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General Category => Going Pro => Topic started by: phillamb168 on December 06, 2012, 01:28:39 PM

Title: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: phillamb168 on December 06, 2012, 01:28:39 PM
Hey guys, what would you say is the average amount of space needed for a 10 BBL system including an average-sized packaging/canning system + fermenters + product storage? I was thinking 1500 - 2000 sqft. Realistic?
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: tschmidlin on December 06, 2012, 07:10:21 PM
I don't know about packaging lines, but the guys I know who are opening breweries have ~4000 sqft for a 15 bbl system plus a tasting room, and ~4000 sqft for a 7-10 bbl system and a restaurant.  Obviously it depends on the packaging line, number of fermenters, etc., but I think you could do it in the 1500-2000 sqft range.  You'll wish you had more space though, everyone does.
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: bluesman on December 06, 2012, 07:54:34 PM
As a starter, I would layout your equipment on google sketchup or on paper, incorporating all of the necessary footprints with some room to maneuver around everything and a good process flow, then calculate some additional room for expansion.

JV Northwest recommends for a Complete Brewery .5 - 1 sq. ft./bbl of yearly capacity.
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: a10t2 on December 06, 2012, 08:19:01 PM
Storage is the biggest question mark. In terms of actually laying out the equipment, you'd only need ~100 sqft for a three-vessel brewhouse, and ~50 sqft per fermenter to have a walkway on one side. In that size range, I'd assume you're looking at something like a semi-automated four head packaging line; that's another 150 sqft or so when it's set up. Call it 250 to allow for moving pallets around during packaging. So if you have 10 fermenters and two brights (1800-2600 bbl/yr capacity) you need ~1000 sqft for the brewhouse.

I don't know what the standard stacking height is over there, but it looks like a EUR pallet is about 10.3 sqft. Assuming 72 US cases per pallet, that's 0.5 bbl/sqft. So with 500 sqft of cold storage, you could hold about one month's production - two months if you can double-stack. That only leaves 500 sqft of dry storage, which isn't a whole lot but should let you keep at least 3-4 weeks of consumables in inventory, depending on what else you need to use it for.

In that production range, I'd say 2000 sqft is about the minimum. For what it's worth, we're looking at 1100 sqft for a 7 bbl system with no packaging, and I suspect we're still going to have to rent a storage unit.
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on December 06, 2012, 09:30:18 PM
What is the minimum for cans? (How many pallets you have to buy).
500 sf cooler is a good start up. Office space, Lab space...
I would say realistic at least 3,000 sf but 5,000 sf would not be out of question.
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: phillamb168 on December 07, 2012, 04:23:34 PM
Wow. So how much do you guys pay for your spaces? Around here, 3,000 square feet of space is going to cost me about $3,000 a month. Is that in line with what you've seen?
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: nateo on December 07, 2012, 04:33:17 PM
In Denver proper (city and county of) the kind of commercial property you'd want to put a production brewery in ran about $1 per ft^2 last I checked, which was a year or two ago. By that I mean close to downtown but not a good location for a brewpub. Spaces were a bit cheaper in the suburbs, and much more expensive downtown.
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: tschmidlin on December 07, 2012, 05:40:59 PM
There is a huge range of prices here, but $12/sqft/yr + NNN would be on the high end of normal for industrial space in Redmond.  Retail or office space is 2-3 times that.  I think the market is somewhat down right now though.
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on December 07, 2012, 07:24:09 PM
Here is it from $4.50 sf/year for warehouse space up to $12 sf/year for retail space.
You also have to take into consideration population density.
More people per Square Mile more customers and more expensive rent.
Another thing. Are utilities (water, heat, electricity, AC) included.
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: phillamb168 on December 10, 2012, 10:11:38 AM
Nope, nothing's included in that price, so there would still be insurance, water, elec, heating to pay.
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: phillamb168 on December 10, 2012, 10:14:07 AM
Another question... is 150k for a 7 BBL direct-fired system reasonable? Price includes 4 7 BBL brites, 4 7 BBL conicals, refrigeration group, malt auger, pumps & hard-piped stainless throughout. Made in USA and Shanghai.
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: nateo on December 10, 2012, 03:48:25 PM
Were the pumps made in the US or China? I've read it's better to go with western pumps because they'll be easier to service and get parts for than the Chinese pumps. I'm not sure why you'd need an equal number of brites and conicals, unless you're serving out of your brites.
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: phillamb168 on December 10, 2012, 04:22:55 PM
Were the pumps made in the US or China? I've read it's better to go with western pumps because they'll be easier to service and get parts for than the Chinese pumps. I'm not sure why you'd need an equal number of brites and conicals, unless you're serving out of your brites.

Dunno. It's part of the package deal, you get 4 of each. Would you suggest 2 conicals and 4 brites, or the other way around?
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: nateo on December 10, 2012, 04:25:09 PM
You'll bottleneck in your fermentors way before you bottleneck in your brites. You'll need like 14 days in the primary, and two or three in the brites.
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: phillamb168 on December 10, 2012, 04:33:51 PM
So, related to this somewhat, how do you estimate sales for something like this? I can easily estimate how much beer I can make, but how much can I sell? Should I be talking to distributors even this early?
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: a10t2 on December 10, 2012, 04:38:12 PM
I'd say that's a reasonable price. It sounds like the setup is targeted at brewpubs. In a packaging brewery you only need one bright per 6-8 fermenters, depending on product mix. If the packaging equipment can handle the throughput and you have the labor, you can turn a bright around twice a day.

4 x 7 bbl FVs would max out at maybe 900 bbl/year, tops.
Title: Re: Space needed for 10 BBL + storage + canning?
Post by: nateo on December 10, 2012, 05:23:03 PM
One option, if you have an estimate of your fixed overhead, and a range of variable expenses, and a range of projected sales (like 600bbl, +/- 300bbl), you can run some simulations with Excel to see how likely it is you'll turn a profit. I made a spreadsheet like that for something else, but I can send you a copy as an example.