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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: bgm1961 on November 07, 2012, 04:17:07 PM

Title: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: bgm1961 on November 07, 2012, 04:17:07 PM
Hello all,

I accidently activated a package of "Wyeast 1272 American II" four months ago. The mfg date is 29 May 12 (5 months, 1 week), and its been stored in the refrigerator all the time. The package is still swollen. I intend to use it for a HALF batch (2.5 gals) of American style Ale.

Question:  Can I get away with simply pitching the ENTIRE package into the half batch, letting the batch size compensate for its age and swollen state, or do I really need to do a starter? I’ll do a starter, but would simply prefer to simply pitch the whole package and call it good.

Of course, what I prefer doesn’t matter if the only viable solution in this situation is to do a starter. I just don’t have enough experience to know yet. The FAQ on the Wyeast website says its OK to delay use on an activated package, but I don’t think they were talking about a four month delay. But their advice is based on a full batch.

Again this wouldn’t even be a question if I was doing a full batch - a starter would be a no-brainer in this situation. But I’m assuming the half-batch size is the key to the answer. Thoughts?

Thanks,
Bgm1961
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: guido on November 07, 2012, 04:23:46 PM
I always make a starter regardless.  Fermentation is everything.
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: Slowbrew on November 07, 2012, 04:24:02 PM
I would do a small starter on a 4 month old smack pack either way.  It might work just fine but why take the chance.  Mix up a 1 qt. starter and give it a 2 or 3 days to get ready to go.  That way you know it's good to go.

Paul
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: morticaixavier on November 07, 2012, 04:24:57 PM
I am not sure that activating the pouch matters so much here. Plug your numbers in to mr malty and see what it says. Maybe plug it in as 125ml (or whatever) of harvested dregs with the harvest date at the 4 month mark? The fact that the pouch is still swollen means nothing, it is sealed and the co2 was released. It's not going anywhere fast.

You could pull off a pint or so of your wort or make a simple starter early on brew day and pitch the pouch into that. you should see some activity by pitching time if the yeast is still good. Plus it'll give the buggers a boost.
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: davidgzach on November 07, 2012, 04:28:02 PM
You are looking at about 10% viability.  Only 10B cells.  I would make a starter even for a 2.5G batch.

Dave 
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: euge on November 07, 2012, 05:09:13 PM
You are looking at about 10% viability.  Only 10B cells.  I would make a starter even for a 2.5G batch.

Dave

Make a starter- which was required in the first place- now even more important you may need to do a step-up.
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: Jimmy K on November 07, 2012, 07:36:08 PM
I'm not exactly a yeast expert, but it's my understanding that bringing yeast out of hibernation with a small amount of wort means they won't be able to rebuild their reserves for extended storage. That would mean activating the pack weakened all the cells and then they were stored for 4 months with no food.  If this is true, then 10% viability is definately a best case scenario.
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: a10t2 on November 08, 2012, 02:33:24 PM
A brand-new pack (100 billion cells) would be about right for 2.5 gal of average-gravity ale. The rule of thumb for refrigerated storage is 25% viability loss per month, so after five months it should be in the neighborhood of 25% viable - 25 billion cells left in the pack. I doubt that smacking the pack made a huge difference either way. I'm sure it will ferment just fine if you pitch the pack, but a 500-750 mL starter would get it back to the proper cell count.
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: davidgzach on November 08, 2012, 04:50:37 PM
The rule of thumb for refrigerated storage is 25% viability loss per month, so after five months it should be in the neighborhood of 25% viable - 25 billion cells left in the pack.

Math doesn't work here.   ???
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: morticaixavier on November 08, 2012, 04:54:39 PM
The rule of thumb for refrigerated storage is 25% viability loss per month, so after five months it should be in the neighborhood of 25% viable - 25 billion cells left in the pack.

Math doesn't work here.   ???

100b - (100b *.25) = 75b
75b - (75b * .25) = 56.25b
56.25b - (56.25b * .25) = 42.1875b
42.1875b - (42.1875b * .25) = 31.640625b
31.640625b - (31.640625b * .25) = 23.73046875b

works fairly well it seems.
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: erockrph on November 08, 2012, 04:56:39 PM
The rule of thumb for refrigerated storage is 25% viability loss per month, so after five months it should be in the neighborhood of 25% viable - 25 billion cells left in the pack.

Math doesn't work here.   ???

0.755=0.237
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: morticaixavier on November 08, 2012, 04:57:22 PM
The rule of thumb for refrigerated storage is 25% viability loss per month, so after five months it should be in the neighborhood of 25% viable - 25 billion cells left in the pack.

Math doesn't work here.   ???

0.755=0.237

oh sure, take the EASY way out.  ;D
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: davidgzach on November 08, 2012, 05:49:02 PM
I see my mistake, thanks! 
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: davidgzach on November 08, 2012, 06:10:01 PM
Just wondering.  I use Mr.Malty and/or Yeastcalc for these type questions and both have a 10% viability at 5 months.  Where does the 25%/month rule of thumb come from?

Dave
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: morticaixavier on November 08, 2012, 07:24:50 PM
Just wondering.  I use Mr.Malty and/or Yeastcalc for these type questions and both have a 10% viability at 5 months.  Where does the 25%/month rule of thumb come from?

Dave

I have seen people question those calculations. I suspect they assume some mishandling. Whereas the 25% figure is for constantly refridgerated yeast

(NOTE: My work computer does not have spell check in IE. I apologize for my abismal spelling)
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: a10t2 on November 08, 2012, 08:40:45 PM
Just wondering.  I use Mr.Malty and/or Yeastcalc for these type questions and both have a 10% viability at 5 months.  Where does the 25%/month rule of thumb come from?

The MrMalty calculator assumes that viability drops linearly from 100% to 10% over a period of ~3.5 months, then stays at 10%. Which is obviously a very artificial-looking curve, but probably close enough not to cause any problems until you get to very old samples.

Who originated the 25%/month rule, I don't know, but it does track well with cell counts I've done on stored slurry.
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: davidgzach on November 08, 2012, 08:59:27 PM
Just wondering.  I use Mr.Malty and/or Yeastcalc for these type questions and both have a 10% viability at 5 months.  Where does the 25%/month rule of thumb come from?

The MrMalty calculator assumes that viability drops linearly from 100% to 10% over a period of ~3.5 months, then stays at 10%. Which is obviously a very artificial-looking curve, but probably close enough not to cause any problems until you get to very old samples.

Who originated the 25%/month rule, I don't know, but it does track well with cell counts I've done on stored slurry.

I've always wondered about that and the 25%/month curve would make more logical sense. 
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: tschmidlin on November 09, 2012, 06:57:22 AM
(NOTE: My work computer does not have spell check in IE. I apologize for my abismal spelling)
Abysmal.
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: davidgzach on November 09, 2012, 12:25:34 PM
(NOTE: My work computer does not have spell check in IE. I apologize for my abismal spelling)
Abysmal.

LOL, nice Tom!
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: euge on November 09, 2012, 01:14:34 PM
(NOTE: My work computer does not have spell check in IE. I apologize for my abismal spelling)
Abysmal.

LOL, nice Tom!

Ever heard of Firefox Mort? ;)
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: morticaixavier on November 09, 2012, 02:47:04 PM
(NOTE: My work computer does not have spell check in IE. I apologize for my abismal spelling)
Abysmal.

LOL, nice Tom!

Ever heard of Firefox Mort? ;)

Sure, I actually use chrome at home (ha that rhymes) but the work machine is IE whether I like it or not. If I really cared I could always pull the posts over to Word to spell check but it ain't no big thang
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: a10t2 on November 09, 2012, 04:11:26 PM
If I really cared I could always pull the posts over to Word to spell check but it ain't no big thang

Thing.
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: weithman5 on November 09, 2012, 04:18:13 PM
if you guys don't twit it I will tate my ball and do stwaight home. >:(
Title: Re: Will pitching entire package into 1/2 batch compensate for mishandling?
Post by: tschmidlin on November 10, 2012, 07:41:21 AM
If I really cared I could always pull the posts over to Word to spell check but it ain't no big thang

Thing.
;D I was thinking the same thing, the scrolled down a little further.