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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: Alewyfe on July 19, 2012, 04:35:53 PM

Title: Recipe help please
Post by: Alewyfe on July 19, 2012, 04:35:53 PM
I will be brewing 25 gals of beer for an event. Ingredients provided are Gambrinus Pale malt, whatever specialty ingredients I want in reasonable quantities, and the following hops...Kent Golding, Summit and Glacier. American Ale Yeast or London Ale Yeast.

Another person has already committed to brewing an English style bitter for this event, so it needs to be different.

I have never used Summit hops. I've read a lot of negative comments from folks about them. The person providing the ingredients uses a fair amount of Summit and I'm not in love with many of his beers.

I'd love some thoughts on what some of you would brew constrained to these two yeasts and 3 hops varieties...

Thanks.





Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: erockrph on July 19, 2012, 05:28:36 PM
If it were me I'd go English IPA using the Summit for bittering and the Glacier and EKG's for flavor/aroma.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: Alewyfe on July 19, 2012, 05:44:03 PM
If it were me I'd go English IPA using the Summit for bittering and the Glacier and EKG's for flavor/aroma.


Oops, forgot to mention...no IPA, Cream Ale or Porter is to be made as those will be supplied by a comm'l brewer.
Thanks for your input though, that would have been my first choice too.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: weithman5 on July 19, 2012, 06:01:00 PM
roast some of the pale malt, or get some roast malt, use just enough of the summit to bitter a little and the other hops near the end.  shoot for medium to dark amber, lower ibu and use the london yeast and  i think you could get somewhere along the profile of a scottish, but with a more pronounced ending hop flavor, aroma.  something kind of unique and not provided by anyone else
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: denny on July 19, 2012, 06:10:10 PM
FWIW, I love Summit hops!
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: Alewyfe on July 19, 2012, 06:22:42 PM
FWIW, I love Summit hops!

Bitter and/or aroma?
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: Alewyfe on July 19, 2012, 06:25:09 PM
roast some of the pale malt, or get some roast malt, use just enough of the summit to bitter a little and the other hops near the end.  shoot for medium to dark amber, lower ibu and use the london yeast and  i think you could get somewhere along the profile of a scottish, but with a more pronounced ending hop flavor, aroma.  something kind of unique and not provided by anyone else

Good thinking Don....I was sort of pondering the possibility of a N. Eng. Brown too.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: denny on July 19, 2012, 08:54:51 PM
FWIW, I love Summit hops!

Bitter and/or aroma?

Both.  One of my all time favorite recipes is a past Big Brew recipe called "Griffin Spit" (it's in the wiki).  Uses all Summit hops, all at 20 min. or less.  Wonderful tangerine aroma/flavor.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: Alewyfe on July 19, 2012, 11:33:29 PM
FWIW, I love Summit hops!

Bitter and/or aroma?

Both.  One of my all time favorite recipes is a past Big Brew recipe called "Griffin Spit" (it's in the wiki).  Uses all Summit hops, all at 20 min. or less.  Wonderful tangerine aroma/flavor.

Hmmm. Thanks Denny.
Title: Recipe help please
Post by: majorvices on July 20, 2012, 04:19:20 AM
FWIW I hate summit hops. I have never had a beer made with them that I could enjoy. Total personal preference. I know folks who love them.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: Alewyfe on July 20, 2012, 05:50:42 AM
FWIW I hate summit hops. I have never had a beer made with them that I could enjoy. Total personal preference. I know folks who love them.

I haven't used them, but when I have had beers that do, I also have not liked them. I'm wondering if the objectionable flavors are a result of long boil times. Maybe the Griffin Spit would work because of the later additions. I'm thinking an experiment would be in order, but I'm not sure I want to put my name on a 25 gal.batch that I'm experimenting with. Might just try a small batch with some and see what happens. I've got time.
Title: Recipe help please
Post by: majorvices on July 20, 2012, 12:24:52 PM
I haven't used them either, 'cause the suck!
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: gordonstrong on July 20, 2012, 01:28:41 PM
Take the summit hops, then resell them to someone who likes garlic and cabbage and use the money to buy something you'd like to use.  Seriously.  Unless you like beer that tastes like feet, stay away from them.

I'd get some light Munich, and make an American Pale Ale with 90% pale, 10% munich, and featuring the glacier hops in a FWH & hop burst method.  Either yeast would work with that.  If you saw my talk at the NHC, use that recipe but swap glacier for galaxy.  Since there will be an IPA and a cream ale, go middle of the road with the pale ale so you have something for people who want something more bitter than a cream ale but less hoppy and/or alcoholic than an IPA.  Shoot for a 5% ABV beer, tops.  Maybe 35 IBUs.  If it's not different enough, add some medium crystal malts, lower the IBUs, and make an American Amber.

I like the English brown idea; Dark Mild would be good as well, as long as it was different enough from the commercial porter.  You might see what kind of character that has and stay away from similar flavors.  For example, if they're making a hoppy porter, you can make a malty brown and still be distinctly different.

An alternative would be an Irish Red-type beer.  Yes, you can use the English yeast for that.

In picking styles, I'd say you are more constrained by what has already been selected than by the ingredients.  I wouldn't want to make me-too beers when a spot in the style space has already been taken.  Shoot for something different.

You didn't say what kind of event; without knowing the crowd, it's hard to say what beers to make.  Don't want to go too aggressive/unusual for the masses.  In general, keep things flavorful and drinkable without going too high on the ABV.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: denny on July 20, 2012, 04:00:01 PM
Ya know, I keep hearing about how bad Summit hops are and the onion/garlic thing, and I've even tasted it in some beers.  But I get a great tangerine flavor and aroma from them.  Maybe I got a good batch.....
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: gmac on July 20, 2012, 04:02:58 PM
Unless you like beer that tastes like feet, stay away from them.

No wonder you write the style guidelines. :)
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: gordonstrong on July 20, 2012, 04:12:47 PM
Ya know, I keep hearing about how bad Summit hops are and the onion/garlic thing, and I've even tasted it in some beers.  But I get a great tangerine flavor and aroma from them.  Maybe I got a good batch.....

I've heard about the tangerine thing too, but I've never tasted it.  If someone has made one that has that character without the stankiness, I'd love to try it.  And I've tried them from people who really know how to brew.  If Nathan Smith gives me an IPA of his and I don't like it, then I know I don't like those hops.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: denny on July 20, 2012, 04:51:42 PM
Maybe he put his feet in it....

I've heard rumors that the character is crop dependent.  That certainly doesn't do us much good since you have to know if you're buying from a good crop.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 20, 2012, 05:01:34 PM
There is a sulfur compound, dimethyl trisulfide (DMTS), that is responsible for the Garlic and Onion. It will vary from year to year, and gets higher if the hops are harvested late.

I am not a fan of Summit. The DMTS will boil off, so those can be used for bittering without making a Garlic and Onioin beer.

Scroll to sulfur compounds in each of these.
http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/chemistry-of-beer-aging/
http://www.byo.com/stories/article/indices/18-brewing-science/853-hop-chemistry-homebrew-science
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: Alewyfe on July 20, 2012, 05:03:15 PM
This is an interesting situation.....opposing viewpoints from two people I hugely respect. As Gordon has nailed my
tasting experience with the "stanky feet" commentary and given it a  perfect descriptor, I'm going to steer clear of the Summit hops for this batch. I'll see if I can nab an ounce or two to do a little experiment and determine if Summit is the reason I am repulsed by some beers I have tasted that I believe are using it. Thanks for your input everyone......and Keith, am I to take away from this that you are NOT fond of Summit. ;)
Title: Recipe help please
Post by: majorvices on July 20, 2012, 05:09:07 PM
I have had only ever had commercial beers made with the hop. Never had one that I liked. You'd think if it was crop dependent I would have found one I liked. OTOH I have stopped trying those beers now. ;)
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: Alewyfe on July 20, 2012, 05:24:20 PM
Just as a matter of interest, what comm'l beers are readily available that use Summit hops? I'd like to try a couple.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: denny on July 20, 2012, 05:28:27 PM
Just as a matter of interest, what comm'l beers are readily available that use Summit hops? I'd like to try a couple.

The one I always think of is Green Flash IPA.  I've definitely gotten onion/garlic notes from that, as well as the tangerine.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 20, 2012, 05:42:38 PM
Just as a matter of interest, what comm'l beers are readily available that use Summit hops? I'd like to try a couple.
Gubna is one. Founders Devil Dancer was an onion bomb last year. They have changed to Apollo this year, no Onion.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: hopfenundmalz on July 20, 2012, 05:44:35 PM
This is an interesting situation.....opposing viewpoints from two people I hugely respect. As Gordon has nailed my
tasting experience with the "stanky feet" commentary and given it a  perfect descriptor, I'm going to steer clear of the Summit hops for this batch. I'll see if I can nab an ounce or two to do a little experiment and determine if Summit is the reason I am repulsed by some beers I have tasted that I believe are using it. Thanks for your input everyone......and Keith, am I to take away from this that you are NOT fond of Summit. ;)

Some guys in out club like to make the Griffon Spit. I get onion and garlic, they said they don't.

Might be like Simcoe - the wife gets cat pee, I get pine and fruit.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: hoser on July 20, 2012, 05:55:48 PM
Just as a matter of interest, what comm'l beers are readily available that use Summit hops? I'd like to try a couple.
The one I always think of is Green Flash IPA.  I've definitely gotten onion/garlic notes from that, as well as the tangerine.

Green Flash IPA is mostly columbus, simcoe, and amarillo (I had one two last night at a matter of fact). Not as good in the bottle as on draft.  More pine and fruit on draft.  More garlic and onion in the bottle :( The Green Flash IIPA uses summit, but I don't get as much garlic or onion as I thought I should.  Stone quit using summit do to the BO factor :P  I know Nathan Smith likes summit and uses it in his North Oakland and Dankness IPAs with good success.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: denny on July 20, 2012, 06:00:11 PM
I'm gearing up to brew sometime next week.  I think I'll use some Summit to verify my impressions.  Maybe even do Griffin Spit.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: gordonstrong on July 20, 2012, 09:32:13 PM
This is an interesting situation.....opposing viewpoints from two people I hugely respect.

You must be confused.  Like I said, Denny and I agree on everything.  ;)
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: erockrph on July 20, 2012, 10:31:54 PM
How convenient that today was 10% off day for me at Austin Homebrew supply :) I'm doing a series of 1 gallon single hop pale ales next month. Looks like I'll be adding Summit to the list.
Title: Recipe help please
Post by: majorvices on July 20, 2012, 10:54:47 PM
Gubna is the primary one I detest with Summit. That new Deviant Dale's is another - if it doesn't have summit in that beer that someone stuck their (censored) in it. Nasty!

I'm not a huge fan of the Oskar Blues beers anyway, but the Gubna is truly wretchable in my book. BLECK!!!!

If Green Flash IPA has summit in it it is very restrained because I taste centennial mostly in that one, maybe amarillo, too.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: ccfoo242 on July 26, 2012, 01:35:01 AM
Both.  One of my all time favorite recipes is a past Big Brew recipe called "Griffin Spit" (it's in the wiki).  Uses all Summit hops, all at 20 min. or less.  Wonderful tangerine aroma/flavor.

I, too, like Summit. I used it in an amber with hallertau mittelfrueh and loved the tangerine flavor. No hint of stinky feet.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: ccfoo242 on July 26, 2012, 01:39:33 AM
I'd like to add...people detect bitter things differently. I'm not a "bitter taster" (I've tested with those paper test strips plus my DNA shows that I'm likely not a bitter taster) but I wonder if there's something about Summit that some people detect that I can't. My wife isn't supposed to be a bitter taster either but when she tried the test strips she was able to taste something when I couldn't.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: aviking427 on July 26, 2012, 02:36:06 AM
I've used Summit and actually like it. There are a few hops that if you use too much, you get onion, or cat piss or some nasty flavors. Summit is one. Use it sparingly, don't over due it and I think it can add some wonderful flavors and aromas. As a matter of fact, try using it as an aroma hop at knockout or a flavor hop at 15. Just don't go throwing in half a pound per 5 gallons of it. Think of cooking. Some spices give a lot with a little and have amazing flavors but if you use too much of it, it kills the meal. Not all hops should or can be used in the same amounts as others.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: gordonstrong on July 26, 2012, 12:28:39 PM
So Summit is the saffron of the hop world?

I'd love to see someone do the experiment to determine the threshold of stankiness, or otherwise isolate that character.  Or if it is taster-dependent on some genetic basis.  I know people who say green bell peppers taste like gasoline and others who say cilantro tastes like soap.  So I'm willing to accept that some people will sense things differently, perhaps due to blind spots for certain chemicals.  I know the phenomenon exists; I just don't know if that's what's at play here, or if it's a simple concentration of chemical issue.

I like tangerines; I would use a hop that had that character.  Sweaty socks?  Not so much.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: ccfoo242 on July 26, 2012, 12:34:21 PM
I like tangerines; I would use a hop that had that character.  Sweaty socks?  Not so much.

I guess the takeaway from this is if some people don't taste it the way others do, then better to not use it if you're looking to compete with it or sell it.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: denny on July 26, 2012, 04:23:19 PM
I'm gearing up to brew in the next few days and I think I'll just do the Griffin Spit recipe.  We'll see....
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on July 26, 2012, 06:33:31 PM
I guess the takeaway from this is if some people don't taste it the way others do, then better to not use it if you're looking to compete with it or sell it.

The beauty of being a homebrewer. You don't have to do either and just keep it all to yourself.

BTW I get the savory/onion flavor with Nelson Sauvin hops. Thing is, in small quantities its nice! I just ease up on them during dryhopping.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: aviking427 on July 28, 2012, 09:22:45 PM
So Summit is the saffron of the hop world?

Sorry, just getting to this. Yes, in my personal opinion summit and a few others are just like saffron, great for adding flavor but don't use much. I'm sure to catch hell for this but I put citra in this same category.








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Title: Recipe help please
Post by: denny on July 29, 2012, 03:46:30 PM
I agree on the Citra....I just haven't been able to develop a taste for them.

I brewed an all late hop Summit IPA yesterday just to see what happens.  I'll dry hop it with another oz. of Summit.  I'll report in a few weeks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Title: Recipe help please
Post by: majorvices on July 29, 2012, 05:40:27 PM
i am a well known citra hater. ;) Actually, it can be pleasant when used with a light hand. But I have a pound in my freezer that has been there unopened all year and I just can bring myself to using it.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: erockrph on July 30, 2012, 03:05:12 AM
i am a well known citra hater. ;) Actually, it can be pleasant when used with a light hand. But I have a pound in my freezer that has been there unopened all year and I just can bring myself to using it.

Well, you couldn't possibly use up a whole pound within a reasonable time frame if you feel the need to use a light hand with them. I will gladly take some off your hands if you'd like.  ;)

But seriously, I love Citra but I don't think I'd ever use it as the sole aroma/flavor hop in a beer. It's killer in combination with Amarillo though. Of course, everything is killer in combination with Amarillo.
Title: Re: Recipe help please
Post by: aviking427 on January 10, 2013, 01:25:46 AM
I agree on the Citra....I just haven't been able to develop a taste for them.

I brewed an all late hop Summit IPA yesterday just to see what happens.  I'll dry hop it with another oz. of Summit.  I'll report in a few weeks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Hey Denny, I'm going to brew with summit this weekend and remembered this past conversation. How did the all late hop addition turn out? Its been a while so if you don't remember no worries.