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General Category => Beer Recipes => Topic started by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on November 08, 2012, 06:32:45 PM

Title: American Saison
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on November 08, 2012, 06:32:45 PM
I think I have decided to go with a more normal saison instead of the saison de noel which I had previously posted about.

70% Pilsner
10% Munich
10% wheat
10% table sugar

14 g Centennial FWH
7 g Magnum 60 min
14 g Columbus 15 min
14 g Centennial 10 min
14 g Cascade 5 min
14 g Goldings 0 min

WY3711 French Saison

OG 1.059
IBUs 37
SRM 5

I know the hop scheduled is probably overly complicated. I want to conserve some types and not use them all up at once which is kind of why I chose to do it this way. I have about 2 oz of goldings that I never use so I just decided to throw some in at flame out. Obviously going for an "american" saison here.

Any input?
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: troybinso on November 08, 2012, 07:48:18 PM
Sounds great to me. Golding/Cascade goes great with WY3711. I would ditch the sugar if I were you. This yeast ferments so completely that it is unnecessary, and actually detracts, in my opinion.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on November 08, 2012, 08:10:18 PM
That is good to know about the sugar. I have no experience with this yeast
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: firedog23 on November 08, 2012, 08:19:56 PM
What is your planned boil time?  I have suffered with pilsner and I believe it is down to my boil time.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: euge on November 08, 2012, 08:25:16 PM
Is it an American Saison because of the American hops? IIRC Belgian brewers don't appear to shy away from them either.

But, LOL I call my Pale ales "Bitters" just because.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on November 08, 2012, 08:29:42 PM
Firedog - I use pilsner malt quite often and have never had an issue with it doing just a 60 minute boil. From what I understand most pilsner malt is modified enough for single step infusions which is the only way I have ever brewed. What problems do you experience?

Euge - I guess I shouldn't call it an American Saison just more of an "untraditional" Saison. I just assumed that most authentic ones didn't use American style hops with more late kettle additions. I honestly don't know too much about the style of Saison to tell you the truth.... I just recently started to acquire a taste for them
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: morticaixavier on November 08, 2012, 08:41:54 PM
Firedog - I use pilsner malt quite often and have never had an issue with it doing just a 60 minute boil. From what I understand most pilsner malt is modified enough for single step infusions which is the only way I have ever brewed. What problems do you experience?

Euge - I guess I shouldn't call it an American Saison just more of an "untraditional" Saison. I just assumed that most authentic ones didn't use American style hops with more late kettle additions. I honestly don't know too much about the style of Saison to tell you the truth.... I just recently started to acquire a taste for them

I have not tried a 60 minute boil with a pilsner beer but what I understand to be the concern is DMS precursors. Pilsner malt has a lot more than other two row base malts and the longer boil (90 minutes) is supposed to drive more off so you have less chance of ending up with a canned corn beer.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: firedog23 on November 08, 2012, 08:45:05 PM
My experience with pilsner has been DMS.  Of the three batches I have done, 2 were off and the one I got right was boiled for 90 minutes.  I have 10 pounds that I need to use but want to get it right as I hate wasting time and money.
Title: American Saison
Post by: denny on November 08, 2012, 08:46:12 PM
Firedog - I use pilsner malt quite often and have never had an issue with it doing just a 60 minute boil. From what I understand most pilsner malt is modified enough for single step infusions which is the only way I have ever brewed. What problems do you experience?

Euge - I guess I shouldn't call it an American Saison just more of an "untraditional" Saison. I just assumed that most authentic ones didn't use American style hops with more late kettle additions. I honestly don't know too much about the style of Saison to tell you the truth.... I just recently started to acquire a taste for them

I have not tried a 60 minute boil with a pilsner beer but what I understand to be the concern is DMS precursors. Pilsner malt has a lot more than other two row base malts and the longer boil (90 minutes) is supposed to drive more off so you have less chance of ending up with a canned corn beer.

True. It seems to be variable, though.  I almost always do about a 70-75 min. boil with pils malt and don't have issues.  Every once in a while, though, I get a bit of DMS.  I've gone to 90 min.boils just to be safe.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on November 08, 2012, 09:00:02 PM
Ok that makes sense. I have heard those concerns but never had any issues up to this point. I think the most pilsner malt that I have ever used is 70% of the grist. If I had a larger kettle I would probably do a longer boil to avoid DMS
Title: American Saison
Post by: mpietropaoli on November 09, 2012, 02:18:53 AM
Make sure to post back on how this comes out.  Looks really interesting!  I've used wlp566 a lot, but saison buffs hate on it.  Heard good things about 3711.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on November 09, 2012, 03:52:41 AM
I will try to remember to update when I brew this. It will either be my next batch or the one after I think. I may do an old reliable recipe so I don't disappoint over the holidays... I have been experimenting a bit more lately and not hitting much.

At this point, I am considering dropping the sugar and upping the Munich to make up for the gravity and stay within the color restraints. I am not sure what to expect from 3711 since it is shown to average 80% attenuation. I am hoping to get at least 85% to really dry it out hence the sugar.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on November 09, 2012, 05:51:42 PM
At this point, I am considering dropping the sugar and upping the Munich to make up for the gravity and stay within the color restraints. I am not sure what to expect from 3711 since it is shown to average 80% attenuation. I am hoping to get at least 85% to really dry it out hence the sugar.

Sugar is good insurance. It needs to be REALLY dry to satisfy a thirst for saison. With the Munich and a high-quality Pils malt, you won't be short on malt profile, even with 10% sugar.

Remember to add some yeast nutrient to any non-all malt beer. Again - good insurance.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on November 09, 2012, 05:54:07 PM
Thanks for the advice. I will be doing a starter for the first time in a while. I would like to start one the morning of brewday from the second runnings but not sure if that will be enough time to be worth it.

My normal go to yeast is US05
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: redbeerman on November 14, 2012, 01:52:35 PM
Not a big fan of 3711.  The mouthfeel is a bit too slick for my palate.  I prefer WLP565, 566.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: mmitchem on November 14, 2012, 02:18:33 PM
Not a big fan of 3711.  The mouthfeel is a bit too slick for my palate.  I prefer WLP565, 566.

+1 WLP565 is a really solid saison yeast that I have used a few times with great success. Tastes great.

As for pilsner malt, I used to get a little DMS when I boiled only 60 minutes. Now when I brew anything with pilsner I always account for a 90 minute boil and DMS is a thing of the past.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: snowtiger87 on November 14, 2012, 11:04:37 PM
I use WY 3711 and WLP 565 together to get the best of both.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on November 14, 2012, 11:18:16 PM
I don't have any experience with any Saison yeasts so anything will be a good starting point I suppose. Is 565 the one that takes a while to finish and seems to stop after a couple of days?
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: andyi on November 15, 2012, 12:56:50 AM

"I don't have any experience with any Saison yeasts"

You might want to try the 3711 - less finicky 565.  You dont need low mash temps or high ferm temps.

I mash at 152F and it will still get to 1.004-ish with noticeable mouthfeel. Pitch at 66F let freerise to low 70's or where ever it wants to go.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: guido on November 15, 2012, 01:28:27 AM
I don't have any experience with any Saison yeasts so anything will be a good starting point I suppose. Is 565 the one that takes a while to finish and seems to stop after a couple of days?

I used 565 for the first time.  At the advice of a friend, I cranked it up between 90-90F (with the help of an aquarium heater in an Igloo cooler).  It fermented completely in less than two weeks--from 1.062 to 1.004.  It's wonderful.  I'm kicking myself that I never brewed Saison before.
Title: Re: American Saison
Post by: Iliff Ave Brewhouse on November 15, 2012, 02:11:05 AM
Thanks for all of the input guys. I think I will stick with the 3711 for my first try. I don't think I have the ability to get the fermenter up to 90 during the winter.