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General Category => Homebrew Clubs => Topic started by: toddster on June 25, 2012, 09:25:36 PM

Title: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: toddster on June 25, 2012, 09:25:36 PM
I read BN won the club of the year how'd that happen?
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: dbeechum on June 25, 2012, 09:40:29 PM
They had enough medalling entries in the first round and second. There's a club , self-organized by the listener base that is a properly registered club with the AHA.

The advent of online clubs back a few years ago led to a rule that limits the number of points an organization can accrue from all regions to the maximum they could from a single region. (e.g. the points for 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze). Then the second round works as it always does.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: brewmasternpb on June 26, 2012, 04:43:23 AM
This is probably as good a place as any to ask this... What's the consensus on this forum?  Is it fair for the Brewing Network to have it's own club (to compete for medals)?  I've tried to see if similar arguments are going around, as I believe that this is the second year in a row they've won.  I don't care about them being a virtual club, or anything like that, I just think that the BN radio show gives them a huge platform to gather members.  I know they're a properly registered club... but that doesn't require much effort, does it?  My club got registered pretty easily, if I remember correctly.
Just trying to see what others think...
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: tschmidlin on June 26, 2012, 04:58:29 AM
Yes, being a virtual club and having the radio show gives them a huge platform for gathering members.  On the other hand, if you had a club of 40 members who all entered beers you'd have a pretty good shot of winning club of the year too.  It helps a lot if they make good beer of course, something they could learn to do by listening to the BN shows . . .

I don't know what other people think, but I'm happy for the guys in the BN club.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: brewmasternpb on June 26, 2012, 05:20:53 AM
So far, I'm only seeing support on various forums FOR the BN Army, and no real dissent... There was a blog post from JP, complaining about them not getting enough applause when they took their award...
http://moderndaymerrick.blogspot.com/2012/06/brewing-network-club-you-can-count-on.html
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: tschmidlin on June 26, 2012, 05:47:25 AM
Weak.  Silence with some boos?  I like JP, but that's BS.  I was there both times and there was a lot of cheering.  If he didn't feel like there was enough cheering that's one thing, but he's making it out to be something it wasn't.  I was there in 2007 when the St. Paul guys beat Quaff to keep them from winning 7 times straight, that's the loudest I've ever heard anyone cheer for the winner.  By the next year when St. Paul won it wasn't nearly as loud.

If anything, it was the BN guys themselves who were subdued about it - like they were waiting for the crowd reaction rather than just celebrating their win.  I cheered, my table cheered, the tables around us cheered - and we were right in front of the stage.  I guess he didn't hear us.  ;) ;D
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: phillamb168 on June 26, 2012, 09:11:08 AM
So, why does his blog post only feature comments supporting his claims of 'silence and a few boos?'

Also, frankly I understand why some people are not happy about it. Clubs are local, yo. It's not easy to keep people from a single region together and interested, especially not when there's no incentive to stay in a club when you can just write 'Brewing Network' under the club name for your submissions.

Also I am generally not a fan of BN, mostly because I don't like what I see as some sort of forced juvenile behavior. But then again I really cannot stand Bubba or Howard Stern - I grew up a long time ago.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: narvin on June 26, 2012, 09:30:35 AM
What a bratty blog post.  If anything, the crowd was surprised since not everyone knows the rules for club of the year and the consensus up to that point was, "Hey, those guys from Austin are winning EVERYTHING".
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: mmitchem on June 26, 2012, 12:48:11 PM
I think that the BN has a good thing going for it...and ANYONE can have a club in this manner as long as it follows the same rules. It gives the folks with no club ,or a club that isn't what they had hoped, a chance to be part of a group that is working to advance home brewing.
Sometimes when people are looking for a backlash, they can create it in their own mind, even in the face of praise. I hope that this is such a case. Congrats BN!
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: gsandel on June 26, 2012, 01:27:45 PM
I don't see the why care here.  It isn't like the Club of the Year has any value (like they get to choose where the next conference is held)...it is like the medal count at the Olympics....fun, but doesn't mean anything....especially since no geographical tie makes membership easier (and other rules allowing anyone to enter any region), until some other virtual club comes on-line, they will continue to win.

BN is funny after you listen for a while....I used to think it was childish, and then I realized I was a child....

g
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: macbrews on June 26, 2012, 02:18:55 PM
I was there.  There was definitely applause, but it was not as loud as for the individual awards.  I heard no boos - might have been some, just didn't hear any or just didn't notice.

I personally think there is a disadvantage to being in an internet club.  The best education I get is from feedback from my fellow homebrewers.  I find that invaluable.

Out of curiosity, how many members are there in BN?
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: prccap on June 26, 2012, 02:20:12 PM
COngrats to the BN on winning, but they are basically a commercially funded club and the rules need to change, but not exclude them
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: udubdawg on June 26, 2012, 02:27:50 PM

The advent of online clubs back a few years ago led to a rule that limits the number of points an organization can accrue from all regions to the maximum they could from a single region. (e.g. the points for 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze). Then the second round works as it always does.

Drew, am I missing something here?  Is (6+4+2)*28 really the limitation on first round points?  336 just from the first round doesn't seem like much of a limitation!

I don't mind BN winning.  Without them only a few clubs are still in the running anyway.  So a few childish drunk people weren't very respectful.  Shocking.  No worse than the whiny blog post.  Maybe they should set up some regions within their organization and have some internal rivalry rather than complain about the strength of the accolades. 

cheers--
--Michael
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 26, 2012, 03:34:31 PM
I was a little slow to cheer, as I was convinced it would be Austin Zealots and was surprised by the name announced.  After a short pause, I go, yeah the first round was big for them and cheered.

Didn't hear any boos where I was.

Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: sfletty on June 26, 2012, 04:39:30 PM
There were no boos that I heard.

I did not applaud.

Why?

I don't think a national virtual club is the same animal as any other regional club. I don't think it's a level playing field when that virtual club can flood multiple regions.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: theDarkSide on June 26, 2012, 06:15:51 PM
Did not hear the boos from the cheap seats, but the mood was definately subdued ( except for the jerk in the green BNA7 shirt screaming at the top of his lungs, i.e. me ).

I've always entered under the BN and was fortunate enough to contribute to the award this year.  Until recently, I could not affiliate myself with a local club due to their meeting times conflicting with my schedules.  I have now found a club semi-nearby that meets on a day and time that I can make.  I've only been going for about 7-8 months and we're still working on formalizing the club direction ( although we are an official AHA club ).  So next year, I will be entering this club for my competitions. 

But I will always be a member of the BN Army, and will continue to celebrate our successes.  And I can guarantee next year if a different club wins, the BN will stand and cheer louder than anyone ( except for the winning club of course )...because in the end, it's all about the beer!

Brew Strong BN Army and Congratulations!! 
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: garc_mall on June 26, 2012, 06:44:40 PM

The advent of online clubs back a few years ago led to a rule that limits the number of points an organization can accrue from all regions to the maximum they could from a single region. (e.g. the points for 1 gold, 1 silver, 1 bronze). Then the second round works as it always does.

Drew, am I missing something here?  Is (6+4+2)*28 really the limitation on first round points?  336 just from the first round doesn't seem like much of a limitation!

I don't mind BN winning.  Without them only a few clubs are still in the running anyway.  So a few childish drunk people weren't very respectful.  Shocking.  No worse than the whiny blog post.  Maybe they should set up some regions within their organization and have some internal rivalry rather than complain about the strength of the accolades. 

cheers--
--Michael

The way I understand this to work is rather than the point total being the limiting factor, it is the actual beer. So even if a club took 2 golds in 1 style in 2 separate regions, only 1 gold would count. The points for the other gold would be lost.

I clapped, but I was not as enthusiastic as some other people. I am still torn on the idea of these big overarching national clubs. I think they are great for people who live out in the beer deserts, and can't find a club. However, I worry about the people who won't look for a local club, because they can just throw brewing network under their entry. I don't have a problem with BN in particular, but I would hope that BN can encourage members to join local clubs and be a part of that community. I learned at club night that there are 4-6 more homebrew clubs I could join within a 20 minute drive, so I am interested in meeting more people who love homebrew.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: theDarkSide on June 26, 2012, 06:54:34 PM
I don't have a problem with BN in particular, but I would hope that BN can encourage members to join local clubs and be a part of that community.

As someone who listens to all the shows, this is done extensively, almost to the point of "ok we get it" and will be again on the next session I'm sure.

Does anyone know the total points yet?  If last year is any indication, then we are talking about the BN, DOZE, or Quaff being COTY.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: garc_mall on June 26, 2012, 07:07:28 PM
I don't have a problem with BN in particular, but I would hope that BN can encourage members to join local clubs and be a part of that community.

As someone who listens to all the shows, this is done extensively, almost to the point of "ok we get it" and will be again on the next session I'm sure.

Does anyone know the total points yet?  If last year is any indication, then we are talking about the BN, DOZE, or Quaff being COTY.

That's all I really ask. I have so much stuff I listen to, I don't get around to BN as much as I would like. I also want to say I had worn myself out cheering for the cidermaker and homebrewer of the year awards, who were from Washington, and cleaning it up for the home state.

I haven't heard anything about total points, but Austin Zealots took a lot of points in the second round, so I would expect them to be up there as well.

I found this in the competition rules for 2011:
Quote
Homebrew Club of the Year will be awarded to the club that accumulates the most total
points in all categories of beer, mead and cider in the First and Final Rounds, as well as the
AHA Club-Only Competitions. In the First and Final Rounds, six points are awarded for a
first place, four points for a second place and two points for a third place. In the First
Round, a club may only receive points for a maximum of three awards per category, the
highest three awards shall be counted, not to exceed a 12-point maximum. In the AHA
Club-Only Competitions, points are awarded on a twelve-eight-four basis for each of the six
AHA Club-Only Competitions in the August to May cycle.

I think that it might be better if the second round points were doubled in NHC. Since there are 11 judging centers in the first round, I think that a bump to second round scores would help even out the "Large vs Small" debate, including the really huge local clubs, such as DOZE, QUAFF, the Zealots, and even Maltose Falcons.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: weithman5 on June 26, 2012, 07:10:32 PM

 I worry about the people who won't look for a local club, because they can just throw brewing network under their entry.

i am not a member of a local club, mostly because i have conflicts at meeting time, and the local club is kind of big for me.  however, why do other people like me have to joing the brewing network just to put a club on their entry?  In other words, i entered without a club affiliation. 
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: morticaixavier on June 26, 2012, 08:24:28 PM
I really don't think it's that big a deal but...

I do see that even with the 1st round points restriction a big club has an advantage because, although they may not get the points for other regions neither does any other club if BN took the medals in that region.

However, balancing that out is the Club Only Comps in which each club can only enter 1 beer. the big national clubs are actually at a disadvantage here because it is difficult for them to decide who should enter. and that's as much as 6 X 12 points for a single club and a total of 6 X (12 + 8 + 4) available points for all clubs who enter. I notice BN army got 0 of those points last year.

**EDIT** Unless my math is totally off there is a total of 3696 points available from the first round alone (do the mead and cider categories count?) if a single club can only capture 12 of those they are going to have to do really well in the second round to ensure victory. a single club could walk away with 72 points (not likely but possible) from the CoC which could easily wash out any first round winnings from other clubs. given that total points available for the second round are 336 a club who has really flooded the second round COULD win overwhelmingly but that doesn't seem alot more likely than sweeping the CoC
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: hopfenundmalz on June 27, 2012, 03:14:18 AM
The last comment to that blog was by Curt Stock (sp), and he summed it up better than I ever could. :-[
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: tschmidlin on June 27, 2012, 06:14:40 AM
So, why does his blog post only feature comments supporting his claims of 'silence and a few boos?'
I don't see those . . . there's a bunch of people who agree it is BS, but it looks like most of them weren't actually there and are just relying on JPs version of events.  If it went down like that I'd be pissed too, but that's not the way it was where I was sitting.

But to be fair to JP, no, I did not cheer as loudly for them winning Club of the Year as when my friend Roger Kee won Cidermaker of the Year, or when another local WA guy (Jonathan Permen, I haven't met him) won Homebrewer of the Year.  When local guys win big awards you have to expect the place to go crazy, like garc mentioned.  Compared to those, yes, the coty cheering was subdued.  But it was also subdued for Schoppe, Eibner, and BURP if you discount their club members present.

Anyway, good for the BN club.  I'll cheer for them again if they win next year.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: phillamb168 on June 27, 2012, 07:57:14 AM
Perhaps there was less cheering because we couldn't hear all cheering from the internet?
Title: Re: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: ccfoo242 on June 27, 2012, 11:32:31 AM
Perhaps there was less cheering because we couldn't hear all cheering from the internet?

BAZINGA!  :)

Sent from the future...
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: hubie on June 28, 2012, 02:04:43 PM
I'm not a member of a club so I'm not sure how this works.  In various places I've seen people list that they belong to such-and-such club as well as the BN.  When you enter, are you allowed to put down all the clubs to which you belong, or do you have to pick just one, or do the points get split by the number of clubs listed? 

Also, for someone like me who has picked up a lot of good info from the BN but am perhaps too cheap (or some other reason) to join, it would be easy for me to say that I belong to the BN on the entry out of perhaps some desire to feel like I'm supporting them in some way for the free podcasts I've downloaded.  Is there any validation on this at any level, that the person on the entry is in current good standing in the club that they entered?  My guess that, given the volume of entries and the volunteer nature of the event, the answer is no, but that would be one place where I would think a national virtual club would have an advantage.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: beerrat on July 06, 2012, 02:28:20 PM
I'm late to this thread as I spend some more time in the fine Seattle area after the conference. Washington State should be proud! (Although you need to work on your ball team - fans too subdued - you should be yelling at your players - the east coast in me! :-)

This was my first AHA conference and the event was fantastic.  I did think the awards dinner ended a bit uncomfortably... I did not hear any boo's, but there was a noticeable toned down cheering, and the "I can hear the rules changing comment" seemed almost prepared.

I did not cheer as loudly as I mostly shouted for the individuals, and was hoping for a new club or Washington state club to win (I'm from PA, but always root for the home teams!).  I would have been subdued towards DOZE, ST Paul or Quaff too. (I boo the Yankee's and Patriots, root for the Cub's very year - just my nature)

I read JP's post and was disappointed with the public rant - being just what he was criticizing, petty.
At the event, I did heard varying opinions on if BNarmy is a club, but in any organization, you are going to have varying opinions.  It is naive to think all have same views - hell, we can't agree on decoction or no decoction - so what.

IMHO, I considered the Brewing Network and BNArmy, as a commercial media enterprise. I guess I would find it odd to have a BeerSmith Brew Club, White Labs Club, Northern Brewer Beer or other business club.

That all said, they are a Club per AHA and I would hope that no special rules are made to treat them differently.  That would be dangerous for the organization.

Does the BNArmy have an advantage - yes - timing - there was no internet podcasts 20 years ago.  They took advantage of  the internet - using it in an engaging, entertaining, and informative way.  So they ended up with energetic, passionate brewers who entered a lot of beer in the NHC.  Something any club can do if they choose to.

So my winning strategy for 2013 for my club is simple.. get about 10-15 of your club brewers making great beers and ensure they set the alarm for the registration date/time for NHC 2013.

I hope to see you all in Philly. 
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: theDarkSide on July 06, 2012, 03:31:56 PM
(I boo the Yankee's and Patriots, root for the Cub's very year - just my nature)

Oh, I'll be looking for you in Philly!!!  I can accept that first boo, but the second, well them's is fightin' words  ;)  And if the Red Sox can't win the WS ( i.e. 2012 ) then GO CUBBIES!!

As far as the NB or White Labs club comparison, I believe Justin has mentioned on the show that it wasn't even him that formed the BN club, but some BN Army member.  I'll have to listen back to last years post-NHC show to verify.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: hoser on July 06, 2012, 03:44:55 PM
(I boo the Yankee's and Patriots, root for the Cub's very year - just my nature)

Oh, I'll be looking for you in Philly!!!  I can accept that first boo, but the second, well them's is fightin' words  ;)  And if the Red Sox can't win the WS ( i.e. 2012 ) then GO CUBBIES!!

As far as the NB or White Labs club comparison, I believe Justin has mentioned on the show that it wasn't even him that formed the BN club, but some BN Army member.  I'll have to listen back to last years post-NHC show to verify.

Nope, you are correct.  Justin had nothing to do with forming the BN club, a listener did.  He actually resisted it at first.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: Jimmy K on July 06, 2012, 05:05:11 PM
I propose we found the AHA Forum Marines to compete with the BN Army. Everybody knows the best brewers are already here!
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: Pinski on July 06, 2012, 05:34:42 PM
How about the AHA Toast Guard? ::)
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: svejk on July 08, 2012, 08:42:01 PM
I thought this was pretty interesting to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vShBbbvmbMg&list=UUuHvF7Dqj-O3VvuUvXufCkA&index=1&feature=plcp

At 1:35:00 you can see the announcement of BN Army as COTY.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: ccfoo242 on July 09, 2012, 02:29:44 AM
I thought this was pretty interesting to watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vShBbbvmbMg&list=UUuHvF7Dqj-O3VvuUvXufCkA&index=1&feature=plcp

At 1:35:00 you can see the announcement of BN Army as COTY.

Very different than JP's post. I didn't hear boo's and there's plenty of applause. But then Justin's like "it's  almost quiet enough to hear the rules changing..."  But then I don't have previous years to compare that to, sooo...
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: theDarkSide on July 09, 2012, 12:50:02 PM
I didn't hear any boo's either, but plenty of applause?  Most of what you hear is coming from the front table where the BN setup and gets picked up on audio.  And I can tell you there was not much in my section either.

Looking at that crowd and a LOT of people sitting on their hands, it's obvious that there is a lot hard "feelings" out there.  Justin's speech, now that I've had chance to listen to it is pretty funny, about how he has always been proud of every club that has come up on the stage for COTY...

Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: ccfoo242 on July 09, 2012, 01:48:52 PM
Most of what you hear is coming from the front table where the BN setup and gets picked up on audio.

Ah, ok.
Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: micsager on July 16, 2012, 04:22:43 PM
There were no boos that I heard.

I did not applaud.

Why?

I don't think a national virtual club is the same animal as any other regional club. I don't think it's a level playing field when that virtual club can flood multiple regions.

I didn't hear any boos.  And I cheered for them.  I am a long-time private in the BNA.  Justin Crossley has created a very nice business for himself, and his efforts are teaching the world to home brew.  I learned so much from Brewstrong.  Now that they do almost all Q&A shows, I don't like them as much, but I still listen.  And the Session is a perfect backdrop to a brew day.

But, I enter my beers in the name of my local club, not the BN.  A friend and I started this club 5 years ago, and we are really starting to see some nice things happen.  Next January when we elect officers, I will fade out of a leadership role, and "just" be a member.  And that is one difference the BN has with most other clubs.  They don't choose their leadership.  Justin OWNS that club.  And the line between what Justin owns, and what is a homebrew club is very fuzzy. 

Title: Re: BN Army wins club of the year.
Post by: nateo on August 30, 2012, 09:42:55 PM
I didn't really have an opinion of the BN Army winning the award, until I read that blog by JP. It was petulant, immature, and offensive. Anytime someone tells me I have to respect them, or congratulate them, I get offended. I would totally boo him now.