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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: bluesman on February 15, 2010, 11:08:57 PM

Title: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: bluesman on February 15, 2010, 11:08:57 PM
I'm planning to brew this one up in the next week or so. What do you think? Good, bad or ugly... 8)

Louis the Alt
Dusseldorf Altbier

 
Type: All Grain
Date: 2/27/2010
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Brewer: Bluesman
Boil Size: 6.62 gal Asst Brewer:  
Boil Time: 90 min  Equipment: My Equipment  
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0  Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
Taste Notes:  
  
Ingredients
 
Amount Item Type % or IBU
7.50 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 68.93 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.19 %
1.00 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 9.19 %
0.75 lb Caramunich Malt 2 (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.89 %
0.50 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 4.60 %
0.13 lb Carafa I (319.0 SRM) Grain 1.19 %
0.75 oz Magnum [14.20 %] (60 min) Hops 31.3 IBU
2.00 oz Hallertauer [4.00 %] (20 min) Hops 14.2 IBU
1.00 oz Tettnanger [4.90 %] (10 min) Hops 5.2 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc  
5.50 gal Poland Spring (R) Water  
1 Pkgs European Ale (White Labs #WLP011) [Starter 1730 ml] Yeast-Ale  

Beer Profile
 
Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.40 %  
Bitterness: 50.8 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 12.6 SRM Color: Color  
 
Mash Profile
 
Mash Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Total Grain Weight: 10.88 lb
Sparge Water: 0.78 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
  
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 13.60 qt of water at 160.2 F 149.0 F
10 min Sparge Add 14.98 qt of water at 187.8 F 168.0 F

Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains (about 95% of the time).
Carbonation and Storage
 
Carbonation Type: Kegged (Forced CO2) Volumes of CO2: 2.4
Title: Re: Recipe check - Dusseldorf Altbier
Post by: pjj2ba on February 16, 2010, 03:17:29 AM
I'd lose the caramunich and melanoidin and substitute them with 1.25 lbs more of munich.  I'd also cut your 20 min. hop addition in half.  Maybe bump up the Magnum to keep the same IBUs.  To be authentic, you want only the slightest hints of hop flavor, and aroma - if any at all.
Title: Re: Recipe check - Dusseldorf Altbier
Post by: bluesman on February 18, 2010, 07:44:09 PM
According to the style guidelines, not that I'm a style nazi or anything, it specifies moderate to low noble hop flavor. I wonder if there is a way to assign an IBU% to the bitterness of a specific style of ale. For instance, "low to moderate" hop flavor could be 25%+or- of the total IBU's in the beer.

If one were to take the top ten examples from a given style and attribute average IBU's for bitterness, flavor and aroma. I don't think this data has been compiled in such a format but I believe it would be useful to know when creating recipes for a specific style of beer.
Title: Re: Recipe check - Dusseldorf Altbier
Post by: redbeerman on February 18, 2010, 07:52:16 PM
Ron, have you tried a Zum Uerige alt yet?  That will give you an idea of what the flavor profile is like.  To my recollection, the bitterness is quite high and it has a very clean crisp finish.  It does have a malty flavor, but no sweet.  I don't remember any hop flavor or aroma.
Title: Re: Recipe check - Dusseldorf Altbier
Post by: Hokerer on February 18, 2010, 08:00:34 PM
If one were to take the top ten examples from a given style and attribute average IBU's for bitterness, flavor and aroma. I don't think this data has been compiled in such a format but I believe it would be useful to know when creating recipes for a specific style of beer.

That would be pretty difficult since, often times (flameout or dry hop) the aroma additions add 0 IBU's.
Title: Re: Recipe check - Dusseldorf Altbier
Post by: denny on February 18, 2010, 08:58:00 PM
Here's a recipe fro Zum Uerige, right from the brewmaster....

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/40327/42592.html
Title: Re: Recipe check - Dusseldorf Altbier
Post by: bluesman on February 18, 2010, 09:16:30 PM
Here's a recipe fro Zum Uerige, right from the brewmaster....

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/40327/42592.html

Thanks for that one Denny.
Title: Re: Recipe check - Dusseldorf Altbier
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 18, 2010, 11:57:18 PM
That is what I did today.  I have lost 5 or 6 afternoons at Zum Uerige, 0.25 liters at a time.

What Denny posted is what I remember the guy who was shoveling grain told me as I was on my way back from the mens room (the mash dumps to the floor right by there).  Pils, Cara-maltz, farbemaltz (color malt).  Pearle, Hallertau, Spalt.  I did the 4 step mash today.

I used Kai's water profile.  I have come 3/4's of the way to Zum Uerige, and I hope this nails it.   

Title: Re: Recipe check - Dusseldorf Altbier
Post by: bluesman on February 19, 2010, 01:32:13 AM
I put together a clone loosely based on Zum Uerige from Dr. Frank Hebmuller. Thanks again for the link Denny. I need to get my water closer to that regions profile. How can I get there with a Poland Spring base.

This is going to be triple decocted with a sparge  @  125, 144, 158, 169

Here's the recipe so far...Revision A.

Zum Uerige Loose Clone
Dusseldorf Altbier

 
Type: All Grain
Date: 2/27/2010
Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Brewer: Bluesman
Boil Size: 6.62 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00
  
Ingredients
 
Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 85.15 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.46 %
0.38 lb Caramunich Malt 2 (60.0 SRM) Grain 3.60 %
0.19 lb Carafa I (319.0 SRM) Grain 1.80 %
1.00 oz Pearle [8.00 %] (60 min) Hops 26.4 IBU
1.00 oz Hallertauer [4.00 %] (60 min) Hops 11.9 IBU
1.00 oz Tettnanger [4.90 %] (20 min) Hops 8.8 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc  
5.50 gal Poland Spring (R) Water  
1 Pkgs European Ale (White Labs #WLP011) [Starter 1800 ml] Yeast-Ale  

Beer Profile
 
Est Original Gravity: 1.053 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.017 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.77 %
Bitterness: 47.0 IBU
Est Color: 11.7 SRM
 
Mash Profile
 
Mash Name: Decoction Mash, Triple Total Grain Weight: 10.57 lb
Sparge Water: 2.60 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH
  
Decoction Mash, Triple Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Protein Rest Decoct 16.0 qt of mash and boil it 125.0 F
15 min Saccharification Decoct 5.34 qt of mash and boil it 144.0 F
15 min Saccharification Decoct 5.03 qt of mash and boil it 158.0 F
Sparge with 16.0 qt Heat to 169.0 F over 10 min

 
  
Mash Notes: Authentic Germany mash schedule. Attempt to draw decoction from the thickest portion of the mash. Some sources recommend that each decoction amount be given a 15 minute saccharification rest at 158 F (70 C) before boiling it.
Carbonation and Storage
 
Carbonation Type: Kegged (Forced CO2) Volumes of CO2: 2.4
Pressure/Weight: 21.6 PSI Carbonation Used: -
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 60.0 F Age for: 21.0 days
Storage Temperature: 36.0 F  


Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: Kaiser on February 19, 2010, 01:38:58 AM
How can I get there with a Poland Spring base.

I guess the problem is that you don't know what you start with. Although I know the city water profile of Duesseldorf I don't know what the water profile for Zum Uerige is. Supposedly they have a deep well for their water.

Kai
Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: bluesman on February 19, 2010, 01:50:33 AM
How can I get there with a Poland Spring base.

I guess the problem is that you don't know what you start with. Although I know the city water profile of Duesseldorf I don't know what the water profile for Zum Uerige is. Supposedly they have a deep well for their water.

Kai

Here's the Poland Spring Water Mineral Profile as published.

Poland Spring® Natural Spring Water — Mineral content analysis
View the full mineral analysis of our spring water.  Read our bottled water quality report (PDF).

Inorganic Minerals and Metals MRL MCL Level Found
Calcium 0.10 NR 4.4-7.7
Sodium 0.20 NR 3.9-7.4
Potassium 0.10 NR 0.65-1.0
Fluoride 0.100 2.0 (1.4-2.4) 0.11-0.12
Magnesium 0.10 NR 0.91-1.2
Bicarbonate 1.0 NR 6.7-20
Nitrate 0.010 10.00 0.22-0.85
Chloride 1.10 250 5.5-13
Copper 0.050 1.0 ND
pH (units) NA NA 5.72-6.68
Sulfate 0.10 250 2.0-5.8
Arsenic 0.0014 0.010 ND
Lead 0.005 0.005 ND
Total Dissolved Solids 1.0 NR 35-46
All units in (mg/l) or Parts per Million (PPM)
 
Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: redbeerman on February 19, 2010, 12:18:48 PM
Your recipe looks good.  I'm thinking your FG will be lower than 1.017, which is a good thing, if I recall the body of this beer is medium to medium light.  Your water may be a bit soft, but I think you should give it a try.
Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: bluesman on February 19, 2010, 12:37:25 PM
Your water may be a bit soft, but I think you should give it a try.

I'm thinking that might be a last resort, especially if I can't get any info on the Dusseldorf water profile.
Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: Kaiser on February 19, 2010, 01:29:04 PM
...especially if I can't get any info on the Dusseldorf water profile.

I guess I'm on the hook for that ;)

The idea of using the Duesseldorf city water is that it seems to be suitable for brewing Altbiers and therefore I assume that a number of Altbier breweries use it. I meant to publis it as a water recipe but haven't done that yet. But you can find it here as I used it as an example:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk#Calculating_the_salt_additions

If you don't dissolve the chalk you'll have to double the amount of chalk you add since it is less potent in neutralizing the malt acidity when not dissolved with CO2.

I was also playing with the addition of a new feature to my spreadsheet. This would allow you to specify a target water profile and weights for the particular ions. Then it calculates an error between the current profile and the target profile. Using the solver in Excel or OpenOffice you can then determine what salt additions would work best to match that profile. But it didn't work as expected with the OpenOffice solver and I haven't tried Excel yet.

Kai
Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: bluesman on February 19, 2010, 05:32:14 PM
...especially if I can't get any info on the Dusseldorf water profile.

I guess I'm on the hook for that ;)

The idea of using the Duesseldorf city water is that it seems to be suitable for brewing Altbiers and therefore I assume that a number of Altbier breweries use it. I meant to publis it as a water recipe but haven't done that yet. But you can find it here as I used it as an example:

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Building_brewing_water_with_dissolved_chalk#Calculating_the_salt_additions

If you don't dissolve the chalk you'll have to double the amount of chalk you add since it is less potent in neutralizing the malt acidity when not dissolved with CO2.

I was also playing with the addition of a new feature to my spreadsheet. This would allow you to specify a target water profile and weights for the particular ions. Then it calculates an error between the current profile and the target profile. Using the solver in Excel or OpenOffice you can then determine what salt additions would work best to match that profile. But it didn't work as expected with the OpenOffice solver and I haven't tried Excel yet.

Kai

Kai...I was checking out your website last night and in particular the water treatment page.

So dissolving regular ground chalk...calcium carbonate into my Poland spring water will get me closer to a Dusseldorf water profile.

I guess I'll need to calculate how much based on my current CaCO3 and the targeted amount using your spreadsheet.

I'll have to find some time this weekend to look it over.

Thanks for you help.

You are The King of all Imperial Beer Geeks!  ;D

My hat's off to you Kai.
Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: Kaiser on February 19, 2010, 06:08:49 PM
So dissolving regular ground chalk...calcium carbonate into my Poland spring water will get me closer to a Dusseldorf water profile.

Yes it will, but you don't have to go throuh that effort unless you feel like it. Just adding twice the chalk listed w/o dissolving it first should get you the same result. I have yet to see what the actual benefits of dissolving chalk are aside from Reinheitsgebot compliance. I only pointed you to this page because it lists the Duesseldorf water profile.


Kai
Title: Re: Recipe check - Dusseldorf Altbier
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on February 19, 2010, 08:19:06 PM
1 Pkgs European Ale (White Labs #WLP011) [Starter 1800 ml] Yeast-Ale  

Why do you want to use this yeast?

WY1007     German Ale     Düsseldorf (Zum Uerige)
WY1007 German Ale Yeast   = WLP036  Düsseldorf Alt Yeast
Title: Re: Recipe check - Dusseldorf Altbier
Post by: bluesman on February 19, 2010, 09:17:44 PM
1 Pkgs European Ale (White Labs #WLP011) [Starter 1800 ml] Yeast-Ale  

Why do you want to use this yeast?

WY1007     German Ale     Düsseldorf (Zum Uerige)
WY1007 German Ale Yeast   = WLP036  Düsseldorf Alt Yeast

WLP011 European Ale Yeast

Malty, Northern European-origin ale yeast. Low ester production, giving a clean profile. Little to no sulfur production. Low attenuation helps to contribute to the malty character. Good for Alt, Kolsch, malty English ales, and fruit beers.
Attenuation: 65-70%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 65-70°F
(18-21°C)
Alcohol Tolerance:  Medium

WLP036 Dusseldorf Alt Yeast

Traditional Alt yeast from Dusseldorf, Germany. Produces clean, slightly sweet alt beers. Does not accentuate hop flavor as WLP029 does.
Attenuation: 65-72%
Flocculation: Medium
Optimum Fermentation Temperature: 65-69°F
(18-21°C)
Alcohol Tolerance: Medium

They have very similiar specs and I don't have WLP036.
Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: denny on February 19, 2010, 09:24:06 PM
I'll give another thumbs up to 1007/036.  If you make another alt, it's worth your while to try to get ahold of one of those.  OTOH, I've made award winning alts with US-05....
Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: bluesman on February 19, 2010, 09:29:08 PM
I'll give another thumbs up to 1007/036.  If you make another alt, it's worth your while to try to get ahold of one of those.  OTOH, I've made award winning alts with US-05....

...and you know what they say about opinions Denny.  :D

It's amazes me every year when I see the NHC winning recipes in Zymurgy.
Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: denny on February 19, 2010, 10:35:45 PM
I'll give another thumbs up to 1007/036.  If you make another alt, it's worth your while to try to get ahold of one of those.  OTOH, I've made award winning alts with US-05....

...and you know what they say about opinions Denny.  :D

It's amazes me every year when I see the NHC winning recipes in Zymurgy.

Agreed on both points!
Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: bluesman on March 01, 2010, 05:54:31 PM
I brewed this beer yesterday using a decoction mash very smiliar to Kai's Enhanced Double Decoction. It turned out real good.
It was pretty easy to hit my temps using Kai's method. Thanks for the youtube videos.

Dusseldorf Altbier

Type: All Grain
Date: 2/28/2010
Batch Size: 5.25 gal
Brewer: bluesman
Boil Size: 6.32 gal
Boil Time: 90 min
Efficiency: 75.00
 
Ingredients
 
Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (2.0 SRM) Grain 84.11 %
1.00 lb Munich Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 9.35 %
0.50 lb Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 4.67 %
0.20 lb Carafa I (337.0 SRM) Grain 1.87 %
1.25 oz Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] (60 min) Hops 16.9 IBU
1.00 oz Pearle [8.00 %] (60 min) Hops 27.0 IBU
1.00 oz Tettnang [4.50 %] (20 min) Hops 9.2 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc 
5.25 gal Poland Spring (R) Water 
1 Pkgs European Ale (White Labs #WLP011) [Starter 2000 ml] Yeast-Ale 

Beer Profile
 
Measured Original Gravity: 1.055 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.04 % 
Bitterness: 53.1 IBU
Est Color: 13.0 SRM
 
Mash Profile
 
Mash Name: Decoction Mash, Double Total Grain Weight: 10.70 lb
 
Decoction Mash, Double Step Time Name Description Step Temp
20 min Step Add 16 qt of water at 100.0 F 95.0 F
30 min Protein Rest 132.0 F for 30min
20 min Saccharification 151.0 F for 45min
10 min Sparge Add 16.00 qt of water at 161.1 F for 10min

 
Mash Notes: Used for some authentic German styles. Attempt to draw decoction from the thickest portion of the mash. Profiles vary. Some traditional German mashes use a long acid rest at 40 deg C. Also some sources recommend the decoction amount be given a 15 minute saccharification rest at 158 F (70 C) before boiling it.
Carbonation and Storage
 
Carbonation Type: Kegged (Forced CO2) Volumes of CO2: 2.4
Pressure/Weight: 21.6 PSI
Keg Age for: 28.0 days
Storage Temperature: 52.0 F
Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: Malticulous on June 05, 2011, 07:07:35 PM
I'm brewing an Alt with WLP320 today. Has anyone used it? Supposedly Widmer got it from Zum Uerige. It worked wonderfully in my rye beer. I don't know how well it will work in the lower temperature.

Edit; It seems to be fermenting nice and slow at 60F.
Title: Re: Dusseldorf Altbier - Zum Uerige
Post by: thomasbarnes on June 06, 2011, 07:48:20 AM
It's amazes me every year when I see the NHC winning recipes in Zymurgy.

Assuming that the recipes are accurate . . .