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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: AmandaK on January 07, 2013, 06:39:39 PM

Title: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: AmandaK on January 07, 2013, 06:39:39 PM
Here's a recipe I'm developing for a 'lower' alcohol, huge flavor IPA.

5 lb Crisp MO
4 lb Rahr 2-row
6oz C20
---------
15 minute additions:
1/3 oz each Citra, Galaxy, Centennial & Mosaic
1/2 oz Simcoe

Possible Hop Stand (or I'll wuss out and do a 5 minute addition):
2/3 oz each Citra, Galaxy, Centennial & Mosaic

Dry Hop:
1 oz each Citra, Galaxy, Centennial, Mosaic & Simcoe
---------
US-05 or equivalent


My question is about the hop stand - if I did it for 30 minutes, wouldn't my 15 minute addition be more like a 45 minute addition? And the hop stand be like a 30 minute addition? Or is this just a bad idea in the first place?

I'd like to get this right since I'm using some pretty awesome hops and don't want to waste them on a mediocre batch.

Cheers!
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: blatz on January 07, 2013, 06:43:53 PM
amanda - not passing the buck, but these two threads may help:

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=13803.msg174755#msg174755

http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=13564.msg172270#msg172270

In a word, yes, you should do them, and yes, your late kettle additions will get further isomerization, though the rate falls off as the temperature drops, so it isn't exactly 30+15 minutes = 45 minutes.  Your 15 minute boil addition might be more like a 30 minute addition, and so on...
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: AmandaK on January 07, 2013, 07:43:43 PM
Both very good reads! Thanks!

Although reading through the Ray Daniels pdf may have convinced me to do an 80 minute hop stand and a dry hop... maybe I'll leave out the Simcoe of the 15 min addition, add the other 4 hops at around 10 minutes left, hop stand for 80 minutes with the 5 hops, then dry hop with the same 5 hops for 3 days.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: erockrph on January 07, 2013, 07:50:18 PM
In general, if you're looking to really kick up the hop flavor and aroma, I would highly recommend a hop stand. You will get more bitterness, so you may want to move your late additions back by 5-10 minutes.
 
Unfortunately, there is some trial-and-error for dialing in the right level of hop bitterness for your process & system. A lower-gravity IPA may not be the best choice for your first attempt at calibrating your hop stand bitterness level, especially if you aren't using a 60-minute addition. A normal-gravity IPA is a little more forgiving if you overshoot your bitterness, especially if you have a good chunk of your IBU's coming at 60 minutes (early hops shouldn't be affected to any great extent by a hop stand).

Of course, if you don't care if you overshoot your bitterness a little bit, then a long hop stand is the way to go (I go for at least 60-80 minutes for IPA's). Lately I've been splitting my flameout hops in half. I add half before my hop stand and half before I start chilling. I can't say for sure if it makes that big of a difference, but I figure it gives me the best of both worlds.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: blatz on January 07, 2013, 07:51:49 PM
Both very good reads! Thanks!

Although reading through the Ray Daniels pdf may have convinced me to do an 80 minute hop stand and a dry hop... maybe I'll leave out the Simcoe of the 15 min addition, add the other 4 hops at around 10 minutes left, hop stand for 80 minutes with the 5 hops, then dry hop with the same 5 hops for 3 days.

why not just do a bittering addition (maybe 25-30 IBUs) with something clean - Warrior, Magnum, Apollo etc and then combine your listed 15 and hop stand amounts to do the extended hop stand?  that way you would truly get a sense of what a hop stand will do and then you can dial back from that in the future?
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: AmandaK on January 07, 2013, 08:16:32 PM
A normal-gravity IPA is a little more forgiving if you overshoot your bitterness, especially if you have a good chunk of your IBU's coming at 60 minutes (early hops shouldn't be affected to any great extent by a hop stand).

What would you consider a 'normal gravity' IPA? I should mention I've been getting 85-90% efficiency, so that grain bill will be around 6.1%. With beer calculus, this works out to be ~68 IBU? Idk how to calc IBUs in a hop stand - perhaps 18 minutes?

blatz, I considered a 60 minute with something clean, but I don't want it to be too bitter (okay, I don't want it to be harsh). I would like something like Lagunitas DayTime, if either of you have had that.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: beersk on January 07, 2013, 09:52:22 PM


blatz, I considered a 60 minute with something clean, but I don't want it to be too bitter (okay, I don't want it to be harsh). I would like something like Lagunitas DayTime, if either of you have had that.
My suggestion would be to first wort hop to 30 IBUs or less of a clean bittering hop. Then do your late/flame out additions. Hop stands are awesome. I believe Stone does this sort of thing for most all their beers, and most of us know how awesome those are.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: yso191 on January 07, 2013, 10:35:34 PM
What is a hop stand?

Steve
Title: Re: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: erockrph on January 07, 2013, 11:53:44 PM
What is a hop stand?

Steve

After adding your flameout hops you let your hops do a hot steep prior to chilling. This really increases hop flavor, but you will get some further hop utilization as well. Typical times range from 30 to 80 minutes.
Title: Re: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: erockrph on January 08, 2013, 12:01:07 AM
What would you consider a 'normal gravity' IPA? I should mention I've been getting 85-90% efficiency, so that grain bill will be around 6.1%. With beer calculus, this works out to be ~68 IBU? Idk how to calc IBUs in a hop stand - perhaps 18 minutes?

Gotcha. I think I misread your original email and assumed you were going in the "session" range. It's hard to judge how a hop stand is going to effect your utilization without experimenting on your system. If you're in the 6+ percent range, you should be fine just letting it ride. It's hard to over hop when you're getting to that range, especially if you're not bittering with Columbus or Chinook.

That is my palate however. YMMV
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: AmandaK on January 08, 2013, 12:22:12 AM


blatz, I considered a 60 minute with something clean, but I don't want it to be too bitter (okay, I don't want it to be harsh). I would like something like Lagunitas DayTime, if either of you have had that.
My suggestion would be to first wort hop to 30 IBUs or less of a clean bittering hop. Then do your late/flame out additions. Hop stands are awesome. I believe Stone does this sort of thing for most all their beers, and most of us know how awesome those are.

What utilization or 'minute mark' - if you will, do you use to calculate the IBUs from FWHing?

BTW, thank you guys so much for the encouragement!  ;D
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: erockrph on January 08, 2013, 01:25:32 AM


blatz, I considered a 60 minute with something clean, but I don't want it to be too bitter (okay, I don't want it to be harsh). I would like something like Lagunitas DayTime, if either of you have had that.
My suggestion would be to first wort hop to 30 IBUs or less of a clean bittering hop. Then do your late/flame out additions. Hop stands are awesome. I believe Stone does this sort of thing for most all their beers, and most of us know how awesome those are.

What utilization or 'minute mark' - if you will, do you use to calculate the IBUs from FWHing?

BTW, thank you guys so much for the encouragement!  ;D

Actual measured IBU's will be different, but the rule of thumb I follow is to treat it like a 20-minute addition. That's how my brewing software (http://brewersfriend.com (http://brewersfriend.com)) calculates it, and my palate tends to agree with this.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: blatz on January 08, 2013, 02:19:18 AM
My palate actually disagrees with that - I find if you treat it like a full boil bittering hop but expect it to be smoother and less harsh, you're good.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: markaberrant on January 08, 2013, 04:22:33 PM
Any thoughts on doing a seperate, smaller volume hop steep (in either wort or pre-boiled water), while continuing on with the standard quick chilling, then adding the steeped liquid to the fermenter?

Have also been reading the new IPA book.  1800s IPA brewers would often add the hops from the hopback back into the primary.  Was thinking about putting late addition hops in a hop bag, then putting hop bag in fermenter as well.  Has anyone tried this (commercial or homebrew), and reported on the results?
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: denny on January 08, 2013, 05:07:41 PM


blatz, I considered a 60 minute with something clean, but I don't want it to be too bitter (okay, I don't want it to be harsh). I would like something like Lagunitas DayTime, if either of you have had that.
My suggestion would be to first wort hop to 30 IBUs or less of a clean bittering hop. Then do your late/flame out additions. Hop stands are awesome. I believe Stone does this sort of thing for most all their beers, and most of us know how awesome those are.

What utilization or 'minute mark' - if you will, do you use to calculate the IBUs from FWHing?

BTW, thank you guys so much for the encouragement!  ;D

I count FWH as a 20 min. addition for bittering purposes.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: Kaiser on January 08, 2013, 07:41:59 PM
You can also reduce the temp to 80 C (~180F) for the hop stand. That will limit isomerization and DMS production.

That's what I do.

Kai
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: hoser on January 08, 2013, 07:55:32 PM
You can also reduce the temp to 80 C (~180F) for the hop stand. That will limit isomerization and DMS production.

That's what I do.

Kai

+1
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: hubie on January 08, 2013, 09:00:23 PM
You can also reduce the temp to 80 C (~180F) for the hop stand. That will limit isomerization and DMS production.

That's what I do.

Kai

Is there a minimum effective temperature?  Could you cold steep the hops overnight like some do with roasted grains?
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: tschmidlin on January 09, 2013, 06:47:06 AM
You can also reduce the temp to 80 C (~180F) for the hop stand. That will limit isomerization and DMS production.

That's what I do.

Kai

Is there a minimum effective temperature?  Could you cold steep the hops overnight like some do with roasted grains?
It depends on what kind of effect you are going for - different temps will have different effects.  So sure, you can cold steep the hops.  But it won't taste the same as doing a hot hop stand, for better or worse.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: AmandaK on January 09, 2013, 01:29:11 PM
You can also reduce the temp to 80 C (~180F) for the hop stand. That will limit isomerization and DMS production.

That's what I do.

Kai

Ooo. I like this. Might even have to break out the old immersion chiller for the occasion.   8)
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: mmitchem on January 09, 2013, 01:39:03 PM
You can also reduce the temp to 80 C (~180F) for the hop stand. That will limit isomerization and DMS production.

That's what I do.

Kai

IME this is particularly useful if you get your bitterness dialed in with your boil additions. Below 180F really lets you concentrate on aroma and flavor contribution.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on January 09, 2013, 02:32:12 PM
You can also reduce the temp to 80 C (~180F) for the hop stand. That will limit isomerization and DMS production.

That's what I do.

Kai

Ooo. I like this. Might even have to break out the old immersion chiller for the occasion.   8)

If you've got a plate chiller, just circulate the hot wort through until the kettle is <180F, then cut the cooling , add hops, and start the whirlpool. Let stand 20-30 min or as long as it takes you to get the fermenter ready, then cool-in as usual.

This process mirrors a professional brewery. I only use the "Hop Stand" because I use an immersion chiller and have to whirlpool after cooling.

I've gone away from the typical knockout addition and use that portion of the charge in the Hop Stand.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: AmandaK on January 09, 2013, 03:03:45 PM
You can also reduce the temp to 80 C (~180F) for the hop stand. That will limit isomerization and DMS production.

That's what I do.

Kai


Ooo. I like this. Might even have to break out the old immersion chiller for the occasion.   8)

If you've got a plate chiller, just circulate the hot wort through until the kettle is <180F, then cut the cooling , add hops, and start the whirlpool. Let stand 20-30 min or as long as it takes you to get the fermenter ready, then cool-in as usual.

This process mirrors a professional brewery. I only use the "Hop Stand" because I use an immersion chiller and have to whirlpool after cooling.

I've gone away from the typical knockout addition and use that portion of the charge in the Hop Stand.

I have a counterflow chiller set up where the wort drains (gravity, no pumps) from the kettle, to the CFC, then straight into the fermenter. Either way, the kettle I use is pretty wide (18-20" diameter), so I should get at least some heat loss if I decide that the IC is too much of a pain in my new apartment.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: yso191 on January 09, 2013, 05:13:48 PM
I can't wait to try this.  A question that occurs to me: is 180* sufficient to kill airborne spoilers?  I'm assuming a lid should be on the kettle during the stand at 180*, but more to the point, at what temperature does the wort transition to 'the cold side' and become vulnerable?

Steve
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: blatz on January 09, 2013, 05:15:48 PM
I can't wait to try this.  A question that occurs to me: is 180* sufficient to kill airborne spoilers?  I'm assuming a lid should be on the kettle during the stand at 180*, but more to the point, at what temperature does the wort transition to 'the cold side' and become vulnerable?

Steve

140* is the threshold, IIRC.

As one poster put it, you'll want to keep the lid on nonetheless because if you can smell the goodness on brewday, it won't be in the beer on drinking day. 

Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: AmandaK on January 11, 2013, 01:40:44 PM
So now the real question becomes, to dry hop in the primary after fermentation is done OR to dry hop in the keg?

I'm leaning towards dry hop in the keg.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: blatz on January 11, 2013, 02:08:10 PM
So now the real question becomes, to dry hop in the primary after fermentation is done OR to dry hop in the keg?

I'm leaning towards dry hop in the keg.

why not do both?  ;)
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: mmitchem on January 11, 2013, 02:17:37 PM
So now the real question becomes, to dry hop in the primary after fermentation is done OR to dry hop in the keg?

I'm leaning towards dry hop in the keg.

Dry hop in the primary at the very tail end of fermentation. Sweet yeast/hop oil magical flavor potion is created.
Title: Re: To Hop Stand or not to Hop Stand?
Post by: erockrph on January 11, 2013, 03:06:30 PM
So now the real question becomes, to dry hop in the primary after fermentation is done OR to dry hop in the keg?

I'm leaning towards dry hop in the keg.

why not do both?  ;)

+1 -  more hops is rarely a bad thing because:

Dry hop in the primary at the very tail end of fermentation. Sweet yeast/hop oil magical flavor potion is created.

+1 to this, especially after reading "For the Love of Hops"