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Other than Brewing => The Pub => Topic started by: dean on February 26, 2010, 12:48:25 PM

Title: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: dean on February 26, 2010, 12:48:25 PM
Its been all over the news since yesterday (when I first saw it anyway) about the trainer that was killed by one of the killer whales.  I don't get it, what are they waiting for?  If it was a dog, it would be put to sleep, if it was a bull it would be put down.  I suppose people are concerned about the whale, its not a domestic animal so it never should have been put into a fish aquarium for people to watch in the first place.  Its learned a behavior and its not good (three incidents now)... it can never be released, they should put it to sleep... and hopefully learn from it.  If people want to see a wild creature, go into the wild to see it... or watch a flick about them. 

Think about RabidDingo's post with the list of rules... objects that choke children and wearing seat belts etc... what are people thinking when they do the things they do?  Have you ever seen how a large cat observes its prey... their focus is INTENSE.... take your kids to a zoo and see what the big cats are focusing on... keep your children close.   People are strange... they speak with forked tongues... or they just make rules for other people.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: majorvices on February 26, 2010, 12:51:46 PM
Well, I suspect the reason they don't put the whale down may have something to do with $$$$.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: dean on February 26, 2010, 01:06:04 PM
I'm sure you're right Keith.  That doesn't make it right though does it?  Having money or worth seems to be able to make it right to break a lot of rules doesn't it.  Oh well, common sense is the best rule and thats the rule I would follow, it would've been cut into steaks by now if it were mine, or at the very least a large hole would have been dug.

Once could be an accident.
Twice might be a fluke.
Three times... its a trend... I believe this whale is a serial killer.  Its time (overdue) for a fish fry.  jmo...
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: babalu87 on February 26, 2010, 01:34:04 PM
Killer whales
The first word in the name should be a clue?

The only reason they dont kill more people is because people dont swim in waters they commonly frequent.

Would you get in a cage with a T-Rex?

This is a Killer whales skeleton:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Orca_Schaedel_Senckenberg.jpg/800px-Orca_Schaedel_Senckenberg.jpg)

Bud runs a tight ship, cost cutting measures are all over their company.
ROFL at the fact that they are using this one for breeding.
Yeah, that outta work out well..............................................

Put it in a truck
Drive it to Vancouver Island
LET
IT
GO

Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: beerocd on February 26, 2010, 01:40:37 PM
Why is it at all the animal's fault that he did what comes naturally to him? It's a wild animal, in captivity - trained like a circus animal. When the animal acts "natural" - we're shocked and call for it's murder. BTW: they just said 2Million is the animal's worth.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: babalu87 on February 26, 2010, 01:46:07 PM
Why is it at all the animal's fault that he did what comes naturally to him? It's a wild animal, in captivity - trained like a circus animal. When the animal acts "natural" - we're shocked and call for it's murder. BTW: they just said 2Million is the animal's worth.


This

KILLER whale

I know everyone thinks of Flipper when they see a Dolphin/Porpoise but they can be a NASTY ANIMAL
NASTY
Besides humans and chimps Dolphins are another known mammal that kills for the sport of it.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: dean on February 26, 2010, 01:50:14 PM
I agree partially, its not the animals fault... he has become what he is because he is captive.  Killer Whales don't "normally" attack humans in the wild though, they are actually very intelligent and more curious about humans than thinking of them as something to eat.  But with that said, I'm only gaging that on the many documentaries I've watched.  I love documentaries, particularly about wildlife.  This whale can never be released, sad to say, he is likely to repeat his behaviour in the wild.  jmo....
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: bluesman on February 26, 2010, 01:56:40 PM
I believe confining any creature to a space other than it's natural habitat is inhumane. I think major called it out...it's all about $$$

Money and greed.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: tygo on February 26, 2010, 02:00:00 PM
 This whale can never be released, sad to say, he is likely to repeat his behaviour in the wild.  jmo....

Well, at least in the wild he wouldn't have a tasty human snack standing on his nose as he performs acrobatic maneuvers for several hours a day.  This is a six ton predator with a mouthful of very big teeth.  If you play around with them long enough something bad might just happen.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: dean on February 26, 2010, 02:15:42 PM
 This whale can never be released, sad to say, he is likely to repeat his behaviour in the wild.  jmo....

Well, at least in the wild he wouldn't have a tasty human snack standing on his nose as he performs acrobatic maneuvers for several hours a day.  This is a six ton predator with a mouthful of very big teeth.  If you play around with them long enough something bad might just happen.

True, but I don't think I'd want to go swimming at the beech either.   ;)
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: MrNate on February 26, 2010, 03:18:09 PM
I agree with Beerocd.

To quote Chris Rock, "That tiger didn't go crazy, that tiger went TIGER. A tiger on a unicycle, now THAT's crazy."

Killer whales eat a lot of roughly human-sized mammals. Put it in a tank with a human-sized mammal that you don't want it to eat, well... don't act all shocked when the predictable occurs.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: dean on February 26, 2010, 03:22:53 PM
Agreed, but I wouldn't let Ted Bundy or Charles Manson out so they could teach children or young adults their craft either.     
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: MrNate on February 26, 2010, 03:38:59 PM
No, I'm not suggesting they let it go at all. I'm saying they should keep it. The fact that the killer whale has now officially killed shouldn't change anything. What's the difference between "Will probably kill someone" and "has killed someone?" Nothing. It was a killer before, it's a killer now, and it will always be a killer.

Anthropomorphising the whale only introduces moral dilemmas.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: babalu87 on February 26, 2010, 03:42:20 PM
Agreed, but I wouldn't let Ted Bundy or Charles Manson out so they could teach children or young adults their craft either.     

MUCH different

Let the thing go off Vancouver Island or Alaska somewhere and let nature takes its course.
Its not going to go all Jaws III and move down to Cali and start eating surfers
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: dean on February 26, 2010, 03:45:41 PM
Agreed, but I wouldn't let Ted Bundy or Charles Manson out so they could teach children or young adults their craft either.     

MUCH different

Let the thing go off Vancouver Island or Alaska somewhere and let nature takes its course.
Its not going to go all Jaws III and move down to Cali and start eating surfers

Well, to quote MrNate.... don't be all shocked when the predictable occurs.   ;)
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: redbeerman on February 26, 2010, 03:54:59 PM
I think killer whale pretty much says it all.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: MrNate on February 26, 2010, 03:55:17 PM
Just a point in fact - Killer whales do frequent the CA coastline. I would hazard a guess that they don't attack surfers because their bellies are full of gray whale. You don't take potshots at the rabbits when there's a bull elk in front of you.

Also a fun fact - I've actually seen a mommy Orca teach her young'uns how to hunt by trapping a baby gray whale in the shallows with the Orca pod standing guard at the perimeter, while the juvenile Orcas went in over and over to try to take the gray down as a pack.

They are highly intelligent, utterly ruthless creatures. But they're still just creatures.  
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: dean on February 26, 2010, 04:02:48 PM
Spot on MrNate!  I agree!

But a rogue will teach some juveniles a new food item and tactic along those same coastlines.  From one of the quotes today, "never leave fish to find fish."   ;)
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: babalu87 on February 26, 2010, 04:06:11 PM
Just a point in fact - Killer whales do frequent the CA coastline. I would hazard a guess that they don't attack surfers because their bellies are full of gray whale. You don't take potshots at the rabbits when there's a bull elk in front of you.

Also a fun fact - I've actually seen a mommy Orca teach her young'uns how to hunt by trapping a baby gray whale in the shallows with the Orca pod standing guard at the perimeter, while the juvenile Orcas went in over and over to try to take the gray down as a pack.

They are highly intelligent, utterly ruthless creatures. But they're still just creatures.  

This I know, look up the LA pod, I think they are bloods  ;D

However, if the whale from Sea World is put way up in Alaska where during the Salmon run when it could join up with another pack I dont think Cali surfers have anything to worry about
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: nicneufeld on February 26, 2010, 04:06:20 PM
I think a big part of why we envision them as gentle creatures is their looks.  The black and white "paint job" has a sort of cute cuddliness to it, moreso than a shark.  Silly, but I imagine it is a factor at least.

There was a slightly amusing South Park about this last season.  Anyway, I bet if they harvested this whale and sold the meat to the Japanese, they could at least get a pretty penny for it, if not recoup their losses.  The Japanese aren't particularly squeamish about eating anything that swims.

The funniest/saddest thing I read was a news report that said the trainer "drowned" in an "incident" with the whale.  Like there was this accidental happening that occurred during a minor verbal dispute with the whale or something.  They can't just say what happened, the whale attacked and killed the person.  Not a huge deal, I don't fault the animal particularly, but they shouldn't be putting trainers into a pen with it any more and charging for admission.  We put dogs down every minute of every day.  This is no different except for all the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: MrNate on February 26, 2010, 04:13:37 PM
Well, the trainer did drown. That's how they kill most of their prey. But my point is that there's a fundamental difference between a dog and an orca - The dog is domesticated. It's presumed to not be a threat until proven otherwise, and is put down when it kills because of its easy access to the population at large.

This whale is presumed to be a killer, and is no threat to the population at large.

I agree that if this were a shark there would be no outcry because, well, duh! you were swimming with a shark! Cute and cuddly looking does make a difference in public opinion.

And I've never been a fan of releasing captive animals to the wild, unless it was a very short period of captivity. It's not good for the animal and it's not good for the wild.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: MrNate on February 26, 2010, 04:22:36 PM
Holy mary, I just googled the LA pod!

That's crazy!
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: maxieboy on February 26, 2010, 04:39:50 PM
I believe confining any creature to a space other than it's natural habitat is inhumane.

Absolutely. Not a fan of zoos.  :(
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: dean on February 26, 2010, 04:46:23 PM
The LA Pod is very interesting, its described or implied that they may be a new species or subspecies... behaving differently as well as having different physical configuration than other killer whales.    

How true this is... who knows?

http://great-white-shark.blogspot.com/2007/01/gang-of-killer-whales-killed-great.html
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: babalu87 on February 26, 2010, 04:50:22 PM
Holy mary, I just googled the LA pod!

That's crazy!

Rat a tat tat I wonder if the swim with a Gat  ;D

Trainer drowned because thats what Orca do with prey of that size
They drown it, then shake it soft and swallow it whole.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: denny on February 26, 2010, 05:02:12 PM
Why is it at all the animal's fault that he did what comes naturally to him? It's a wild animal, in captivity - trained like a circus animal. When the animal acts "natural" - we're shocked and call for it's murder. BTW: they just said 2Million is the animal's worth.


He was the prime male for their breeding stock.  I find it repugnant that that trumps human safety.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: dean on February 26, 2010, 05:26:32 PM
I didn't know they were able to breed Killer Whales in captivity?  Wow, I guess I need to catch up on some documentaries or research it some more.  Seems that Bud (Budweiser?) has definitely made a load of money on this whale and wants to keep the cash rolling in... just more greed thats all.  When will it stop and why is it allowed, exploitation of wildlife?

All animals kept for stud become agressive in time.  A person only needs to talk to farmers and they'll walk away with a lot of knowlege from their centuries of experience.   

How do you spell bologna?   ;D
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: a10t2 on February 26, 2010, 05:32:17 PM
I believe confining any creature to a space other than it's natural habitat is inhumane.
Absolutely. Not a fan of zoos.  :(

Or dogs, right? ;)
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: dbeechum on February 26, 2010, 05:32:53 PM
Seems that Bud (Budweiser?) has definitely made a load of money on this whale and wants to keep the cash rolling in...

A-B Inbev divested itself of Busch Entertainment last year and has no interest/stake in the running of any of the Sea World / Busch Garden parks anymore - aside from the beer concession that they negotiated into the sale.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: beerocd on February 26, 2010, 06:25:18 PM

He was the prime male for their breeding stock.  I find it repugnant that that trumps human safety.

Whale is as Whale does. -Forrest Gump

Humans created this mess - not the whale.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: akr71 on February 26, 2010, 06:42:15 PM
Humans created this mess - not the whale.

+1

These creatures can live up to 90 years in the wild.  I would imagine by now some pods have a much deserved mis-trust of humans.

Has no one seen the movie "Orca" (1977)?  I saw it on TV as a kid...
"A hunter squares off against a killer whale seeking vengeance for the death of its mate"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076504/
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: denny on February 26, 2010, 06:53:48 PM

He was the prime male for their breeding stock.  I find it repugnant that that trumps human safety.

Whale is as Whale does. -Forrest Gump

Humans created this mess - not the whale.

Agreed.  And it will be too bad if the whale has to pay for it.  But if the whale can't be "repatriated" (and maybe it can), it needs to be kept away from humans somehow.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: nicneufeld on February 26, 2010, 08:23:59 PM
For the record, the solution of putting the whale down isn't a judgement against the whale...they aren't "evil" for killing, they are natural, as I think we all agree.  But I don't see a huge difference, at least morally speaking, with putting down Willy any more than shooting a cougar that keeps encroaching on human settlements and attacking, or, for that matter, taking anti-bacterial medicine.  Two things set it apart, principally...a sort of anthropomorphizing orca-love that makes us love to put these animals in cages and teach them tricks and imagine they are peaceful doves of the sea, and as keeps getting mentioned, $$$.  I would say the former is a myopic view that denies a wild animal its natural wildness and really is only self-delusion, and the latter, well, in a cold-hearted way its very practical admittedly, but rather insulting and degrading to the families of those that these animals (quite naturally) kill.  Obviously if that trainer had (perhaps even accidentally!) killed that orca the company would be much more likely to fire her than they are to get rid of the attacking whale, and although that's a silly analogy, the point is to the bean counters, the whale is vastly more valuable than the human.

EDIT: and if there is a good way to quarantine the animal without killing it, that's great!  I certainly wouldn't advocate killing the animal as some sort of misguided "revenge" for taking a human life, I just want to make that clear!
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: beerocd on February 27, 2010, 12:54:23 AM
But I don't see a huge difference, at least morally speaking, with putting down Willy any more than shooting a cougar that keeps encroaching on human settlements and attacking, or, for that matter, taking anti-bacterial medicine.

In your example the cougar and the viruses are not captured, trained, and played with for the enjoyment of humans at vast profit to the owners.(as you also said in your post) Killing the whale in this instance is not necessary for survival or safety. Just stay out of the tank!  ;)
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: capozzoli on February 27, 2010, 01:33:47 AM
Most of the people that go to see those Seaworld type shows think the animals are fish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NO8h_uTkdU

Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: dean on February 27, 2010, 01:47:12 AM
But I don't see a huge difference, at least morally speaking, with putting down Willy any more than shooting a cougar that keeps encroaching on human settlements and attacking, or, for that matter, taking anti-bacterial medicine.

In your example the cougar and the viruses are not captured, trained, and played with for the enjoyment of humans at vast profit to the owners.(as you also said in your post) Killing the whale in this instance is not necessary for survival or safety. Just stay out of the tank!  ;)


Beerocd, have you heard any of the news reports at all?  The trainer was not in the tank, he snatched her ponytail and pulled her in then drowned her... shaking her violently.  He didn't spit her out either.... they had to further contain him and force his mouth open to get her body out, in other words he didn't just think she was a piece of seaweed caught in his teeth.  The wale is a rogue now, as much as I'd like to think he can be kept safely... I doubt it very much.  Somebody will have to feed him if nothing else, it would be more humane to put him to sleep.

Either way, somebody is going to get sued I'm sure... everybody pays the fiddler, one way or another. 
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: weazletoe on February 27, 2010, 02:21:12 AM
 I grew up not 45 mins from Sea World of Aurora Ohio. I was even in the grandstands the day the boat crashed in. (just google my name, Barry Benoit) I will freely admit, I loved the Shamu Show, though I had mixed feelings about keeping a whale in a pen. I think it all goes back to what has been sated already.he name KILLER whale.
  When he lion tamer sticks his head in the lions mouth, and the lion chomps down, you can' get mad a the lion. I slam my mouth shut too when you stick food in it. Shamu does he same when you put food in or near his tank. Yeah, it's sad, but those trainers go in know they are taking a risk, working with KILLER whales.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: tygo on February 27, 2010, 03:10:49 AM
+1 to Weazletoe.  If you're one of those trainers you have to know you're playing with fire.  Or in this case playing with a 7000 pound killing machine.  If the machine does what it's designed to do you really can't blame it.  I don't think this whale is any more likely to kill someone than he was before.  He's not a "premeditated killer".  He's a whale that eats stuff smaller than him in the food chain.  Or more likely, a whale that plays with what it feels are toys.

Perhaps we shouldn't be using these animals as spectacles but I don't care to get on a high horse about that.  If we do use them as such then we need to accept the possibility that they will act in accordance with their nature, and we shouldn't punish them for that.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: bluesman on February 27, 2010, 03:53:17 AM
For years now we have defied the odds of Mother Nature and once again as the saying goes "Don't mess with Mother Nature".
We can't blame the whale, but we must learn from this unfortunate circumstance.

Free Willy!  ;)
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: beerocd on February 27, 2010, 04:02:53 AM
Beerocd, have you heard any of the news reports at all?

You mean news like this?
"[the] protocol was not to be around Tilikum's mouth while you're laying down" on the water-covered platform called the slide-out.

Lying down "is a very vulnerable position to be in with an animal like Tilikum," Lacinak continued. "And apparently her ponytail drifted into the water, he just opened his mouth, sucked it in and pulled her in the water."


How much of yourself would have to be in the tank for you to consider yourself in the tank Dean?
(BTW: I think this is a favorite sport for both of us - so let's not go ten pages  :P )
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: babalu87 on February 27, 2010, 05:15:07 AM
+1 to Weazletoe.  If you're one of those trainers you have to know you're playing with fire.  Or in this case playing with a 7000 pound killing machine. 

12,000lbs
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: majorvices on February 27, 2010, 12:20:19 PM

Agreed.  And it will be too bad if the whale has to pay for it.  But if the whale can't be "repatriated" (and maybe it can), it needs to be kept away from humans somehow.
[/quote]

How about the ocean? I can't understand why it is not let go. I mean, besides the cost factor.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: dean on February 27, 2010, 12:58:09 PM
Foxnews just had a report on it with whale and dolphin expert; Russ Rector, as their guest speaker.  He had warned them in a letter in 2007 that this would happen with this whale.   The whale had killed two other trainers in the past.  Killer Whales were not called Killer Whales until sometime in the 1960's, they were called "Whale Killers" but people wouldn't pay to see Whale Killers... so the name was reversed.  They are actually dolphins not whales and there are no documented accounts of them attacking humans in the wild.  Russ Rector said this Killer Whale IS a killer, and he did not make it sound like it could be repatriated.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: babalu87 on February 27, 2010, 01:41:25 PM
Foxnews just had a report on it with whale and dolphin expert; Russ Rector, as their guest speaker.  He had warned them in a letter in 2007 that this would happen with this whale.   The whale had killed two other trainers in the past.  Killer Whales were not called Killer Whales until sometime in the 1960's, they were called "Whale Killers" but people wouldn't pay to see Whale Killers... so the name was reversed.  They are actually dolphins not whales and there are no documented accounts of them attacking humans in the wild.  Russ Rector said this Killer Whale IS a killer, and he did not make it sound like it could be repatriated.

Their all Killers and the name Whale Killer wasnt correct anyway.
They dont exclusively kill whales.

I'm with Keith
Let it go
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: uthristy on February 27, 2010, 03:15:52 PM
http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/entertainment_tv_tvblog/2010/02/seaworld-tragedy-former-co-worker-tells-wftv-she-is-to-blame.html

WFTV-Channel 9 offered a provocative report today about the trainer’s death at SeaWorld.

A former co-worker told the station that trainer Dawn Brancheau was to blame when her hair floated over the mouth of killer whale Tilikum. The massive creature responded by dragging her under Wednesday, and she drowned.

Thad Lacinak, a former head trainer at SeaWorld, said the trainers knew to stay away from the whale’s mouth. “The protocol was not to be around Tilikum’s mouth while you’re laying down,” he said.

Reporter Emily Turner explained that Lacinak said Brancheau “became too comfortable with the animal she loved so much.”
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: tubercle on February 28, 2010, 11:27:25 PM
Tubercle doesn't like to see animals in captivity. I'm sure there has been some good from scientific study where certain species have been kept from going extinct and such but the dancing bear type expositions make me sick. I'm sure an animal doesn't like to be snatched out of its environment and placed into a captive one any more that a person would.
Title: Re: Sea World; Killer Whale
Post by: pinnah on February 28, 2010, 11:35:39 PM
the dancing bear type expositions make me sick. I'm sure an animal doesn't like to be snatched out of its environment and placed into a captive one any more that a person would.

pinnah feels the same way,

especially when said captive animal
is a highly social mammal that lives as long as we do. :'(