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General Category => Equipment and Software => Topic started by: aparce on December 16, 2012, 07:15:25 AM

Title: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: aparce on December 16, 2012, 07:15:25 AM
Hello All,
I recently moved apartments and my gas stove in my new apartment is strangely weaker than the electric burner I was using in my old apartment. I am an extract brewer and have been fairly pleased with my results, I try as much as possible to do full volume (6 gallons starting for a 5 gallon recipe) boils. While my new stove is quite weak it does eventually get the wort to 100 C. However there is not that much motion on the surface and I definitely would not say the boil is "rolling." Is this a problem? Is there a benefit to having a vigorous boil or is the fact that the wort is 100 degrees sufficient? Also if it helps, I am getting a decent hot break.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: yso191 on December 16, 2012, 01:27:37 PM
There needs to be some action, some turn-over of the wort during boil.  Much more is not necessary.  Some of it is kinetics: hot break, where proteins run into each other and stick, and moving around helps get rid of DMS. 

Steve
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: dcbc on December 16, 2012, 05:34:00 PM
Is DMS an issue with extract?
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: denny on December 16, 2012, 05:35:16 PM
Is DMS an issue with extract?

Don't think so.
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: yso191 on December 16, 2012, 08:31:13 PM
Is DMS an issue with extract?

Don't think so.

As much as I hesitate to contradict someone with so much more experience than I... I think it is an issue.  It is created wherever heat is applied in each step: mash and boil.

Steve
Title: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: denny on December 16, 2012, 09:24:50 PM
Is DMS an issue with extract?

Don't think so.

As much as I hesitate to contradict someone with so much more experience than I... I think it is an issue.  It is created wherever heat is applied in each step: mash and boil.

Steve

There have to be DMS precursors (SMM) in order for DMS to be formed.  Those are driven off when the extract is produced.
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: tom on December 17, 2012, 01:23:52 AM
+1, there is a finite supply of SMM.  Once it is boiled off, it is gone.
And SMM/DMS is only a worry in pale-colored malts like pilsner malts.  With any malt as dark or darker than pale ale malt it's not a concern.
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: tschmidlin on December 17, 2012, 04:23:33 AM
There's no reason your gas stove should be that weak though - are you sure the gas pressure is where it is supposed to be?  It doesn't sound to me like the stove is working the way it should.
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: Jimmy K on December 17, 2012, 01:33:58 PM
There's no reason your gas stove should be that weak though - are you sure the gas pressure is where it is supposed to be?  It doesn't sound to me like the stove is working the way it should.
I used to have problems boiling 4G on my gas stove. I now have an electric stove that boils 6g easily. Different burner powers.
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: tschmidlin on December 17, 2012, 05:32:35 PM
There's no reason your gas stove should be that weak though - are you sure the gas pressure is where it is supposed to be?  It doesn't sound to me like the stove is working the way it should.
I used to have problems boiling 4G on my gas stove. I now have an electric stove that boils 6g easily. Different burner powers.
Weird, my electric stoves were always way under powered.  But then I started brewing outside long before we had a gas stove, so I guess I can't directly compare the two.
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: morticaixavier on December 17, 2012, 05:43:18 PM
There's no reason your gas stove should be that weak though - are you sure the gas pressure is where it is supposed to be?  It doesn't sound to me like the stove is working the way it should.
I used to have problems boiling 4G on my gas stove. I now have an electric stove that boils 6g easily. Different burner powers.
Weird, my electric stoves were always way under powered.  But then I started brewing outside long before we had a gas stove, so I guess I can't directly compare the two.

some of the newer electric stoves are beasts. I have a BIG element on my electric stove, meant for big pasta pot type boils that will make water jump out of the pot. It's about 14-16 inches across and if you crank it you can feel the heat across the kitchen.
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: tschmidlin on December 17, 2012, 05:51:00 PM
some of the newer electric stoves are beasts. I have a BIG element on my electric stove, meant for big pasta pot type boils that will make water jump out of the pot. It's about 14-16 inches across and if you crank it you can feel the heat across the kitchen.
:o
That is a huge element.  I never had (and have never seen) an electric burner more than half that size.
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: Jimmy K on December 17, 2012, 08:31:22 PM
There's no reason your gas stove should be that weak though - are you sure the gas pressure is where it is supposed to be?  It doesn't sound to me like the stove is working the way it should.
I used to have problems boiling 4G on my gas stove. I now have an electric stove that boils 6g easily. Different burner powers.
Weird, my electric stoves were always way under powered.  But then I started brewing outside long before we had a gas stove, so I guess I can't directly compare the two.

some of the newer electric stoves are beasts. I have a BIG element on my electric stove, meant for big pasta pot type boils that will make water jump out of the pot. It's about 14-16 inches across and if you crank it you can feel the heat across the kitchen.
Yeah, I have two large burners (same diameter) with a 0-10 knob. On one I saute in the 6-8 range. On the other I must keep it below 3 or scorch everything. I only go higher to boil water.
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: hubie on December 18, 2012, 08:29:42 PM

There have to be DMS precursors (SMM) in order for DMS to be formed.  Those are driven off when the extract is produced.

I've wondered about this.  When I make a starter with DME and boil it for 10 minutes on the stove, why do I get hot break?  I figured that would have been taken care at the maltster as well.
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: morticaixavier on December 18, 2012, 08:52:51 PM
some of the newer electric stoves are beasts. I have a BIG element on my electric stove, meant for big pasta pot type boils that will make water jump out of the pot. It's about 14-16 inches across and if you crank it you can feel the heat across the kitchen.
:o
That is a huge element.  I never had (and have never seen) an electric burner more than half that size.

Okay, looking at it once I got home it's maybe 12-14 inches across but it is still a beast. The other three elements on the stove are LED based I think, looking at them they appear to be clusters of small elements in the traditional spiral pattern but the big one looks like a classic one piece element, just under the surface glass.
Title: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: denny on December 19, 2012, 07:24:50 PM

There have to be DMS precursors (SMM) in order for DMS to be formed.  Those are driven off when the extract is produced.

I've wondered about this.  When I make a starter with DME and boil it for 10 minutes on the stove, why do I get hot break?  I figured that would have been taken care at the maltster as well.

You get hot break because there's proteins there.
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: redbeerman on December 20, 2012, 02:51:25 PM

There have to be DMS precursors (SMM) in order for DMS to be formed.  Those are driven off when the extract is produced.

I've wondered about this.  When I make a starter with DME and boil it for 10 minutes on the stove, why do I get hot break?  I figured that would have been taken care at the maltster as well.

Malt extracts still contain the proteins from the grain mash.  The extraction process only removes water and volatile compounds (SMM, for instance).
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: hubie on December 20, 2012, 08:22:40 PM
I thought when they made malt extract that they took wort through the boil, so I always figured that the proteins should have coagulated out.
Title: Re: Rolling boil gathers no moss...?
Post by: redbeerman on December 21, 2012, 07:28:29 PM
You are correct.  They actually produce the extract (liquid) under vacuum evaporation so that the boiling point is a lower temperature, thus no scorching.  Dry extract is usually spray dried.

Link to BYO article on extract making.

http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/30-extract-brewing/1106-making-malt-extract (http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/30-extract-brewing/1106-making-malt-extract)