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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: majorvices on July 15, 2012, 01:28:19 pm

Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 15, 2012, 01:28:19 pm
I know a lot of you and have met many of you personally, and of course, I love almost every homebrewer I have ever met. But don't be "That guy".

"That guy" is the guy who showed up at our "Randall" event at a draft to go store yesterday. I wasn't there, I was at the brewery, brewing. But "That Guy" walks up to one of my partners and starts flexing his brewing muscles, asking questions about the beer, and then telling my partner why it wasn't the way he would do it. eg: I don't think an IIPA should ever be over 8% abv., and other assorted, sundry, observations and points.

Not in any way saying you have to bow down in front of your commercial brewing brethren, but for heaven's sake, if you think you can do it better yourself open your own damn brewery. And, please, at least try the beer before casting your aspersions.

(Yes, I'm hoping "that guy", by chance, reads the forum.)
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: denny on July 15, 2012, 01:50:53 pm
I know a lot of you and have met many of you personally, and of course, I love almost every homebrewer I have ever met. But don't be "That guy".

"That guy" is the guy who showed up at our "Randall" event at a draft to go store yesterday. I wasn't there, I was at the brewery, brewing. But "That Guy" walks up to one of my partners and starts flexing his brewing muscles, asking questions about the beer, and then telling my partner why it wasn't the way he would do it. eg: I don't think an IIPA should ever be over 8% abv., and other assorted, sundry, observations and points.

Not in any way saying you have to bow down in front of your commercial brewing brethren, but for heaven's sake, if you think you can do it better yourself open your own damn brewery. And, please, at least try the beer before casting your aspersions.

(Yes, I'm hoping "that guy", by chance, reads the forum.)

I wonder how long "that guy" has been brewing.  Seems like the longer someone brews, the more they relate to what Jethro Gump said....

"The more I know about beer, the more I know I need to know more about beer".


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Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: nateo on July 15, 2012, 01:58:46 pm
Did he say he could do it better, or was he just offering advice on how to improve your product?
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 15, 2012, 02:08:20 pm
Did he say he could do it better, or was he just offering advice on how to improve your product?

I don't know that he said either. Sounds like he had never even tried the beer. He was just saying what he would do differently and maybe insinuating that we really didn't know what the f##k we were doing. I think our beer is quite good, sometimes even verging on excellent. Point I am trying to get to is that "unsolicited" advice from homebrewers at events or on tours is not really wanted at the commercial level. If we sit down and start drinking some beers, and strike up a conversation that may be different.

As Denny mentions, brewing is a craft, and as a craft it is a life long endeavor to sharpen that craft. Heaven forbid we ever stop learning, it would be no fun. But I have been brewing for 17 years now and I guess I don't take too kindly to people offering up advice on how they would do it differently. I do it this way, because I like it. I still brew for myself, even on the commercial level. If I don't like the beer I won't sell it.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: denny on July 15, 2012, 02:12:43 pm
The beers of yours I've tried have been uniformly excellent.  Even if they weren't I'd be more inclined to say it isn't to my taste rather than try to tell you how to do it. 
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: nateo on July 15, 2012, 03:16:40 pm
I was at a brewery that made a cream ale that was harsh and unpleasant. Their water hardness was 246mg/L. I mentioned that to the brewer, and he basically said he didn't care what I thought. I'm sure he thought I was "that guy," but I'm also sure I was right. Being a wanker and being right aren't mutually exclusive. If you don't want feedback from the public, stop talking to the public.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: a10t2 on July 15, 2012, 03:17:10 pm
That Guy comes in to the taproom quite a bit, and once he has a few pints in him he'll start telling anyone who'll listen how his home brews are better, and x, y, and z changes need to be made to our recipes. Oddly enough, it doesn't really seem to bother him during the first 3-4 beers... ::)

I would assume that (with the possible exception of brewing for competition) *all* home brewers' recipes are based on their personal tastes. It isn't even possible to brew a commercial beer that will please everyone.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: a10t2 on July 15, 2012, 03:19:15 pm
If you don't want feedback from the public, stop talking to the public.

The only problem with that approach is that there are plenty of home brewers who assume that anyone sitting at the bar and wearing boots wants to talk recipe design.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: nateo on July 15, 2012, 03:23:43 pm
The only problem with that approach is that there are plenty of home brewers who assume that anyone sitting at the bar and wearing boots wants to talk recipe design.

Shouldn't you be glad your customers want to engage with you about your product? Why are you sitting at the bar if you don't want to be bothered? I deal with wankers with stupid opinions every day. Trouble is, they're my customers, and I wouldn't be in business without them, so I don't see the value in rolling my eyes when they talk to me.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: a10t2 on July 15, 2012, 03:41:57 pm
I definitely see your point, and I'm sympathetic to it. I was just pointing out that it isn't necessarily as simple as "stop talking to the public" because sometimes "the public" will talk to you regardless.

Plus, sitting at the bar doesn't inherently mean I want to talk to anyone. Sometimes at the end of a long day I just want to get off my feet and catch up on sports highlights. Believe me, 90% of the time I'm ecstatic to talk beer with anyone, for any length of time (as anyone I met at NHC can probably attest).
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: garc_mall on July 15, 2012, 03:57:45 pm
I was at a brewery that made a cream ale that was harsh and unpleasant. Their water hardness was 246mg/L. I mentioned that to the brewer, and he basically said he didn't care what I thought. I'm sure he thought I was "that guy," but I'm also sure I was right. Being a wanker and being right aren't mutually exclusive. If you don't want feedback from the public, stop talking to the public.

I think the difference here was that you tasted a problem, and offered a possible solution to the problem. It seems that in Keith's case, the homebrewer wasn't interested in solving problems or flavor, he just wanted to claim he knew more about beer than the "pro." I ask a LOT of questions about the beer I drink, as most people who met me at NHC can attest. But unless I taste a distinct off-flavor, I won't suggest anything to any brewer (Home or pro) unless they request it.

Also, I can attest that Sean likes to talk about beer. And I am glad that the picture of you in that hat made it to the AHA forums, so everyone can see how hideous it is.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: deepsouth on July 15, 2012, 04:16:25 pm
i was never "that guy", because i was always conscientious about not being "him", but there was a time that i didn't realize how little i knew.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: a10t2 on July 15, 2012, 04:21:33 pm
And I am glad that the picture of you in that hat made it to the AHA forums, so everyone can see how hideous it is.

You misspelled "awesome". ;)
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: thebigbaker on July 15, 2012, 04:26:05 pm
I hope to never be that guy, but I just may be "that guy that asks 1,000 questions." 
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: nateo on July 15, 2012, 04:45:33 pm
In my psych class in college, we looked at a half dozen or so studies that showed saying negative things about someone made you look bad, not the person you said negative things about.

My business is fishing tackle. If you think homebrewers can be opinionated, you should meet some fly fishermen. I post on fly fishing forums, and I would never in a million years post something on there about how annoying the fly fishing version of "that guy" is, if for no other reason than I like money, and it might hurt peoples' perception of my business. It takes a lot of time and energy to build a reputation for a business, and you should be careful what you want to broadcast on the internet. Does that count as unsolicited feedback? If so, sorry I brought it up.   

Also, every second you're in your store, you have to be "on." I wish I could just hang out in my business and not be bothered by people, but a big part of how successful we are, as a business, is because of how we come across, as people. I wish I could just head to the stream and be casual, but I'll see customers there and I have to be nice to them. If I don't want anyone to bother me, I go crappie fishing at the lake.
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: denny on July 15, 2012, 05:37:02 pm
And I am glad that the picture of you in that hat made it to the AHA forums, so everyone can see how hideous it is.

You misspelled "awesome". ;)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: narvin on July 15, 2012, 05:42:39 pm
I think "that guy" can exist on either side of the bar.  You can have an opinion, but that's different from being clueless and vocal at the same time.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: narvin on July 15, 2012, 05:43:45 pm

Also, I can attest that Sean likes to talk about beer. And I am glad that the picture of you in that hat made it to the AHA forums, so everyone can see how hideous it is.

I have a picture with Sean in that hat from Seattle, but I haven't posted it.  Problem is, I look like more of a douche than he does!
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: dannyjed on July 15, 2012, 05:44:32 pm
"that guy" can also go by the name of "Mr. Know-it-all"...never mind, it reminded me of a Stevie Wonder song.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: erockrph on July 15, 2012, 08:54:55 pm
Now that I have enough brews under my belt to feel like I'm pretty comfortable with certain styles of beer, I often have beers that are completely not my taste or seem like something's off. Usually I can place my finger on it (i.e., too much crystal malt in pale ales). Sometimes I can't quite nail it down (i.e., something's going on with the yeast/fermentation).

Even if I don't like a beer, I think it's absurd to bust a guy's balls about it. Obviously he knows how to make beer that people enjoy or else he won't be in business long. I usually take it as an opportunity to talk shop with the brewer. If there's something I don't like in a beer, I generally ask as much detail about it without letting on that I'm not a fan. This way I'll learn exactly what not to do in my own brews.

Either way, no need to be a prick about things regardless of what side of the bar you're on.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: punatic on July 15, 2012, 09:50:10 pm
"Stupid is as stupid does." 

One of the most liberating points in life is when you reach the point where others' opinions of you no longer affect your self worth.  Hopefully that point comes early in your life.  If you are happy with yourself and satisfied that you are living by your own values, who gives a s*** how others judge you (or your work)?
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 15, 2012, 10:52:56 pm
I was at a brewery that made a cream ale that was harsh and unpleasant. Their water hardness was 246mg/L. I mentioned that to the brewer, and he basically said he didn't care what I thought. I'm sure he thought I was "that guy," but I'm also sure I was right. Being a wanker and being right aren't mutually exclusive. If you don't want feedback from the public, stop talking to the public.

Perhaps, in this case,  the brewer may have known what the problem was, but didn't have a means to fix it. Commercial brewers brew under different constraints than homebrewers. It's why I only brew certain style of beers at my location. "That guy" thinks he knows f'ing everything. But he doesn't really know sh!t. Don't be that guy. And don't make assumptions, either.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: phillamb168 on July 16, 2012, 01:44:54 am
"Stupid is as stupid does." 

One of the most liberating points in life is when you reach the point where others' opinions of you no longer affect your self worth.  Hopefully that point comes early in your life.  If you are happy with yourself and satisfied that you are living by your own values, who gives a s*** how others judge you (or your work)?

+like a million

Of course it needs balance, otherwise you go too far off the other side and wind up looking self-centered. But in my experience, knowing enough and having enough experience to be comfortable confidant, that's a big thing.
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 16, 2012, 07:24:56 am
Well, FWIW, the only opinions of me that matter are from my friends and family. It's not a "self worth" thing. I'm not adversly affected by critiques. Hell, I'm also a graphic designer. Talk about people being critical!

All I'm saying is, as homebrewers, we should be careful about assuming we know more than the commercial brewer. It makes us look silly and it makes commercial brewers hesitant to interact with homebrewers.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: pyrite on July 16, 2012, 07:33:03 am
Well, FWIW, the only opinions of me that matter are from my friends and family. It's not a "self worth" thing. I'm not adversly affected by critiques. Hell, I'm also a graphic designer. Talk about people being critical!

No doubt you see how folks are often quick to criticize and reluctant to praise hard work.
 
I have in my office a quote from President Teddy Roosevelt, who said that “It is not the critic who counts … the credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena”. I firmly believe in that sentiment.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: denny on July 16, 2012, 10:08:12 am
"Stupid is as stupid does." 

One of the most liberating points in life is when you reach the point where others' opinions of you no longer affect your self worth.  Hopefully that point comes early in your life.  If you are happy with yourself and satisfied that you are living by your own values, who gives a s*** how others judge you (or your work)?

Once I hit 60, I completely embraced that philosophy.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: madscientist on July 16, 2012, 10:23:33 am
I know someone like this.  He's a family member, and him and I were talking about Brewing and he was very quick to point out what was wrong with my entire process, or what he thought was wrong.  Just solidifed the fact that there's more than one way to do something, and if the things he does work for him, fine.  Personally I'm not gonna put any beer in a bottle that hasn't been hit with StarSan but that's just me. 
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: Alewyfe on July 16, 2012, 10:34:20 am
Believe me, 90% of the time I'm ecstatic to talk beer with anyone, for any length of time (as anyone I met at NHC can probably attest).

OMG...you're a real person!!!!!  I thought you were just some loquacious incarnation of beer verbosity created to entertain people at the NHC. ;-)
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: bluesman on July 16, 2012, 10:51:25 am
"Stupid is as stupid does." 

One of the most liberating points in life is when you reach the point where others' opinions of you no longer affect your self worth.  Hopefully that point comes early in your life.  If you are happy with yourself and satisfied that you are living by your own values, who gives a s*** how others judge you (or your work)?

Once I hit 60, I completely embraced that philosophy.

I try to stay within a stone's throw of this philosophy.  Although, sometimes I may get sidetracked by some negative comments, but often times I'm able to reel myself back in and avoid being drawn into such
nonsense. Avoiding this kind of exchange is condusive to my livelyhood.  :)
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: nateo on July 16, 2012, 11:38:16 am
My momma always told me "You can learn something from everyone." 99% of whatever anyone says on any topic is probably bulls***, but if you can stand to wade through the muck, everyone has a diamond or two hidden in there somewhere.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: Kit B on July 16, 2012, 02:06:35 pm
Is it possible that your partner got the wrong impression?

I understand that there is always "That Guy" roaming the earth...
But, how are good ideas ever formed & exchanged, if not for conversation.
I wonder whether "That Guy" thought there was a dialogue happening between both parties, rather than the monologue that your partner may have been seeing.

Heck...I don't know what the conversation pertained to, but if I was talking with someone about running cooling lines & had a tip I thought might help their efficiency, I'd give them the tip...Would that make me "That Guy"?
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 16, 2012, 02:30:46 pm
Come one, guys. I don't think I have to spell it out any more than I have already. The implication seemed to be that our IIPA was not brewed to his specifications. (It's a 1.083 beer brewed primarily with 2 row, 5% sugar and 5% cara-vienne with a huge amount of centennial and columbus at WP and dry hopped with another equally large charge. At 7 bbls we use 29 lbs of hops before dry hopping. It's also one of our most sought after beers.) All I am saying is, have a little respect for the guys who have put it all out on the line. Try not to act like a "know it all". I think it is safe to say that since I am on this forum and the pro-brewer site everyday that I am not afraid to gather knowledge.
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 16, 2012, 02:32:26 pm
I might point out again that the guy hadn't even tried the beer.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: richardt on July 16, 2012, 02:32:48 pm
Whenever I find myself taken aback or getting defensive by what is being said, I try to remember the adage:  "separate the message from the messenger."  Don't focus on WHO is saying it, or HOW they're saying it; instead, focus on WHAT is being said.  Sadly, some people just do rub others the wrong way, and they may lack the proper use of tact and tone when asking questions or discussing their viewpoints.

Still, it is wise to treat everyone with politeness, even those who are rude to you--not because they are nice, but because you are.  Besides, if your beer is good (and everyone here says it is)--that pretty much speaks for itself, doesn't it?

 
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: punatic on July 16, 2012, 02:47:07 pm
(It's a 1.083 beer brewed primarily with 2 row, 5% sugar and 5% cara-vienne with a huge amount of centennial and columbus at WP and dry hopped with another equally large charge. At 7 bbls we use 29 lbs of hops before dry hopping. It's also one of our most sought after beers.)

Damn Keith!  I had to handcuff myself to the chair and throw away the key to keep from jumping on the next plane to Huntsville.  That sounds like my kind of beer!

Maybe you could come over and guest brew at Hawaii Nui for a while...  ;)
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: richardt on July 16, 2012, 02:52:42 pm
I agree!  I'd totally be all over that beer.
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 16, 2012, 02:54:13 pm
I just brewed it again yesteerday, it'll be ready in 3 weeks or so. Ya'll come. ;)
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: Joe Sr. on July 16, 2012, 02:55:51 pm
Come one, guys. I don't think I have to spell it out any more than I have already. The implication seemed to be that our IIPA was not brewed to his specifications. (It's a 1.083 beer brewed primarily with 2 row, 5% sugar and 5% cara-vienne with a huge amount of centennial and columbus at WP and dry hopped with another equally large charge. At 7 bbls we use 29 lbs of hops before dry hopping. It's also one of our most sought after beers.) All I am saying is, have a little respect for the guys who have put it all out on the line. Try not to act like a "know it all". I think it is safe to say that since I am on this forum and the pro-brewer site everyday that I am not afraid to gather knowledge.

That guy is out there and he's everywhere.  I just ignore him and don't worry about what he has to say.

99% of the time, he's a douche anyway.

Why get worked up over it?
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: Kit B on July 16, 2012, 02:56:43 pm
Come one, guys. I don't think I have to spell it out any more than I have already. The implication seemed to be that our IIPA was not brewed to his specifications. (It's a 1.083 beer brewed primarily with 2 row, 5% sugar and 5% cara-vienne with a huge amount of centennial and columbus at WP and dry hopped with another equally large charge. At 7 bbls we use 29 lbs of hops before dry hopping. It's also one of our most sought after beers.) All I am saying is, have a little respect for the guys who have put it all out on the line. Try not to act like a "know it all". I think it is safe to say that since I am on this forum and the pro-brewer site everyday that I am not afraid to gather knowledge.

Sorry, Keith...
I misunderstood & thought you were giving examples of what "That Guy" normally might inject into the conversation...
I didn't read the text of that post to be exactly what he was saying, to your partner.

At the same time...
So, he hadn't yet tried your beer & wanted to discuss how he'd make a IIPA differently...
Is that insulting?
Even modest folks have opinions.

EDIT:
I understand that there are negative people, everywhere.
They come in all shapes, sizes & occupations.
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 16, 2012, 03:25:13 pm
I guess it was insulting, but mostly I just thought it was stupid. But no apologies necessary. It's cool.

Let me put it another way, I met Rob Widmer at NHC and I walked up and shook his hand and told him how much of the specialty beers they were serving at the NHC were extremely delicious (and, they were) and how I enjoyed seeing old pictures of his brewery because it reminded me of the stuff I was brewing on now (home made, much of it) and thanked him. I didn't go into telling him that I thought he should call his "hefe-wezien" an American Wheat beer or that, no, I don't enjoy many of the mass produced beers he ships across country. The guy has a successful business, way more successful than mine. Who am I to walk up and criticize him?
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: nateo on July 16, 2012, 03:27:58 pm
Who am I to walk up and criticize him?

Exactly. If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: weazletoe on July 16, 2012, 06:17:27 pm
I feel for ya Major. I get the same thing in the sheet metal shop. Everyone knows how to do it better than the guy they hired to do it for them.  ::) I say, you don't like how I do it, then do it yourself.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: a10t2 on July 16, 2012, 07:31:59 pm
Rob Widmer's college roommate lives here in town. He said he had never seen more beer on tap in someone's living room until he met me. ;D
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: rbclay on July 16, 2012, 08:13:48 pm
the part of this that the original post stated- and mentioned again later- that no one has commented on is the key in my opinion... "that guy" HADN'T EVEN TRIED THE EFFIN' BEER!!! People are so quick to pass judgement and give advice on beers they haven't even tried. That just kills me. STFU, drink the beer, then discuss.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: nateo on July 16, 2012, 08:34:56 pm
"that guy" HADN'T EVEN TRIED THE EFFIN' BEER!!! People are so quick to pass judgement and give advice on beers they haven't even tried. That just kills me. STFU, drink the beer, then discuss.

On this website, every day, there are at least a hundred people who give advice on a hundred beers they haven't, nor will ever drink. If you want to cut down the number of people who can provide commentary on beers to only those who have tried said beers, we might as well shut down the whole AHA forums.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: punatic on July 16, 2012, 08:44:34 pm
On this website, every day, there are at least a hundred people who give advice on a hundred beers they haven't, nor will ever drink. If you want to cut down the number of people who can provide commentary on beers to only those who have tried said beers, we might as well shut down the whole AHA forums.

If we did that where would we go for comic relief?
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 16, 2012, 08:59:48 pm
"that guy" HADN'T EVEN TRIED THE EFFIN' BEER!!! People are so quick to pass judgement and give advice on beers they haven't even tried. That just kills me. STFU, drink the beer, then discuss.

On this website, every day, there are at least a hundred people who give advice on a hundred beers they haven't, nor will ever drink. If you want to cut down the number of people who can provide commentary on beers to only those who have tried said beers, we might as well shut down the whole AHA forums.

But we get to see the recipe and can make judgments based on our personal and collective experience. Big, big, BIG difference there. I can tell if you have  5 lbs of crystal malt in an extract beer and you are waisting all you amarillo hops at the 60 minute addition that you are headed the wrong way. ;)
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: tom on July 16, 2012, 09:25:39 pm
The beers of yours I've tried have been uniformly excellent.  Even if they weren't I'd be more inclined to say it isn't to my taste rather than try to tell you how to do it.
That's what you always say about my beers!
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: loopy on July 16, 2012, 09:40:01 pm
seems like something you see in every field. 

I have been doing what I do for nearly 20 years now, and I pretty much know it inside and out.  I get flyboys all the time offering their "opinions" about what they think will work or how they can save costs.  Well, whatever, opinions are like assholes.  Everyone has one. 

Dont let that guy get to you, there will always be folks that try to talk about things they do not know, and even try to talk to experts about things they do not know.  Roll it up and call it a day.  Have a beer and relax brother, you got successful people problems...  aka who cares what he thinks. 
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: tschmidlin on July 17, 2012, 12:09:08 am
"that guy" HADN'T EVEN TRIED THE EFFIN' BEER!!! People are so quick to pass judgement and give advice on beers they haven't even tried. That just kills me. STFU, drink the beer, then discuss.

On this website, every day, there are at least a hundred people who give advice on a hundred beers they haven't, nor will ever drink. If you want to cut down the number of people who can provide commentary on beers to only those who have tried said beers, we might as well shut down the whole AHA forums.

But we get to see the recipe and can make judgments based on our personal and collective experience. Big, big, BIG difference there. I can tell if you have  5 lbs of crystal malt in an extract beer and you are waisting all you amarillo hops at the 60 minute addition that you are headed the wrong way. ;)
Not to mention that people post stuff here ASKING for our opinions.

Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: nateo on July 17, 2012, 05:22:16 am
Not to mention that people post stuff here ASKING for our opinions.

If I take my product to a public event that I arrange, where I intend to talk to other humans about my product, why is it so unreasonable to assume that I want feedback about my product? What if the person hasn't tried your product but is familiar with other, similar products? Can they use their personal experience to inform their opinion about your product? It sounds like the answer here is 'no.'

It's not like this guy walked into the brewhouse and started giving orders, or even went up to the brewer and started talking shop at him. Since none of us (including the OP) actually know the person we're talking about, why is everyone assuming the worst about this person because of third-hand knowledge?

The crux of this, for me, is that I take umbrage with the idea that every beer is a beautiful snowflake, that requires intimate, personal experience to understand and appreciate, yet a human being can easily be reduced to a caricature without knowing anything about him, except a single thing he said with hardly any context.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: nateo on July 17, 2012, 06:06:31 am
I just want to tell one little story, and then I'll take all of you guys' advice and stop worrying about what other people think:

There is a guy down the road who owns another tackle store. He's an accomplished fly fisherman. He's one of those "I'm really good at what I do, and I don't care what anyone thinks about me" kind of guys. He's the kind of guy "that guy" can't stand. I'm not an expert, and I try to be respectful of all people, even if they're blowhards. Turns out "that guy" is my best customer. So while my gross has doubled over the last three years, the guy down the road can't keep product on the shelf and is going out of business. You don't have to kiss "that guy's" ass, but if you have nothing but disdain for him, he'll be able to tell. He'll take his business elsewhere, and you might be surprised at just how many of "that guy" are out there.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: jeffy on July 17, 2012, 06:11:30 am
I think we all lost track of the original post, so here it is:

""That guy" is the guy who showed up at our "Randall" event at a draft to go store yesterday. I wasn't there, I was at the brewery, brewing. But "That Guy" walks up to one of my partners and starts flexing his brewing muscles, asking questions about the beer, and then telling my partner why it wasn't the way he would do it. eg: I don't think an IIPA should ever be over 8% abv., and other assorted, sundry, observations and points."

I think it was not so much what "that guy" said but how he said it that made the partner take umbrage.  Personally I have very low tolerance for arrogance.

Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 17, 2012, 06:20:33 am
Nateo, are you being purposely obtuse??? Have you bothered to read any of my posts about the subject? I certainly never said I didn't want feedback from my product. I get plenty of it. If you had bothered to read or perhaps attempted to comprehend the gist of this thread I simply can't understand how you could be taking such a position.

I just don't get it. Obviously criticism is good, but 1) There's a time and a place for it and 2) Don't assume you can do it better, especially when you haven't brewed anything over a 10 gallon batch before and 3) TRY THE F'ING BEER FIRST!!!!

The whole point of this thread is the outright arrogance of some people who make too many assumptions based on their own delusional abilities. Just because you can brew a 10 gallon batch of excellent  SNPA clone doesn't mean you can walk into Sierra Nevada and rival the brewers there.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: weithman5 on July 17, 2012, 07:16:52 am
i didn't catch anywhere where "that guy" critiqued the brewing, the quality, the flavor etc.  merely a statistic associated with the brew. or even less the style. 

one doesn't need to be a professional painter to know that the white you were expecting isn't the red that came in the can. 

not everything sn brews is worth drinking
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 17, 2012, 07:43:04 am
i didn't catch anywhere where "that guy" critiqued the brewing, the quality, the flavor etc.  merely a statistic associated with the brew. or even less the style. 

one doesn't need to be a professional painter to know that the white you were expecting isn't the red that came in the can. 

not everything sn brews is worth drinking

1) a 1.083 IIPA is out of style guidelines??? It's hard for me to express his attitude over the internet, I recon. Condescension is rarely a heralded trate.

2) And did you read my description of the brew? It fits perfectly within the style!

3) And your point is? Just because you don't find a particular beer to be "worth drinking" doesn't mean the brewery doesn't have a good monetary reason for making that beer. It's not always all about what the beer snobs like to see in bottles, it's about what sells as often as not. Maybe you don't really get the full grasp of why Sierra Nevada sells the beers they do. Maybe your favorite IPA recipe would cause them to lose money.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: Joe Sr. on July 17, 2012, 08:22:40 am
Honestly, it seems like you're stressing about this way too much.

If you're this burnt up about it, and you weren't even there, you should really RDWHAHB.

Sounds like the guy was a pompous douche.  No reason to ruin your week over it.

I'm amazed that there's four pages of this.  Time to let it go.
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 17, 2012, 08:25:32 am
I'm not stressing, I just think it's a good conversation. ;) Am surprised to see such a range of feelings on the topic. I figured there would be a lot of talk on the topic when I posted it. Did not figure there would be as much defense of what I consider arrogance and assumptions.
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 17, 2012, 08:31:18 am
I should add I guess I can see how my adamant posting on the topic could be taken the wrong way. I'm just having a bit of fun conversing right now. But I'll back off.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: punatic on July 17, 2012, 09:03:17 am
Two words for ya major:

Tim Tebow   8)
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: denny on July 17, 2012, 09:09:11 am
The beers of yours I've tried have been uniformly excellent.  Even if they weren't I'd be more inclined to say it isn't to my taste rather than try to tell you how to do it.
That's what you always say about my beers!

 ;D
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: mihalybaci on July 17, 2012, 09:36:22 am
I've been keeping my eyes on this post for a few days, and it is definitely interesting to see the responses. To me, this whole idea can (should?) be broken down into two different kinds of criticisms, style and off-flavors. One of my favorite beer styles Strong Scotch ale, I just love 'em. I've had a lot of Scotch ales where I can definitely smell and taste peat-smoked malt, and I don't like it. Peat in Scotch whisky? Awesome, Laphroaig is outstanding, but I think peat smoke muddies the intense malt sweetness that I love so much in Scotch ale. Would I ever go up to a commercial brewer and say, "You know, you shouldn't add peated malt to your scotch ale"? Absolutely not, because I know my tastes don't suit everyone. On the other hand, if I could taste rubbing alcohol in a Scotch ale, that's a different question and maybe something needs to be said. But I still don't know if I would say anything because the pros who brewed probably have more experience tasting beer than I do, so maybe they already know something went wrong with their fermentation.

Under the right circumstances, "that guy" could be helpful in recognizing fatal flaws in beer that may have gone unnoticed, but "that guy" could also become a nuisance by describing "flaws" in a beer that simply reflect personal tastes. Stone's Arrogant Bastard proudly states "You will not like this beer", and I'm sure a lot of people don't, but the recipe isn't going to change.
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 17, 2012, 09:53:47 am
Two words for ya major:

Tim Tebow   8)

Now that is always a fun topic to disagree about. :P
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: bluesman on July 17, 2012, 09:56:59 am
Football is right around the corner.  Cardinals and Saints play on August 5th.  Almost time to start another football thread.  :)
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: denny on July 17, 2012, 09:57:50 am
Under the right circumstances, "that guy" could be helpful in recognizing fatal flaws in beer that may have gone unnoticed, but "that guy" could also become a nuisance by describing "flaws" in a beer that simply reflect personal tastes. Stone's Arrogant Bastard proudly states "You will not like this beer", and I'm sure a lot of people don't, but the recipe isn't going to change.

In order for "that guy" to be helpful, he'd have to actually taste the beer...which he didn't.  Given that, any comments he made had nothing to back them up.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: weithman5 on July 17, 2012, 01:44:52 pm
i didn't catch anywhere where "that guy" critiqued the brewing, the quality, the flavor etc.  merely a statistic associated with the brew. or even less the style. 

one doesn't need to be a professional painter to know that the white you were expecting isn't the red that came in the can. 

not everything sn brews is worth drinking

1) a 1.083 IIPA is out of style guidelines??? It's hard for me to express his attitude over the internet, I recon. Condescension is rarely a heralded trate.

2) And did you read my description of the brew? It fits perfectly within the style!

3) And your point is? Just because you don't find a particular beer to be "worth drinking" doesn't mean the brewery doesn't have a good monetary reason for making that beer. It's not always all about what the beer snobs like to see in bottles, it's about what sells as often as not. Maybe you don't really get the full grasp of why Sierra Nevada sells the beers they do. Maybe your favorite IPA recipe would cause them to lose money.

i agree with all this.  my point is that it just because he is not a pro doesn't mean he can't make valid observations.  in this case maybe not so valid.  i do agree that it is all in the way he may have presented this hence i would refer to "that guy" in this instance as a douche.  however if he had said, wow, nice take on your IIPA, but i wasn't expecting it to be x, y, or z in nature.  would it then have opened up a good conversation.   I guess overall i agree with you, but my thought is that it seems like we are out of bounds criticizing pros.  though i know this is not in your case because i have heard you time and again defend commercial beers Budweiser and (i think you have also defended) corona.  and i agree with you there.  i think this is the case mostly of how things are communicated.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: jmcamerlengo on July 18, 2012, 12:38:50 pm
Amen Major. I had a guy ask to come over and see my Brutus system, ask questions and such as he was looking to build his own.  He tasted a couple of my beers and here are some of his comments to a tee...Ill never forget because I spent the evening thinking...wow I never met a homebrewer like that before. What a pompous ass.

"Clean IPA very good, but I do this in mine and its better for it"
"Youre better than 99% of the brewers I know"...me:"oh thanks man" him: "Im the 1% better though"
"Ive been brewing for 7 years I know all there is to know about brewing, hes adjusting his water for this reason, but I know all there is to know about water and I dont do it for a reason."
to his gf: "THis is the second best pumpkin beer we've had huh sweety?"....his gf turns her head and takes another sip of mine and says "yeh"

Lol comical. Funny thing was, hes over in MY HOUSE asking me questions about MY SYSTEM, making these comments. Then when he left he said, maybe we can do a collaborative batch or something. Never understood people like this, if you know all there is know, then where is the fun in doing it. Get over yourself.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 18, 2012, 01:02:57 pm
Amen Major. I had a guy ask to come over and see my Brutus system, ask questions and such as he was looking to build his own.  He tasted a couple of my beers and here are some of his comments to a tee...Ill never forget because I spent the evening thinking...wow I never met a homebrewer like that before. What a pompous ass.

"Clean IPA very good, but I do this in mine and its better for it"
"Youre better than 99% of the brewers I know"...me:"oh thanks man" him: "Im the 1% better though"
"Ive been brewing for 7 years I know all there is to know about brewing, hes adjusting his water for this reason, but I know all there is to know about water and I dont do it for a reason."
to his gf: "THis is the second best pumpkin beer we've had huh sweety?"....his gf turns her head and takes another sip of mine and says "yeh"

Lol comical. Funny thing was, hes over in MY HOUSE asking me questions about MY SYSTEM, making these comments. Then when he left he said, maybe we can do a collaborative batch or something. Never understood people like this, if you know all there is know, then where is the fun in doing it. Get over yourself.

There is at least one guy like that in every area. We had one that I can see in my mind saying the same things.

At one point you could have said "Yeah, homebrewing is 99% asshole free".
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on July 18, 2012, 01:03:07 pm
Its the brewery's job to put their best foot forward. If they think I could be of help, they'll ask my opinion. Otherwise, I'll keep buying the beer if I like it, and vice versa if I don't.

I'm sure "that guy" is the same guy that tells you why his political opinions are superior to yours.

We call "that guy" a "douchebag" 'round these parts.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: jmcamerlengo on July 18, 2012, 01:07:14 pm
Amen Major. I had a guy ask to come over and see my Brutus system, ask questions and such as he was looking to build his own.  He tasted a couple of my beers and here are some of his comments to a tee...Ill never forget because I spent the evening thinking...wow I never met a homebrewer like that before. What a pompous ass.

"Clean IPA very good, but I do this in mine and its better for it"
"Youre better than 99% of the brewers I know"...me:"oh thanks man" him: "Im the 1% better though"
"Ive been brewing for 7 years I know all there is to know about brewing, hes adjusting his water for this reason, but I know all there is to know about water and I dont do it for a reason."
to his gf: "THis is the second best pumpkin beer we've had huh sweety?"....his gf turns her head and takes another sip of mine and says "yeh"

Lol comical. Funny thing was, hes over in MY HOUSE asking me questions about MY SYSTEM, making these comments. Then when he left he said, maybe we can do a collaborative batch or something. Never understood people like this, if you know all there is know, then where is the fun in doing it. Get over yourself.

There is at least one guy like that in every area. We had one that I can see in my mind saying the same things.

At one point you could have said "Yeah, homebrewing is 99% asshole free".

HAH! Wish I would've thought of it at the time.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: pinnah on July 18, 2012, 10:19:44 pm
This

If you are happy with yourself and satisfied that you are living by your own values, who gives a s*** how others judge you (or your work)?

And especially THIS:
That guy is out there and he's everywhere.  I just ignore him and don't worry about what he has to say.

Why get worked up over it?

"Probrewers"
(insert eyeroll)






 ;) Don't worry about that guy man. 
Have some confidence in your product and gimme a chuckle. 8)

Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 19, 2012, 06:47:36 am
I guess the only thing more annoying than over-critical homebrewers is all the Dr. Phils in the room (insert eyeroll).  ;)

I'm not wringing my hands about this nor have I lost any sleep or have any issues with my self worth. I have confidence in the beer and have had my share of criticism, some fair, some not. I don't think you guys who are on the Dr. Phil trip realize how many people I have interacted with over the two years I have been doing this. I sell beer all over the state of alabama and have met hudereds of people. I have just noticed that sometimes homebrewers can tend to be overly critical about other people's beer: both homebrewed and commercial.

I got way more worked up about Nateo's comments and his seeming implication that some guy who hadn't even tried the beer could be offering some hidden gem of wisdom that I had failed to grasp more than I did over anything else. ;)
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: weithman5 on July 19, 2012, 07:03:10 am
I have just noticed that sometimes homebrewers can tend to be overly critical about other people's beer: both homebrewed and commercial.


This is why i don't let other brewers drink my beer ;D (I am critical enough of the stuff i brew)
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: Kit B on July 19, 2012, 08:18:58 am
Amen Major. I had a guy ask to come over and see my Brutus system, ask questions and such as he was looking to build his own.  He tasted a couple of my beers and here are some of his comments to a tee...Ill never forget because I spent the evening thinking...wow I never met a homebrewer like that before. What a pompous ass.

"Clean IPA very good, but I do this in mine and its better for it"
"Youre better than 99% of the brewers I know"...me:"oh thanks man" him: "Im the 1% better though"
"Ive been brewing for 7 years I know all there is to know about brewing, hes adjusting his water for this reason, but I know all there is to know about water and I dont do it for a reason."
to his gf: "THis is the second best pumpkin beer we've had huh sweety?"....his gf turns her head and takes another sip of mine and says "yeh"

Lol comical. Funny thing was, hes over in MY HOUSE asking me questions about MY SYSTEM, making these comments. Then when he left he said, maybe we can do a collaborative batch or something. Never understood people like this, if you know all there is know, then where is the fun in doing it. Get over yourself.

Wow...Just, wow.
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 19, 2012, 02:14:43 pm
Yeah, even if he was kidding that is total douche material. In the graphic design business we have a lot of people like that. They won't pay you a legitimate compliment no matter what. They never become art directors, because they are so blinded by their ego that they can't see talent.
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: loopy on July 19, 2012, 06:30:45 pm
Amen Major. I had a guy ask to come over and see my Brutus system, ask questions and such as he was looking to build his own.  He tasted a couple of my beers and here are some of his comments to a tee...Ill never forget because I spent the evening thinking...wow I never met a homebrewer like that before. What a pompous ass.

"Clean IPA very good, but I do this in mine and its better for it"
"Youre better than 99% of the brewers I know"...me:"oh thanks man" him: "Im the 1% better though"
"Ive been brewing for 7 years I know all there is to know about brewing, hes adjusting his water for this reason, but I know all there is to know about water and I dont do it for a reason."
to his gf: "THis is the second best pumpkin beer we've had huh sweety?"....his gf turns her head and takes another sip of mine and says "yeh"

Lol comical. Funny thing was, hes over in MY HOUSE asking me questions about MY SYSTEM, making these comments. Then when he left he said, maybe we can do a collaborative batch or something. Never understood people like this, if you know all there is know, then where is the fun in doing it. Get over yourself.

You never asked him to come back and bring beer?  Hell he must of had beer of the gods.  You should get the same chance to critique his brew...  hell call him tonight and ask him to come back and bring samples.  Update the thread in a few days. 
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: punatic on July 19, 2012, 10:24:31 pm
I cannot believe some opinionated barfly has caused a thread to go on this long.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?  Who gives a s***? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k)
Title: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: majorvices on July 20, 2012, 06:22:18 am
I cannot believe some opinionated barfly has caused a thread to go on this long.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?  Who gives a s***? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k)

I knew the "Homebrewers (insert eyeroll) tag would catch some attention. :P
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: Joe Sr. on July 22, 2012, 11:45:51 am
some opinionated barfly

I thought that was the club I joined...
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: punatic on July 22, 2012, 01:22:56 pm
When I was a CFHBer I always thought we could have chosen a better logo.  But talk about truth in advertising...   ;)

(http://www.floridabeerfestivals.com/images/client_logos/cent_fl_hbc.gif)
Title: Re: "Homebrewers" (insert eyeroll)
Post by: jeffy on July 22, 2012, 02:13:01 pm
When I was a CFHBer I always thought we could have chosen a better logo.  But talk about truth in advertising...   ;)

(http://www.floridabeerfestivals.com/images/client_logos/cent_fl_hbc.gif)

Two opinionated construction workers in a hot tub?