

that would make sense then - 10% more than the 60 min contribution, or am I missing something?  but then promash set at -65 doesn't compute correctly.  when you put in the -65, do you set the 'time' at 20 min or 60 min?

I'm corn-fused now I think  :(

Both of us, buddy....I'm running on a severe lack of sleep!  I put in -65 assuming a 60 min. total boil time.  Then, in the recipe calculator, I just choose FWH.
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: stout_fan on February 11, 2010, 08:05:42 PM
I always used to FWH. But then for an IPA I waited until after hot break.
Way more bitterness.
The hot break seems to take some of the acids out of solution.
So did I change?
Heck no!
Now I do both. :D
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: denny on February 12, 2010, 04:21:20 PM
Perhaps the lupulin gland oils that are dissolved at 150F vs boiled at 212F react to form different compounds that affect the perceived bitterness in various ways. There have been studies on the effects of temperature on alpha acids in the lupulin glands of hops. I would be interested to understand the findings, but it's $30.00 per study.  

This is what I've always heard and gone on.  It seems to be backed up by this...

http://www.franklinbrew.org/brewinfo/brauweltfwh.html
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: bluesman on February 12, 2010, 05:52:02 PM
Perhaps the lupulin gland oils that are dissolved at 150F vs boiled at 212F react to form different compounds that affect the perceived bitterness in various ways. There have been studies on the effects of temperature on alpha acids in the lupulin glands of hops. I would be interested to understand the findings, but it's $30.00 per study.  

This is what I've always heard and gone on.  It seems to be backed up by this...

http://www.franklinbrew.org/brewinfo/brauweltfwh.html

Yes. It appears the effects of oxidation on first wort hops are less therefore lending a rounder hop flavor and aroma. I'm sur Kai will chime in on this if he has time.
Title: Re: First Wort Hopping ?
Post by: BrewQwest on February 14, 2010, 04:38:14 PM
I think it will really depend on the type of hops and the style of beer you are trying to use and brew.

I agree. I tried it because I heard of SMOOTH bitterns.
I used it in Czech Pilsners and Alts.
May be it is my process but I come to a different conclusion.
I would not count it as 20 min addition.
I would say it was more like full boil time addition (90 min for me).

I have only tried it twice... the first time I added it to the wort AFTER I had collected all my runnings and then turned on the burner... The second time I placed them in the kettle BEFORE the runnings and let them steep in the hot runnings as collected.  Needless to say, the second time worked much better  :D