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General Category => Extract/Partial Mash Brewing => Topic started by: slickdaddy420 on July 31, 2012, 03:43:07 PM

Title: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: slickdaddy420 on July 31, 2012, 03:43:07 PM
Simple question.


Besides contamination..... is there any other negative reason of adding a 10lb of ice to the 3gallon boiling wort to get it to pitching temps in under 5 minutes?
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: Jimmy K on July 31, 2012, 04:09:30 PM
Just that it probably won't get as cool as you think. 3 gallons of water at 212F mixed with 2 gallons (16lbs) of ice at 32F would give you five gallons around 140F. Maybe a little cooler due to melting ice absorbing a lot of energy, but that's pretty high above pitching temps.  Might work well inconjuction with an icebath.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: slickdaddy420 on July 31, 2012, 04:40:03 PM
I do put it in water with some ice, but I would not call it an ice bath. My water is not very cold being in south FL. With the 10lb bag of ice, I get go from 200s to the 60s in about 5-10 minutes. I spray the unopened bag with StarSan and use a lid for the pot. I was just making sure there is not a weird chemical reaction from being too fast.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: Jimmy K on July 31, 2012, 04:42:05 PM
It does work? I guess my math was WAY off. I don't know any other reason not to.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: morticaixavier on July 31, 2012, 04:42:36 PM
I started out with Alton Browns homebrew episode and he uses ice as his top up water so I did to. If you buy bagged ice it was sent through a UV sterilizer before freezing so contamination is not much of an issue. and 2 gallons of ice will indeed chill the wort down quickly. I used to put ice in the funnel and drain the wort through it, top up the ice as it melts. worked well.

**EDIT** the internet is so cool. looks like 3 parts 200* liquid + 2 parts 32* ice results in 75* liquid
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: bluesman on July 31, 2012, 04:44:44 PM
I would use it IF you know that it comes from a reputable source.  Water or ice CAN be a source of contamination and/or off flavors in the finished beer. I've used filtered tap water and spring water to top up the fermenter on many beers with no issues.  I happen to have decent tap water and I make sure the chlorine has been stripped out before use.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: Jimmy K on July 31, 2012, 04:45:41 PM
I started out with Alton Browns homebrew episode and he uses ice as his top up water so I did to. If you buy bagged ice it was sent through a UV sterilizer before freezing so contamination is not much of an issue. and 2 gallons of ice will indeed chill the wort down quickly. I used to put ice in the funnel and drain the wort through it, top up the ice as it melts. worked well.

I was wondering that. I figured with food safety these days that bagged ice would have to be treated somehow. If it they use chlorinated water though, bad juju.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: morticaixavier on July 31, 2012, 04:47:03 PM
I started out with Alton Browns homebrew episode and he uses ice as his top up water so I did to. If you buy bagged ice it was sent through a UV sterilizer before freezing so contamination is not much of an issue. and 2 gallons of ice will indeed chill the wort down quickly. I used to put ice in the funnel and drain the wort through it, top up the ice as it melts. worked well.

I was wondering that. I figured with food safety these days that bagged ice would have to be treated somehow. If it they use chlorinated water though, bad juju.

good point. you would want to check that out
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: weithman5 on July 31, 2012, 04:52:19 PM
It does work? I guess my math was WAY off. I don't know any other reason not to.

your math was correct if it was water at 32 degrees and not ice. ice absorbs has a specific heat that is absorbed in going from ice at 32 to water at 32.  in addition the ice is probably colder than 32.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: Jimmy K on July 31, 2012, 04:54:21 PM
It does work? I guess my math was WAY off. I don't know any other reason not to.

your math was correct if it was water at 32 degrees and not ice. ice absorbs has a specific heat that is absorbed in going from ice at 32 to water at 32.  in addition the ice is probably colder than 32.

I knew that, I just didn't realize it would absorb that much heat.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: slickdaddy420 on July 31, 2012, 04:56:48 PM
thanks for the replies. I figured it was ok if I was a gambling man with contamination. I get my ice from the Publix grocery store ice freezer. I never felt it tasted chlorinated, but I never taste tested it for off flavors. :)

Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: erockrph on July 31, 2012, 05:19:28 PM
One point of note - ice forms at 32 degrees F, but it doesn't stay there. The usual temp for most home freezers is 0F, so you can expect your ice to be closer to that temp range.

My practice is to use a water bath in my sink (I leave the water running and let it flow out and drain into the second basin) until my wort gets to around 100-120F, then drain the water and make an ice water bath. Once the wort gets to about 80 or so I add a frozen 20-ounce water bottle that has been sprayed down with Star-San right into the brew kettle. Each of these steps moves pretty quick, and I don't end up wasting any ice to cool something that could have been done just as easily with a water bath.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: deepsouth on July 31, 2012, 05:55:58 PM
i fell your pain bro (original poster).  i took the temp of the water coming out of my hose solidly for over 5 minutes and it "got down" to 102.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: slickdaddy420 on July 31, 2012, 06:37:59 PM
i fell your pain bro (original poster).  i took the temp of the water coming out of my hose solidly for over 5 minutes and it "got down" to 102.


HAHA exactly. I think it would be almost pointless to get an Immersion Chiller.....
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: morticaixavier on July 31, 2012, 07:16:24 PM
One point of note - ice forms at 32 degrees F, but it doesn't stay there. The usual temp for most home freezers is 0F, so you can expect your ice to be closer to that temp range.

My practice is to use a water bath in my sink (I leave the water running and let it flow out and drain into the second basin) until my wort gets to around 100-120F, then drain the water and make an ice water bath. Once the wort gets to about 80 or so I add a frozen 20-ounce water bottle that has been sprayed down with Star-San right into the brew kettle. Each of these steps moves pretty quick, and I don't end up wasting any ice to cool something that could have been done just as easily with a water bath.

given that, and this neat little online calculator, 3 parts by weight water at 200 + 2 parts by weight of ice at 0 = 5 parts water at 62

**EDIT** Sorry forgot the link http://www.onlineconversion.com/mixing_water.htm (http://www.onlineconversion.com/mixing_water.htm)
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: corkybstewart on July 31, 2012, 09:48:55 PM
i fell your pain bro (original poster).  i took the temp of the water coming out of my hose solidly for over 5 minutes and it "got down" to 102.


HAHA exactly. I think it would be almost pointless to get an Immersion Chiller.....
Not at all.  With a small pump you could take water from an ice bath and pump it through an immersion chiller.  With enough ice and time you could even get your wort down to lager temps.
Title: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: majorvices on August 01, 2012, 11:13:11 AM
I think it is probably OK to do it for a while, just realize it is not the best solution, and you can by all the parts at a hardware store to make an immersion chiller for about $45 or less, and it would take you 5 min. to put it together.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: davidgzach on August 13, 2012, 07:16:28 PM
i fell your pain bro (original poster).  i took the temp of the water coming out of my hose solidly for over 5 minutes and it "got down" to 102.


HAHA exactly. I think it would be almost pointless to get an Immersion Chiller.....
Not at all.  With a small pump you could take water from an ice bath and pump it through an immersion chiller.  With enough ice and time you could even get your wort down to lager temps.

+1.  This is my next project so I can get my 10G lager brews down to pitching temps without having to put it in the chest freezer overnight.....

Dave
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: skrag6713 on August 13, 2012, 09:23:27 PM
so if i wanted to cut down on my water use, i could just fill some plastic bottles with water, freeze them, sanitize them, and drop them in my wort instead of an IC?  hell, for that matter would i even need to sanitize them?  then just refreeze them when i was done?
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: euge on August 13, 2012, 09:51:51 PM
i fell your pain bro (original poster).  i took the temp of the water coming out of my hose solidly for over 5 minutes and it "got down" to 102.


HAHA exactly. I think it would be almost pointless to get an Immersion Chiller.....
Not at all.  With a small pump you could take water from an ice bath and pump it through an immersion chiller.  With enough ice and time you could even get your wort down to lager temps.

+1.  This is my next project so I can get my 10G lager brews down to pitching temps without having to put it in the chest freezer overnight.....

Dave

I freeze up ten 20oz soda bottles. Sanitize with starsan right before dropping them in the wort when it hits 90*. My tap water is 88* right now so the IC does the hard part. The bottles drop 6 gallons down to less than 55* fairly quickly. That's the easy part. ;D

Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: morticaixavier on August 13, 2012, 09:54:01 PM
so if i wanted to cut down on my water use, i could just fill some plastic bottles with water, freeze them, sanitize them, and drop them in my wort instead of an IC?  hell, for that matter would i even need to sanitize them?  then just refreeze them when i was done?

It's going to be slow that way. I would sanitize them as they will be in contact with wort below 180* but it's worth a try. it's not going to be as quick as using store bought pre-sterilized ice and a partial boil but...

By the way, a friend of mine brewed his first batch (partial mash, partial boil) and we used ice to top up and chill and it went from the kettle (near 200*) to the fermenter with ice and dropped to 55* nearly instantly
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: bluefoxicy on August 18, 2012, 06:54:50 PM
It does work? I guess my math was WAY off. I don't know any other reason not to.

your math was correct if it was water at 32 degrees and not ice. ice absorbs has a specific heat that is absorbed in going from ice at 32 to water at 32.  in addition the ice is probably colder than 32.

It takes 1 calorie to raise 1 liter of water 1 degree Celsius.

It takes 80 calories to state change ice from solid to liquid form without changing its temperature at all.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: punatic on August 18, 2012, 07:03:32 PM

It takes 1 calorie to raise 1 liter of water 1 degree Celsius.


I only wish.  That would be awesome.  It takes 1 calorie to raise 1 gram of pure water 1 degree C.
1 gram of pure water in liquid phase is 1mL in volume (at 4 degrees C)
Which means it takes 1000 calories to raise 1L (1000mL) of water 1 degree C.

1000 calories = 1 kilocalorie 
Mayhap you meant it takes 1kcal to raise 1L of water 1 degree C?

But hey, I like turtles!
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: bluefoxicy on August 18, 2012, 07:44:36 PM
I only wish.  That would be awesome.  It takes 1 calorie to raise 1 gram of pure water 1 degree C.
1 gram of pure water in liquid phase is 1mL in volume (at 4 degrees C)
Which means it takes 1000 calories to raise 1L (1000mL) of water 1 degree C.

1000 calories = 1 kilocalorie 
Mayhap you meant it takes 1kcal to raise 1L of water 1 degree C?

But hey, I like turtles!

Yes 1kcal.  My bad.  The 1 calorie per liter thing probably came from a bad source that confused food calories (=kcal) with real calories.  Probably Bill Nye.

In any case it takes 80 times as much energy just to state change.  So to get from 0C ice to 0C water you need to throw enough energy in to get from 0C water to 80C water.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: punatic on August 18, 2012, 09:15:02 PM
I just rode my bike 12.5 miles.  The computer says I burned 290 calories (kcal ["food calories"]) doing so.  I burned enough energy during my ride to turn 402 grams of ice into steam.

Latent heat of fusion = 80cal/g
0C -> 100C = 100cal/g
Latent heat of vaporization = 542cal/g

Guess I wouldn't make too good of a steam engine would I?

But, I did see a honu (sea turtle) on my ride.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: Jimmy K on August 19, 2012, 03:21:44 PM
I only wish.  That would be awesome.  It takes 1 calorie to raise 1 gram of pure water 1 degree C.
1 gram of pure water in liquid phase is 1mL in volume (at 4 degrees C)
Which means it takes 1000 calories to raise 1L (1000mL) of water 1 degree C.

1000 calories = 1 kilocalorie 
Mayhap you meant it takes 1kcal to raise 1L of water 1 degree C?

But hey, I like turtles!

Yes 1kcal.  My bad.  The 1 calorie per liter thing probably came from a bad source that confused food calories (=kcal) with real calories.  Probably Bill Nye.

In any case it takes 80 times as much energy just to state change.  So to get from 0C ice to 0C water you need to throw enough energy in to get from 0C water to 80C water.

You weren't completely wrong - 1 Calorie = 1000 calories (note capitalization).  The Calorie is the unit used in nutrition. Capitalization is not always followed though, leading to confusion.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: bluefoxicy on August 19, 2012, 04:53:30 PM

You weren't completely wrong - 1 Calorie = 1000 calories (note capitalization).  The Calorie is the unit used in nutrition. Capitalization is not always followed though, leading to confusion.

This is stupid.  We should relabel everything to say kcal instead of cal.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: Jimmy K on August 19, 2012, 08:22:54 PM

You weren't completely wrong - 1 Calorie = 1000 calories (note capitalization).  The Calorie is the unit used in nutrition. Capitalization is not always followed though, leading to confusion.

This is stupid.  We should relabel everything to say kcal instead of cal.

Agreed
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: punatic on August 19, 2012, 11:00:17 PM
This is stupid.  We should relabel everything to say kcal instead of cal.

That would be a tonne of work!   8)
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: SecondRow_Sean on August 20, 2012, 12:18:31 PM
This is stupid.  We should relabel everything to say kcal instead of cal.

That would be a tonne of work!   8)

I bet if you were amp'd up, you'd get it done.
Title: Re: Using Ice to cool wort?
Post by: brewmaster_cannon on September 02, 2012, 07:52:33 PM
I wouldn't necessarily trust that store bought ice is "sterile" or even sanitary.  Why buy that when you can sanitize containers and freeze your own pre-boiled water that you know for sure is sanitary.  Palmer even says in his book to be wary of store bought ice.  those bags aren't very thick/strong and often have tiny rips in them.  So use them at your own risk, I for one won't be doing that any time soon.

A way to save water and cool faster using a coil chiller, is to have two coils attached in series. the water goes through the first one which is in an ice bath and then the second in the wort.  Also a  whirlpool chiller like the one that Jamil Zainasheff designed would also help greatly.