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General Category => Extract/Partial Mash Brewing => Topic started by: Wesbrau on August 18, 2012, 04:17:09 PM

Title: Old Extract?
Post by: Wesbrau on August 18, 2012, 04:17:09 PM
Recently, I brewed an extract batch using LME (pale/gold and munich).  When we opened up the extract, both the pale and the munich LME had a very noticeable molasses-like aroma too it and was a lot darker than we anticipated.  We were shooting for a very light colored pale ale and wound up with something very red.  The molasses/syrupy character also appears in the finished beer.  Since switching to all grain brewing, I haven't used extract for many years and I have long since forgotten what extract should smell like.  Does this sound like it was old extract?  Thanks very much,

Wes
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: denny on August 18, 2012, 04:35:37 PM
It sounds like it to me.  That's why I use DME when I use extract.
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: davidgzach on August 20, 2012, 12:43:05 PM
It sounds like it to me.  That's why I use DME when I use extract.

+1
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: Joe Sr. on August 20, 2012, 05:10:10 PM
Regardless of the age, I find that LME always results in a darker beer than I had intended (unless it was to be a dark beer, regardless).

I used pale ale LME recently, and my tripel looks like a dubbel.
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: euge on August 20, 2012, 05:28:05 PM
Regardless of the age, I find that LME always results in a darker beer than I had intended (unless it was to be a dark beer, regardless).

I used pale ale LME recently, and my tripel looks like a dubbel.

I find this to be the case as well.
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: Wesbrau on August 20, 2012, 05:47:21 PM
Thanks, guys.  I can handle the color.  But the stale, molasses/syrup thing is no good.  Funny thing, I bought it from a place that touts their high turnover on extract, ensuring that they provide the freshest.  Switching to DME for any future extract beers. 
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: Joe Sr. on August 20, 2012, 06:30:29 PM
I recall someone on TechTalk years ago (I want to say it was John Blichmann) had done some tests using old cans of extract.

My recollection is that over pitching the yeast for some reason reduced the off flavors from stale extract.

I could probably search my archives for it, but I'm pretty certain my recollection is correct.

Not that I am recommending using old extract, but if you need to you can minimize the badness.
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: denny on August 20, 2012, 06:34:54 PM
I recall someone on TechTalk years ago (I want to say it was John Blichmann) had done some tests using old cans of extract.

My recollection is that over pitching the yeast for some reason reduced the off flavors from stale extract.

I could probably search my archives for it, but I'm pretty certain my recollection is correct.

Not that I am recommending using old extract, but if you need to you can minimize the badness.

Pretty sure it was Dan Listermann.
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: Joe Sr. on August 20, 2012, 06:51:22 PM
I think you are correct.  Both end in -mann, so I was kinda close.
Title: Old Extract?
Post by: andrew000141 on August 26, 2012, 04:26:45 AM
DME is always the better choice. I don't know about your local homebrew shop but at mine theyre the same price so if I follow a recipe with LME then I just switch it to DME 3.3 lme = 3lbs DME the .3 is all water weight
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: Wesbrau on August 27, 2012, 07:14:29 AM
Did the same recipe today substituting DME for the LME and what a difference that made.  My pale ale is actually pale, instead of the red ale the LME gave me.  Smelled much more like my all grain batches, too.  Thanks, everyone, for the tip.

By the way, on the last beer I made with the LME, the molasses character in the LME carried over into the finished beer.  Way too thick, sweet and with a flavor and aroma of molasses/syrup.  Dumper batch.  Not doing LME again.
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: csu007 on August 27, 2012, 09:04:59 AM
I would like to switch to DME but my go LHBS charges double for DME vs LME

3lbs LME- $7.50, 3lbs DME $15
Title: Old Extract?
Post by: andrew000141 on August 27, 2012, 09:46:10 AM
Yes unfortunately some (actually most i believe) brew shops charge more for DME. I'm sure if you really want to cut out the LME then you can find some cheap DME online
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: Jimmy K on August 27, 2012, 12:30:46 PM
I recall someone on TechTalk years ago (I want to say it was John Blichmann) had done some tests using old cans of extract.

My recollection is that over pitching the yeast for some reason reduced the off flavors from stale extract.

I'd guess that the DME oxidation/aging causes the wort to underattenuate and pitching plenty of yeast helps bump the attenuation back up. It would also minimize esters, etc which might exagerate mollasses/caramel flavors.
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: Kaiser on August 27, 2012, 01:26:21 PM
pitching lots of yeast is an interesting idea. It's possible that the yeast adsorbs some of the flavors.

I saw something similar in this patent for low calorie beer: http://www.google.com/patents?id=InU8AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

One of the methods in this patent is a low pitching rate such that the extended yeast growth absorbs unwanted flavors:

Quote
However, unlike a conventional beer fermentation process, the cooled wort is oxygenated using substantially pure oxygen, and the Brewer's yeast is added at a relatively low pitching rate, typically, and preferably in the range of about 30 to 60 grams pressed yeast per 100 liters wort, and preferably about 45 grams pressed yeast per 100 liters wort. The normal pitching rate is about 170 grams pressed (wet) yeast per 100 liters of wort. This is a departure from prior art brewing techniques and is unexpected since prior art attempts to produce beer at relatively low pitching rates using conventional worts and normal aeration reportedly do not produce satisfactory fermentation results. (See B. H. Kirsop, The Brewer's Digest, July 1978, page 28 to 32). Adding the brewer's yeast at such a low pitching rate to oxygenated wort permits the yeast to absorb substantially all harsh and grainy flavors normally present in the wort.

Kai
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: csu007 on August 27, 2012, 09:38:31 PM
Yes unfortunately some (actually most i believe) brew shops charge more for DME. I'm sure if you really want to cut out the LME then you can find some cheap DME online

I noticed that northern brewer charges about $11 for both LME and DME for 3lbs. but i think by the time i ship it here it would be the same price as my LHBS. For now i will stick with LME and deal with darker beers until i can progress to all-grain some day
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: denny on August 27, 2012, 09:42:16 PM
Doesn't DME work out to be cheaper per gravity point because there's no water in it?
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: Joe Sr. on August 27, 2012, 09:47:18 PM
Doesn't DME work out to be cheaper per gravity point because there's no water in it?

That's how it has always worked out for me.  But I understand pricing varies widely.

I use LOTS of DME and by far the most economical purchase I can make is a 50lb bag of DME from Northern Brewer.  But I live in the mid-west, so shipping isn't too bad.

Shipping for LME is also more per gravity point...

Elsewhere, I'm sure you want to get it closer to home.

I try to buy at the LHBS, but $1 or more per lb of extract adds up.
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: euge on August 28, 2012, 02:04:12 PM
Curious. I always believed DME to be a better deal, but at my LHBS DME is $4.99/# and LME is $2.50/#. So to make a 1.045 six gallon batch it will cost $29.94 with DME (6#) and $18.75 with LME (7.5#).
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: diybrewing on August 28, 2012, 05:54:13 PM
In our shop we go through around 700 lbs of LME a month and we have no darkening or molasses at all. One of the things you also have to pay attention to is where the LME is coming from. We use Briess currently although we are switching to United Canadian. We get Briess that has been manufactured less than a month old. So for us from manufacturing date to being sold to you is less than 2 months. If we were to buy Muntons, the best case scenario we could get was most likely 6 months old. We also only sell 3 types of LME ( Pilsen or extra light, Wheat, and Munich). Our Munich and wheat sell less so we buy smaller containers of them so that is still stays fresh.
DME costs close to twice as much wholesale and is a pain to work with. 
Also the ration LME to DME is 6 lbs LME = 4.92 lbs DME.
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: Wesbrau on August 30, 2012, 08:52:00 PM
The version I re-brewed with DME has finished active fermentation.  Drew a sample last night and this beer has none of the problems I noted in the prior LME beer. 

The LME I used in the prior batch was from Morebeer, which I'm pretty sure is from Briess.  MB touts their turnover and so I was surprised to get old extract. 
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: diybrewing on August 31, 2012, 04:25:53 AM
Wes MB certainly does turn over their LME in that manner.
I am 90% positive More beer does not Briess use but has a private label malt extract maker. Nothing against them at all.
Also when did you put your LME in the beer? Adding LME at the end of the boil will have huge positive effects on your beer. We are currently validating in store putting LME in after the boil. Since you only need to sanitize it, our theory is that if we keep it above 160F for 15 minutes we will be fine. So far we have had luck at keeping LME above 180 for 30 minutes with no problem. Just some food for thought.
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: Wesbrau on August 31, 2012, 04:47:10 AM
Also when did you put your LME in the beer? Adding LME at the end of the boil will have huge positive effects on your beer. We are currently validating in store putting LME in after the boil. Since you only need to sanitize it, our theory is that if we keep it above 160F for 15 minutes we will be fine. So far we have had luck at keeping LME above 180 for 30 minutes with no problem. Just some food for thought.

I may have to try that.  For both batches, the one with the old LME and the subsequent one with the DME, we added the extract after removing the steeping grains (at about 160F).  The heat was off and we stirred them in well before ramping up to boiling.  The DME batch smelled like normal all grain wort, whereas the LME batch had that molasses aroma and was much darker than expected. 

Not trying to knock Morebeer.  I've been very pleased with them over the years.  Just a bad batch of extract, I guess.
Title: Re: Old Extract?
Post by: Joe Sr. on August 31, 2012, 02:46:04 PM
Maybe the extract was mis-labeled?  Could it have been amber or dark instead of pale?

Late addition of extract helps to reduce the darkening and carmelization from the boil.  You need some fermentables at the start, or else your just boiling your hops in water, but you can add the bulk of it way at the end.

I'm able to produce straw-colored beer using Breiss Pilsen DME and a mini-mash/partial mash/whatever you want to call it.