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Other than Brewing => All Things Food => Topic started by: phillamb168 on January 04, 2013, 09:09:50 AM

Title: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 04, 2013, 09:09:50 AM
My wife got me a Christmas present of a 1-day 'stage' at a 50-seat restaurant in Paris. The deal is, I get to pick the menu, help put it together, and help out during service. I've asked the owner about serving beer (hey, it's a restaurant in Paris... I'd be lucky if they have a few musty bottles of 1664 in the back) and he is OK with it.

So here's my menu, and the beers I'm thinking about pairing each item up with. What do you think? What should I change?

Entree:
Crostini de foie de volaille avec sa salade
Chicken Liver toasts
>>Ruination Rye IPA? I had the Rye IPA with some saucisson sec last week and the "spice"-yness of both worked REALLY well together.

Plat:
Poulet Frit, Blette à cardes sautees, mais a la creme
Fried Chicken, Sauteed Swiss Chard, Homestyle Creamed Corn
>>Perhaps a Munich Helles? Or I could go all the way with a Hoppy Christmas or Hardcore IPA from Brewdog

Dessert:
Creme de pistache de ma Tante Helen (custard pistache, pistaches grilles, ananas, guimauves maison)
Green Goop a la my Aunt Helen
>>It's fairly sweet and after such a heavy main, I was thinking a Saison Dupont, or something light, dry and highly carbed?
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: jeffy on January 04, 2013, 11:26:19 AM
I think the Saison would pare better with the chicken course and an IPA with dessert.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: euge on January 04, 2013, 01:11:17 PM
Yeah you need sweet on sweet with most desserts unless it's citrus based. Otherwise the beverage loses it's effect.

How about a sweet-stout or coffee stout with the custard?

And you're getting fried chicken and creamed corn? I think the Saison would go well with this. And can you get decent fried chicken in Paris?
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 04, 2013, 01:23:38 PM
Yeah you need sweet on sweet with most desserts unless it's citrus based. Otherwise the beverage loses it's effect.

How about a sweet-stout or coffee stout with the custard?

And you're getting fried chicken and creamed corn? I think the Saison would go well with this. And can you get decent fried chicken in Paris?

You can if I'm cookin' it! Using Thomas Keller's fried chicken from Ad Hoc At Home, with a 24-hr brine
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: euge on January 04, 2013, 02:32:06 PM
How about cream gravy? Ahem *Bechamel*

Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: erockrph on January 04, 2013, 06:59:07 PM
Main course needs Haffenreffer Private Stock  :P

For dessert I'd second the coffee stout idea. If you don't mind a sipper, then something like an English Barleywine or a Belgian Quad might be a good call as well. Maybe some Westie XII :)
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: denny on January 04, 2013, 10:14:51 PM
Here's some pairing info from the BA....

http://www.craftbeer.com/beer-and-food/pairing-tips/principles-of-matching

http://www.craftbeer.com/beer-and-food/pairing-tips/craft-beer-and-food-pairing-specifics

http://www.craftbeer.com/beer-and-food/pairing-tips/pairing-chart
Title: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: mpietropaoli on January 06, 2013, 04:02:58 AM
If its this badass of an experience (and it seems to be), pick up a copy of Brewmasters Table and read the $#!t out of it.  Garrett Oliver, while a bit pompous here and there, breaks it all down beautifully.  Such a great read and reference, and if u are going to have a monumental experience like this, it is a must.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: Alewyfe on January 06, 2013, 05:59:38 PM
I'm more interested in what's going on here. Who will the guests be? This is a pretty intriguing concept.
You pay the restaurant and they let you make diner?
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 07, 2013, 10:58:03 AM
I have a copy of Brewmaster's table, and have read it twice, and have yet to get anything concrete out of it. It's just too prose-y and abstract for my needs. I was hoping it would be a more in-depth 'scientific' discussion of why certain things in beer pair with certain things in food, but basically it was Garrett talking about how he loved Jenlain (Blech!) with Cassoulet.

The concept is, it's just a regular restaurant. You don't have to pay anything to be the chef, and you don't have to provide a list of guests. It's just a regular restaurant, that takes regular clients, but with the added benefit of an extra 10-20 covers brought in by whoever the guest chef is that day. Pretty good business model, really.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: euge on January 07, 2013, 01:46:10 PM
Do you bring in the food (ingredients) or does the chef order it?
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 07, 2013, 03:01:16 PM
Do you bring in the food (ingredients) or does the chef order it?

They buy the ingredients, and where things need to be special ordered I can provide them with the contact info of whoever it is that can provide the ingredients. And on top of everything I get a free chef jacket. It really costs nothing more than sharing a few recipes.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: kramerog on January 07, 2013, 03:15:24 PM
I have both Brewmaster's Table and Randy Mosher's Tasting Beer.  I like Tasting Beer more, but I use both when I do beer and food pairings.

"Stage" = "apprenticeship" or "internship"?

The fried chicken course pairing is an interesting one.  How about a beer with DMS to match the creamed corn?  Without knowing more Helles might be the best choice. A Saison might work too depending on the spicing in the batter.  How spicy is the fried chicken and what are the dominant spices?  Why limit yourself to one beer for the main course?

Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 07, 2013, 03:30:20 PM
I have both Brewmaster's Table and Randy Mosher's Tasting Beer.  I like Tasting Beer more, but I use both when I do beer and food pairings.

"Stage" = "apprenticeship" or "internship"?

The fried chicken course pairing is an interesting one.  How about a beer with DMS to match the creamed corn?  Without knowing more Helles might be the best choice. A Saison might work too depending on the spicing in the batter.  How spicy is the fried chicken and what are the dominant spices?  Why limit yourself to one beer for the main course?

Well technically, a stage is typically an internship/apprenticeship (there's not much difference imo) but this is only a one-day thing. Still, they show you how to estimate how much to order, how many people will eat this or that, how to stagger plating and preparing so everything goes out at once, etc. Basically little tips that will really help me cook better.

The fried chicken will be exactly 0 on the spice meter. Your average French person cannot handle even smoked paprika in reasonable quantities, and tabasco is considered a very very hot sauce. I'm using Keller's recipe for fried chicken: http://momofukufor2.com/2010/03/ad-hoc-buttermilk-fried-chicken-recipe

I was thinking Helles because I grew up with fried chicken & Schlitz. Or at least my parents did.

How much of a good idea is doing the Sierra Nevada Rye with the chicken livers? They're both pretty powerful on the palate, but I don't want to destroy somebody's palate with all that hop. Bell's recommends their Best Brown Ale with liver, but as I can't get that here I was thinking to sub it with Brooklyn Brown.

I think the quad or barleywine is a good idea for dessert. Or could I get away with Traquair House Ale?
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: morticaixavier on January 07, 2013, 03:59:02 PM
I think the traquair house would be really yummy with desert but it is sweetish and if you want to cut the sweet and rich desert a little I like the idea of a farmhouse ale or a tripple or even a berliner weisse. sometimes a big sweet beer goes well with sweet desert but often I find really sweet on really sweet can muddle the flavour interactions and detract from both.

I am not sure what exactly the green goop ala aunt helen is but it sounds rich.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 07, 2013, 04:33:55 PM
I am not sure what exactly the green goop ala aunt helen is but it sounds rich.

Pistachio pudding w/ roasted pistachios, marshmallows, crushed pineapple.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: Alewyfe on January 07, 2013, 05:19:25 PM

The concept is, it's just a regular restaurant. You don't have to pay anything to be the chef, and you don't have to provide a list of guests. It's just a regular restaurant, that takes regular clients, but with the added benefit of an extra 10-20 covers brought in by whoever the guest chef is that day. Pretty good business model, really.

Now that does sound fun. Do they do their regular menu too or is it kind of a prix fix thing including the beers?
Darn right it's a good business model. I can see where this would be a blast.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: morticaixavier on January 07, 2013, 05:38:12 PM
I am not sure what exactly the green goop ala aunt helen is but it sounds rich.

Pistachio pudding w/ roasted pistachios, marshmallows, crushed pineapple.

yup, pretty rich. I like the idea of something light and refreshing with maybe a little funk. If you can get something with brett in the pineapple might play well with the fruity funky brett.

I like the way a slightly tart spritzy beer cleanses the palette between tastes. A big rich chocolate cake desert is the exception for me where a big chewy barley wine or strong scottish ale mingles with the chocolate and gives some caramel/toffee notes
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: Jimmy K on January 07, 2013, 08:26:32 PM
I prefer contrast in most beer parings, especially desert. I think a slightly tart wheat beer or even a not too tart sour beer would be great with that desert. The richer the desert, the better a tart beer can clear the palate for each next bite.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 08, 2013, 01:00:52 PM
Here we go:

Entree: Brooklyn Brown Ale
Main: Augustiner Helles
Dessert: either Boon Oude Geuze, or Hel & Verdoemenis from De Molen.

That way people who aren't big sour fans can go with something else.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: euge on January 08, 2013, 01:23:17 PM
Hell and Damnation!

Are you going to give some sort of talk/mention of the beer before each course?
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 08, 2013, 01:54:17 PM
Hell and Damnation!

Are you going to give some sort of talk/mention of the beer before each course?

I'd love to, but it's a regular restaurant and not everybody will be ordering my specific menu and not everybody will be ordering the beer pairings. We'll just include something on the menu, printed, I think.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: euge on January 08, 2013, 02:11:59 PM
So it won't be like a party then. Your friends will show up at their leisure and have dinner.

I read the recipe for the chicken. Will it be pan-fried or does the restaurant have a deep fryer?

Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 08, 2013, 03:14:48 PM
So it won't be like a party then. Your friends will show up at their leisure and have dinner.

I read the recipe for the chicken. Will it be pan-fried or does the restaurant have a deep fryer?

Nah, but I know my friends will like the food. What interests me more is seeing what the 'average jacques' reaction is.

I bet they have a deep fryer, but who knows what's going on with their oil. We'll play it by ear, but otherwise it'll be pan-fried.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: redbeerman on January 08, 2013, 03:34:57 PM
Pan-fried is traditional.  At least in western NC where my wife's family is from.  Her mom (and my wife as well) used to make awsome fried chicken with mashed potatoes and pan gravy.  Probably why I can't eat it anymore. :(
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: euge on January 08, 2013, 04:32:39 PM
Pan-fried and deep-fried are quite different. Pan-fried is denser crustier crunch and more homestyle. What really can make badass fried chicken is a pressure-fryer, and do it in 15 minutes rather than 30. Keller's recipe looks like it lends itself to pan frying.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 09, 2013, 09:00:24 AM
Pan-fried and deep-fried are quite different. Pan-fried is denser crustier crunch and more homestyle. What really can make badass fried chicken is a pressure-fryer, and do it in 15 minutes rather than 30. Keller's recipe looks like it lends itself to pan frying.

Well that wins it then... I prefer crunch!
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 15, 2013, 12:02:10 PM
Well, hmpf. Turns out that because this was going to be on a Sunday, the "brunch" that the restaurant offers means that my menu would only be served for the evening. A fact which was unmentioned to me until I called to confirm it with the restaurant. So all of the people that I told to reserve for lunch, would have arrived expecting to try my menu but instead been told that it wasn't available. Adding insult to injury, when my wife called to see about a reservation, she was told that the menu isn't available for lunch, but would be there for dinner, however, a friend called to reserve for lunch, and was told the opposite - that the menu would be available for lunch but not dinner.

So I cancelled the whole thing. Not all is lost, however, because the guy who owns the bar that I sometimes cook for (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/19965) said he'd be happy to have me cook whatever it was I was going to cook for them, for lunch. And in seeing opportunity where some might see defeat, now we're trying to work out a monthly pop-up brewpub concept, that would be an ongoing thing. Pretty neat!
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: Jimmy K on January 15, 2013, 02:21:36 PM
I'm still amazed this is even possible.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 15, 2013, 03:00:22 PM
I'm still amazed this is even possible.

Which part?
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: Jimmy K on January 15, 2013, 03:24:06 PM
I'm still amazed this is even possible.
Which part?

Getting to design a menu for a restaurant sounded really cool and something I've never heard of. The 'pop-up brewpub' concept blew my mind.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 15, 2013, 03:52:50 PM
I'm still amazed this is even possible.
Which part?

Getting to design a menu for a restaurant sounded really cool and something I've never heard of. The 'pop-up brewpub' concept blew my mind.

Ah, nice :) Thanks! We'll see how it goes.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 16, 2013, 04:11:51 PM
Facebook event:
https://www.facebook.com/events/145441738944521
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: euge on January 16, 2013, 08:20:31 PM
I am jealous of your proximity to Paris...
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: Jimmy K on January 16, 2013, 11:31:34 PM
Facebook event:
https://www.facebook.com/events/145441738944521 (https://www.facebook.com/events/145441738944521)
I'd say yes, but it's a long drive (and wet).
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 17, 2013, 12:38:34 PM
I am jealous of your proximity to Paris...

meh
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: euge on January 18, 2013, 03:21:28 AM
I am jealous of your proximity to Paris...

meh

Ah but I see proximity has jaded you!
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 21, 2013, 10:53:09 AM
Lunch went SUPER well. Had 21 people in total, not a lot, but enough to recuperate costs. Next month, Garrett Oliver is coming to Paris, and we're going to try to get him to be at the beer lunch then. On the menu: Jambalaya?
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: euge on January 21, 2013, 05:32:24 PM
Bien!

Or Gumbo!
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: bluesman on January 21, 2013, 05:53:44 PM
Sounds like a fun challenge phil. I think your pairings sound decent enough unless you want to go out on a limb and take some chances. However, your pairings seem like they'll work fine.

Best of luck to you!
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 22, 2013, 11:09:56 AM
Sounds like a fun challenge phil. I think your pairings sound decent enough unless you want to go out on a limb and take some chances. However, your pairings seem like they'll work fine.

Best of luck to you!

I am ALL about going out on limbs ron - what would you recommend?

Here's the link to the event ticket site: http://sundaybeerlunch2.brownpapertickets.com/

And here's the menu - what do you think?
Entree: mini fried oyster po-boys w/ remoulade; brooklyn brewery pils
Main: jambalaya with smoked chicken & andouille; brooklyn EIPA
Dessert: Apple Fritters; brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout

I dunno if any of you guys know Cajun music, but we're going to have Sarah Savoy over as well to play some cajun music. She's the daughter of Marc and Ann Savoy (they are pretty well known accordionists).

We'll also have a HOT SAUCE BAR.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: jeffy on January 22, 2013, 12:38:19 PM
That was an excellent call on the jambalaya paired with East India IPA.  It sounds delicious.
Not sure about the stout with desert though.  It's hard to imagine the roastiness of the beer going with the sweetness of the fritters or the chocolate flavors going well with apples.  I think something lighter would go better with the fritters, maybe Sarachi Ace, since you seem to be on a Brooklyn theme.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 22, 2013, 01:18:07 PM
That was an excellent call on the jambalaya paired with East India IPA.  It sounds delicious.
Not sure about the stout with desert though.  It's hard to imagine the roastiness of the beer going with the sweetness of the fritters or the chocolate flavors going well with apples.  I think something lighter would go better with the fritters, maybe Sarachi Ace, since you seem to be on a Brooklyn theme.

If I can get it - there are only a small number of Sorachis coming up via container, otherwise they don't have distribution here yet.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 22, 2013, 01:19:33 PM
What I like about the stout idea is the roastiness, which would hopefully give a bit of coffee to it, and that makes you think 'apple pie and coffee' which is a fun combo. Perhaps a coffee stout instead...
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: Vin S on January 22, 2013, 02:31:17 PM
Phil, the chocolate stout is alittle more chocolate than coffee so like there web site says cheese cake or fruit tart or vanilla ice cream would work well. The menu sounds delish.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: erockrph on January 22, 2013, 04:36:01 PM
Maybe an oyster stout with the po' boy? Apple fritters make me think of an accessible, backsweetened sour like Duchesse or Faro.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 23, 2013, 10:59:26 AM
Definitely will keep those in mind in case Garrett can't come. In which case I'll keep the saison and the EIPA but drop the black.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on January 24, 2013, 01:24:16 PM
:-D

http://parisbymouth.com/pop-up-brew-pub-pairs-craft-beer-comfort-food (http://parisbymouth.com/pop-up-brew-pub-pairs-craft-beer-comfort-food)
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: redbeerman on January 24, 2013, 02:38:56 PM
Very cool, Phil!
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: tschmidlin on January 24, 2013, 07:04:45 PM
That's great Phil, congratulations!
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: thetooth on January 25, 2013, 07:43:47 PM
Nice, Phil!  Looks like it went great!
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on February 11, 2013, 02:48:16 PM
52 people came out to our second event yesterday. Lots of work, but also lots of fun. App was three mini-sandwiches: pimento cheese, muffuletta, & shrimp remoulade; main was Jambalaya; dessert was drunken-apricot beignets served with a chicory creme anglaise. Beers were: Saison Dupont, Brooklyn East India Pale Ale, and Meantime Chocolate Porter. Had a journalist from the WSJ request an interview. Crazy times for a country that traditionally doesn't do beer with food.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: tschmidlin on February 13, 2013, 08:20:40 AM
That's awesome Phil, very exciting. :)
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: theoman on February 13, 2013, 12:15:47 PM
Congrats! That's way cool.
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: redbeerman on February 13, 2013, 12:26:49 PM
Sounds yummy, Phil!  Very cool!
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: euge on February 13, 2013, 03:13:30 PM
Chef Lamb...

Has a nice ring to it. ;D
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on February 13, 2013, 03:24:36 PM
Got some photos I can post...

(http://philliplamb.com/IMG_4225.jpg)
trio of sandwiches

(http://philliplamb.com/IMG_4253.jpg)
Jambalaya

(http://philliplamb.com/IMG_4254.jpg)
The band

(http://philliplamb.com/IMG_4286.jpg)
Beignets & Chicory Creme Anglaise
Title: Re: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: euge on February 13, 2013, 09:11:07 PM
So do you find the French interested or fascinated in things American? Or is it only just a novelty to them in regards to food? BTW being interviewed by the WSJ is no small thing!

Congrats again. Looks lovely.
Title: Beer dinner pairings help
Post by: phillamb168 on February 14, 2013, 07:04:17 AM
So do you find the French interested or fascinated in things American? Or is it only just a novelty to them in regards to food? BTW being interviewed by the WSJ is no small thing!

Congrats again. Looks lovely.

The French who were there were very interested in seeing what 'real' American cuisine looked like. This was a funny thing Garrett mentioned as well, that when he goes to Europe and wants to cook all sorts of fancy French food for the beer pairings, everybody says, "OK, but could you make a real hamburger too?" - the things that pass for "authentic" American food around here...

Which is probably why we had 80% Americans and only 20% French. All of the Americans that came did so because they told me they really missed home cooking.