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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: gman23 on November 01, 2012, 05:56:52 PM

Title: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: gman23 on November 01, 2012, 05:56:52 PM
I see a post was started earlier so this is related. I am planning to do a Saison de Noel next. I have never brewed a Saison of any type so any help would be appreciated. From what I undestand, Saison de Noel is just a higher gravity, maltier, darker version of a Saison. Is this correct? I wasn't sure what to use for guidelines so Biere de Garde seemed close... How does this look so far?

10# Pilsner
1# Munich
1# Wheat
1/2# Caravienne
1/4# Carafa III
1# table sugar

OG 1.067
IBUs 36
SRM 16

I know the wheat may be out of place but seems to be okay. What about the caravienne?

I plan to mash at 148-150 for 75 minutes and use WY3711 with the goal of getting it to finish below 1.010

Any input?
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: morticaixavier on November 01, 2012, 06:07:12 PM
one of the nice things about saison as a style is that nothing is really out of place. If you want some wheat, use some wheat, Rye? sure, millet? why not. Teff? yup.

I don't know that I would put the caravienne in but that might well be a taste thing. remember the sugar is going to lower your FG and the caravienne will raise your FG but if your taste imagination says that the contribution from the cara will be pleasant try it. it'll be beer and probably darn tasty.
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: gman23 on November 01, 2012, 06:09:52 PM
Thanks! Do you think I should replace the Caravienne with Aromatic?

I also plan to bitter with Magnum, use Centennial for flavor/aroma and throw some ground coriander in at the end of the boil
Title: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: majorvices on November 01, 2012, 07:14:26 PM
I think you will be fine with the cara vienne, especially since you are more than displacing it with sugar. Especially also if you use the 3711 Saison strain. What you have, grain bill wise, looks good to me. You could possibly make it darker if it fit your fancy. Or not.
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: mihalybaci on November 01, 2012, 07:24:36 PM
Thanks! Do you think I should replace the Caravienne with Aromatic?

I'd stick with the caravienne. I made a saison last year with (I think) 12 oz of caravienne. I think it added a nice subtle maltiness without being out of place.
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: gman23 on November 01, 2012, 07:29:52 PM
Can I sub in some light crystal malt in case the homebrew store doesn't have caravienne?

Am I right on my thinking about the differences between a Saison and a Saison de Noel?
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: snowtiger87 on November 01, 2012, 09:24:26 PM
I would sub special B if they don't have caravienne. It will give you a little more color but also add a pleasant plum / malt flavor similar to a Belgian-style Dubbel.
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: majorvices on November 02, 2012, 02:42:40 AM
I would sub special B if they don't have caravienne. It will give you a little more color but also add a pleasant plum / malt flavor similar to a Belgian-style Dubbel.

It's a great suggestion but the only thing I will say is that add special B only if you want it to resemble a Dubbel. If you want something "Saisonish" but dark, I'd recommend keeping with the lighter crystal. The great thing is, whatever you do, you'll do it! 8)
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: thebigbaker on November 02, 2012, 04:15:01 AM
I'm attempting my first Saison de Noel this weekend and I 'm using Caraaroma along w/ Carafa III and D-90 dark candi syrup.  This is what Northern Brewer uses in their Saison de Noel, so I figured I'd try these in mine. 
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: gman23 on November 02, 2012, 03:20:48 PM
Yeah I saw that recipe. I am too cheap to get the dark candi syrup. I may add more table sugar in attempt to account for that even though I know it probably is not an appropriate sub.
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: thebigbaker on November 02, 2012, 03:42:20 PM
Yeah I saw that recipe. I am too cheap to get the dark candi syrup. I may add more table sugar in attempt to account for that even though I know it probably is not an appropriate sub.

I hear ya.  First time I'm using dark candi syrup and there was some sticker shock ($9.95 @ my LHBS).  But I figured since I'm going for a rich dark color, I'll go w/ it this time.  To compensate, I skipped the Pilsner Malt and using 2-Row that I already have on hand.
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: dbeechum on November 02, 2012, 03:48:17 PM
Yeah I saw that recipe. I am too cheap to get the dark candi syrup. I may add more table sugar in attempt to account for that even though I know it probably is not an appropriate sub.

It's really not. Sure you'll match your strength, but the primary reason to use the dark candi syrups is because of the intense flavors that they provide. There's really no other way to get them.

Spring for the syrup once and you'll be shocked.
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: Joe Sr. on November 02, 2012, 03:50:00 PM
Yeah I saw that recipe. I am too cheap to get the dark candi syrup. I may add more table sugar in attempt to account for that even though I know it probably is not an appropriate sub.

It's really not. Sure you'll match your strength, but the primary reason to use the dark candi syrups is because of the intense flavors that they provide. There's really no other way to get them.

Spring for the syrup once and you'll be shocked.
Yeah I saw that recipe. I am too cheap to get the dark candi syrup. I may add more table sugar in attempt to account for that even though I know it probably is not an appropriate sub.

You beat me too it, Drew.  I agree 100%.

The flavors you'll get from the syrup are worth the price and you won't get them from table sugar.

I suppose you could invert and carmelize your own sugar, but ain't nobody got time for that!
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: gman23 on November 02, 2012, 04:10:45 PM
Got it thanks guys. I won't be brewing this for a couple of more weeks so I have time to make tweeks as I get closer. If I don't use dark candi sugar, special b might be a good idea.

Now I am starting to get torn between doing a normal Saison and a Saison de Noel. I wanted to do something for xmas but now I don't know....that is my problem with trying to develop recipes too soon.
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: snowtiger87 on November 02, 2012, 08:41:58 PM
Quote
Spring for the syrup once and you'll be shocked.

Or you can just make your own. It takes about 30 minutes.

http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/10/homemade-candi-syrup.html
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: dbeechum on November 02, 2012, 10:41:53 PM
Meh, did that once.. wasn't as impressed with the final product. It'll do in a pinch, but..
Title: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: denny on November 02, 2012, 11:29:07 PM
Meh, did that once.. wasn't as impressed with the final product. It'll do in a pinch, but..

Agreed.  I've tasted maybe 5-6 versions of syrups that people have made.  None of them held a candle to the real thing.  Spend the money....it's worth it.
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: garc_mall on November 03, 2012, 08:30:18 PM
I made a dubbel using a homemade candy syrup. However, I used this method: http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html

I think it is a LOT closer than the other method, but I am still futzing with it to get the right flavors I want.
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: majorvices on November 03, 2012, 11:34:46 PM
Yeah I saw that recipe. I am too cheap to get the dark candi syrup. I may add more table sugar in attempt to account for that even though I know it probably is not an appropriate sub.

It's really not. Sure you'll match your strength, but the primary reason to use the dark candi syrups is because of the intense flavors that they provide. There's really no other way to get them.

Spring for the syrup once and you'll be shocked.

Plus eleventybillion
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: majorvices on November 03, 2012, 11:40:21 PM
Meh, did that once.. wasn't as impressed with the final product. It'll do in a pinch, but..

Agree but .... you can do some interesting things other than what is traditional. I once made a cinnamon candi syrup for a beer that turned out awesome. Thinking outside the box ... figs, maple, agave .... there is an endless way to make concentrated syrups. Doesn't always have to be traditional .... but if a traditional belgian dubbel or quad is what you are after there is just no substitute.
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: redbeerman on November 07, 2012, 05:06:14 PM
I've made dark syrup a couple of times, but the real thing does give a much more complex flavor profile IMO, so that's what I use now.  My LHBS carries it all the time now, so buying it is much less of a hassle than it used to be.
Title: Re: Saison de Noel part II
Post by: snowtiger87 on November 07, 2012, 10:40:03 PM
Quote
I made a dubbel using a homemade candy syrup. However, I used this method: http://ryanbrews.blogspot.com/2012/02/candy-syrup-right-way-hint-weve-been.html

I think it is a LOT closer than the other method, but I am still futzing with it to get the right flavors I want.

Wow, that is quite a bit different. Thanks. I will have to try this method to see if I like the results more.