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General Category => Extract/Partial Mash Brewing => Topic started by: nateo on September 29, 2012, 01:46:32 pm

Title: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: nateo on September 29, 2012, 01:46:32 pm
I came across this over on the probrewer boards, and thought it was interesting:
"Be aware that Briess DME and LME products contain potentially excessive sodium content. For a wort reconstituted to 1.045, the sodium content is 100 ppm when reconstituting with distilled water. That content doubles if the gravity is brought to 1.089. If the local tap water already has sodium content, that impact is added to the extract contribution.

The problem is due to Briess using the local Chilton, WI water which is ion-exchange softened. The typical sodium content of that water is 100 ppm.

Brewers should be aware of this impact and if it degrades the perception of their beers, seek out other extract sources."

http://probrewer.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25394
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: denny on September 29, 2012, 02:33:15 pm
Martin posted similar info here a few weeks back.
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: nateo on September 29, 2012, 02:43:56 pm
Martin posted similar info here a few weeks back.

Whoops, guess I missed that.
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: hopfenundmalz on September 29, 2012, 05:13:28 pm
What are the chances that thr WaterEng that posted that might be someone we know?
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: euge on September 30, 2012, 09:30:22 am
Has Breiss always had this type of sodium concentration present in their malt extracts? Is this a new development?
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: denny on September 30, 2012, 10:17:48 am
What are the chances that thr WaterEng that posted that might be someone we know?

I'd say damn good!  ;)
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: denny on September 30, 2012, 10:19:09 am
Has Breiss always had this type of sodium concentration present in their malt extracts? Is this a new development?

The implication in Martin's earlier post was that it has been that way since they started using the softened city water.  I assume that's been some time, but I don't know how long.
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: mabrungard on September 30, 2012, 06:50:59 pm
Apparently, Briess LME and DME have had this problem all along since the City has been softening for quite a while.  I even consulted with the City Water Dept to find out what the raw water quality was.  I was hoping that Briess could just drill there own well and use unsoftened water, but the raw water quality is too poor for decent brewing. 
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: philm63 on October 01, 2012, 04:32:33 pm
Is there an easy way to learn what the sodium content is in other brands' DME and LME? And if Briess knows about this (and I have to think they do...) do they plan on doing something about it? I'd think this could impact their business a bit.
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: kramerog on November 15, 2012, 09:10:32 am
Why would Breiss locate themselves somewhere with crappy water?  Why don't they use RO?
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: nateo on November 15, 2012, 09:13:04 am
Why would Breiss locate themselves somewhere with crappy water?  Why don't they use RO?

It's cheap, and it's expensive, respectively.
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 15, 2012, 09:18:41 am
Why would Breiss locate themselves somewhere with crappy water?  Why don't they use RO?

Who knows why they choose WI when they came from the Czechoslovakia (then). A Czech population in that town? The midwest has pretty crappy water. Michigan, WI and other states here make some good beer though.

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/About/History.htm

RO would be an improvement. Some breweries go to that for quality.
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: anje on November 15, 2012, 11:13:02 am
Why would Breiss locate themselves somewhere with crappy water?  Why don't they use RO?

Who knows why they choose WI when they came from the Czechoslovakia (then). A Czech population in that town? The midwest has pretty crappy water. Michigan, WI and other states here make some good beer though.
That portion of NE Wisconsin has a really high Bohemian population. (I grew up there.) Presumably, they ended up there with all the other immigrants.
Edit: The population is even higher a bit closer to Lake Michigan. Cool maps. (http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/geo/courses/geo200/usa_maps.html)
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: hopfenundmalz on November 15, 2012, 11:32:34 am
Why would Breiss locate themselves somewhere with crappy water?  Why don't they use RO?

Who knows why they choose WI when they came from the Czechoslovakia (then). A Czech population in that town? The midwest has pretty crappy water. Michigan, WI and other states here make some good beer though.
That portion of NE Wisconsin has a really high Bohemian population. (I grew up there.) Presumably, they ended up there with all the other immigrants.
Edit: The population is even higher a bit closer to Lake Michigan. Cool maps. (http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/geo/courses/geo200/usa_maps.html)
Cool data maps. Thanks Anje.
Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: fredthecat on May 03, 2022, 09:05:13 pm
alright, final assessment. i have used the DME again in 2 brews out of 3 using the same yeast.

i've used the briess DME in probably 8 or so brews total over the past year and a half now as well.

yeast for all 3: OYL006 (WLP007 equivalent sort of)

brew 1 - porter with a sulfate:chloride ratio strongly towards chloride
3lbs DME, 3lbs 2row, 3/4lb pale chocolate, 1/2lb chocolate, 3/4lb crystal 60
carbed with 75g dextrose

brew 2 - bitter
90% maris otter, the rest bits of crystal, amber, acid malt, carafaIII
carbed with 85g dextrose

brew 3 - dry stout
3lbs DME, 2lbs maris otter, 1lb roasted barley, 1/2lb flaked barley
carbed with 75g dextrose


brew 2 is just so obviously different from 1 and 3. head retention is okay, but head is minimal on 1 and 3. head on brew 2 is massive and lasts while only getting a tiny bit more dextrose than the others. brew 2's taste is just bright and in your face, very hoppy. the water profiles for brew 2 and 3 were similar, brew 1's was different. im just seeing the DME as a likely factor in not making the best brews.

Options for other brands of DME are almost twice the price, while i was always able to get LME that tasted good from my LHBS for a price just slightly higher than the briess DME.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=13520.0

(probrewer forum link in this thread is dead since it moved or something, but another verification of this)

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/ion-additions-from-briess-pilsner-dme.186443/

this thread is someone's estimates through math, but that would add something like 300ppm of sodium to the brews i mentioned above where i used 3lbs of DME. my tap water is at ~8ppm.

i know lots of people use briess DME, but im done with it despite its cheap price and ease of storage/use.


Title: Re: Briess lme/dme sodium content
Post by: dmtaylor on May 03, 2022, 09:10:19 pm
As the local water nerd, I recently took an independent look into the source water in Chilton, WI, and....... it ain't pretty.  High alkalinity and sodium indeed.  Linky to my detailed discussion:

https://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/extract-porter-questions-briess-dme-mineral-profile.664153/#post-7426204