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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: ajdarnel on September 06, 2012, 05:56:04 PM

Title: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: ajdarnel on September 06, 2012, 05:56:04 PM
Hey all,
I have a question about recipe formulation. I am currently in the process of creating a Black IPA (CDA, whatever, you know what I mean). I usually use a combination of calculations by hand from Daniels’ “Designing Great Beers” book and the BrewPal App on my iPhone because I am OCD. But this time I am having some decent discrepancies and would like your opinion before I go any further…

I use 10.5 gallons for my calculations for final batch size (usually try to run off 12 gallons of wort from the Mash/Sparge, assume about 1.0 boil off over 60ish minutes and lose about .5 elsewhere)

68% assumed brew house efficiency

Target OG; 1.060 Target IBUs: 60 (ish)

My planned recipe is-

2 row pale malt (80% of grist): 20.5 lbs
Crystal 40L (10%): 2.7 lbs
Chocolate malt (5%): 1.7lbs
Midnight Wheat (5%): 1.2 lbs

Columbus hops (14.6%) 4 oz @15 from flameout
Nugget (12.2%) 2 oz @ 15 from flameout
Columbus 2 oz & Nugget 2oz @ flameout
Columbus 2oz & Nugget 2oz @ Dryhop, 7 days

The problem is with my IBU/GU ratio. I would like it to be less than 1.0, but above 0.9 …
The BrewPal program has my OG (for the above listed grain bill) at 1.064 and the IBUs to be 63 for a ratio of 0.98 which I am happy with. But, when I do the calculations I use OG of 1.060 and get 85 IBUs for a ratio of 1.4, which I is a little more than I am looking for…

So, does anyone have any suggestions or thoughts about which one is right and if it’s even significant? I’m not worried about the slight difference in OG but the IBUs seems pretty far apart. Thanks!
        Adam

Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: tomsawyer on September 06, 2012, 06:16:00 PM
I would think that all late additions is going to give you comparatively less perceived bitterness than a 60min addition.  In any case I'd make the recipe as is and see if you like it.  Calculations are only estimates, the AA% on your hops is an estimate and the storage time and conditions add to the uncertainty.  Don't overthink it.

Possibly add the midnight wheat at the end of the mash to limit the character while still getting the color.
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: EHall on September 06, 2012, 08:12:58 PM
what temp do you plan to mash at and for how long? That will have an impact on the perception of IBU/GU ratio.
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: denny on September 06, 2012, 09:01:10 PM
what temp do you plan to mash at and for how long? That will have an impact on the perception of IBU/GU ratio.

That's a great point.  The ratio is a good place to start, but when you drink the beer it all becomes subjective.
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: dannyjed on September 06, 2012, 10:19:31 PM

Possibly add the midnight wheat at the end of the mash to limit the character while still getting the color.
Great suggestion, I would do this with the Chocolate malt as well.  IMO the roast flavor will clash with the Columbus hops.
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: garc_mall on September 07, 2012, 01:16:20 AM

Possibly add the midnight wheat at the end of the mash to limit the character while still getting the color.
Great suggestion, I would do this with the Chocolate malt as well.  IMO the roast flavor will clash with the Columbus hops.

In a CDA, I would actually drop the chocolate malt entirely. Bump up the midnight wheat until you hit your target color. I would also drop the crystal some and bump up the 2 row to account for the lost gravity. Then again, I hate crystal above 3/4lb per 5 gallons, and I like my CDA's and IPA's to be dry.

Maybe 22lb 2-row
          1lb C40
          1lb Midnight Wheat at sparge

I think that should get you close to your color. You might also consider doing a cold steep of the dark grains, and add that to the boil, it will extract even less roastiness.
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: passlaku on September 07, 2012, 01:44:31 AM
All great advice but I wonder if that is enough midnight wheat in a batch that size?  You might end up with an IBA instead.  The midnight wheat is a really nice malt it adds the lightest roast flavor with no astringency. 
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: Kaiser on September 07, 2012, 02:00:25 AM
you may want to check with rcklinge, his beers turn black overnight :)

(I couldn't resists with a black IPA and a "my beers turn black" thread having back to back posts)

Kai
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: hoser on September 07, 2012, 02:25:50 AM
Most of my black IPAs are as follows:
90% 2-row
5% medium crystal
5% carafa III (midnight wheat in your case)


Doesn't need to be much more complicated than that.   BUs:GUs=1:1 with most of my IBUs and hops with 20 minutes or less in the boil.

FWIW, I can't stand chocolate malts in my black IPAs.  India browns, different story ;D
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: realbeerguy on September 07, 2012, 03:02:01 AM
Agree with no chocolate
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: rjharper on September 07, 2012, 03:18:13 AM
Personally I like a little roastiness in my CDA, otherwise it's an IPA with food coloring.  I want the roast of the barley, the bitterness / astringency of some dark malts and a touch of coffee to balance then give way to aroma and finish of hops.  I use C80, midnight wheat and Carafa III in mine.
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: ajdarnel on September 07, 2012, 01:57:48 PM
what temp do you plan to mash at and for how long? That will have an impact on the perception of IBU/GU ratio.
-----I plan on around 153 for about an hour.
  Thanks for all the other suggestions so far, I think I might keep some of the chocolate malt because I do want some of that roasty/coffee flavor to go along with the color. But maybe I will bump it down some and increase the 2 row..Also, as for the midnight wheat suggestions to add it at the end of the mash/before sparge--I assume I still grind it per usual, and nothing else 'tricky' besides waiting til the end to add it?
 
         thanks again,
                  Adam
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: beersk on September 07, 2012, 03:14:04 PM
And please...CDA stands for Cross Dressing Amateur, so be careful what acronyms you use for it ;)

So, keep it simple and watch out for those cross dressing amateurs...
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: skyler on September 07, 2012, 04:04:18 PM
+1 for dumping the chocolate malt. I use 1-1.5 lbs of carafa special II (added at sparge) and that adds plenty of roasty flavor for me. This isn't a hoppy porter, it is a black IPA.
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: hoser on September 07, 2012, 04:09:08 PM
You will get some roast/coffee flavor from the midnight wheat. Chocolate malt will just muck it up.  The simpler (sp?) the better.  I would also mash 148-150F, but then again I like my hoppy beers bone dry.  I usually grind my roasted malts for color in a coffee grinder if you have it available.  Otherwise, a grain mill will work just find.
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: Pinski on September 07, 2012, 04:35:36 PM
  I usually grind my roasted malts for color in a coffee grinder if you have it available.  Otherwise, a grain mill will work just find.

Could you expand on this please?  Are you saying that you have a grain mill but you prefer to grind your color malts in a coffee grinder?  No astringency issues with this technique?
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: hoser on September 07, 2012, 05:10:53 PM
  I usually grind my roasted malts for color in a coffee grinder if you have it available.  Otherwise, a grain mill will work just find.

Could you expand on this please?  Are you saying that you have a grain mill but you prefer to grind your color malts in a coffee grinder?  No astringency issues with this technique?

I only grind my carafa malts for my black IPAs and other styles (i.e. roggens, etc) in a coffee grinder, coarse setting. Usually it is only a few ounces anyways.  It is already huskless (as the midnight wheat would also be), so no issues with astringency.  Then add it to the top of the mash.  I add it seperate from the other grains.  Never had an astringency issue.  I can't claim the idea, I heard Jamil talking about the technique on one of the Jamil Show archives years ago....
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: ajdarnel on September 07, 2012, 05:48:11 PM
Thanks for all the suggestions, I can't ignore the almost unanimous 'get rid of the chocolate malt' statements, so my new/improved recipe looks like this:

OG: around 1.060, mash around 150 F for 60 min

2 row pale: 20.5 lbs
Crystal 40L: 2.7 lbs
Carafa II: 1.0 lbs (possibly ground extra/on top/near end of mash)
Midnight Wheat: 1.0 lbs (added at the end of mash)

I also decreased my hops a bit, so my IBU's should be between 56-66 (instead of the previous range of 63-85)

Columbus 3 oz 15.2% (I found out the specific AA at my supplier) @ 15 min before flameout
Nugget 1.5oz 13.3% @ 15 min before flameout

Columbus 2/Nugget 2 @ flameout
Columbus 2/Nugget 2 @ dry hop, 7 days

Wyeast 1056 with a good 'starter'.

I plan on brewing this next Saturday (Sep 15).
          Thanks again,
                   Cheers!
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: hoser on September 07, 2012, 05:51:08 PM
For some reason I just noticed, no bittering hops?  Not saying it can't or won't work, just surprising.
Title: Re: Black IPA recipe formulation question/problems
Post by: ajdarnel on September 07, 2012, 06:09:24 PM
For some reason I just noticed, no bittering hops?  Not saying it can't or won't work, just surprising.

         The additions with 15 minutes left "should" add the necessary IBUs so I've read. I saw a few other recipes like this and decided to try it out. My calculations along with an app I use (BrewPal) both confirm that this should work....it better! ;)