Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => All Grain Brewing => Topic started by: davidgzach on January 19, 2013, 11:09:37 AM

Title: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: davidgzach on January 19, 2013, 11:09:37 AM
I was trying to hit 5.2 and used a little too much acid malt and hit 5.1.  What are the effects?

Dave
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: hopfenundmalz on January 19, 2013, 11:14:33 AM
Not much, the worst that could happen is that the beer might be slightly sharp in taste, I don't think it will end up tart.
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: davidgzach on January 19, 2013, 11:23:24 AM
Not much, the worst that could happen is that the beer might be slightly sharp in taste, I don't think it will end up tart.

Could that be a good thing for a Bohemian Pilsner?

Dave
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: nateo on January 19, 2013, 11:27:42 AM
5.1 is fine. I remember Kai saying something about how a higher mash pH can create a lower kettle pH. So the relationship between beer pH and mash pH isn't as intuitive as you might think.
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: denny on January 19, 2013, 12:12:28 PM
I wouldn't be as worried about the pH as about the effects of 5.2 on the beer flavor.
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: hoser on January 19, 2013, 12:29:17 PM
I wouldn't be as worried about the pH as about the effects of 5.2 on the beer flavor.

Denny, I thinking he was targeting a mash pH of 5.2, not using 5.2? Correct, David?  I think at 5.1 you'll be fine.  The enzymes may have to work a little harder for a little longer, but shouldn't be of concern.  If unsure, do a starch conversion test.  Plus, there is always a +/- on accuracy of pH meters, so you may be closer to 5.2 than 5.1? Conversely, you could be lower than 5.1 as well. :P.  Once, you sparge the pH of your wort and beer will be fine.  I have overshot an occasion more than once, but just dial back a little on acidifing the sparge water.  Beer was fine in the end.  RDWHAHB!
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: davidgzach on January 19, 2013, 12:41:21 PM
I wouldn't be as worried about the pH as about the effects of 5.2 on the beer flavor.

Denny, I thinking he was targeting a mash pH of 5.2, not using 5.2? Correct, David?  I think at 5.1 you'll be fine.  The enzymes may have to work a little harder for a little longer, but shouldn't be of concern.  If unsure, do a starch conversion test.  Plus, there is always a +/- on accuracy of pH meters, so you may be closer to 5.2 than 5.1? Conversely, you could be lower than 5.1 as well. :P.  Once, you sparge the pH of your wort and beer will be fine.  I have overshot an occasion more than once, but just dial back a little on acidifing the sparge water.  Beer was fine in the end.  RDWHAHB!

Hoser, that is correct.  I'm using acid malt, not 5.2 Stabilizer.  I don't use that stuff.

I actually did not acidify the sparge water so I think I'm good. Thanks!

Dave
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: mabrungard on January 19, 2013, 01:36:19 PM
Was that a room temp pH measurement?  5.2 is already on the low side if it was.  5.1 is more so.  The body might be decreased a bit since the wort fermentability will be higher.  It might be a little more tart, but if the sparging water was not acidified, maybe the kettle wort pH won't be that low. 
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: davidgzach on January 19, 2013, 01:46:52 PM
Hey Martin!  It was 5.1 at room temp.  Bru'n water told me to use much more Acid Malt than I was accustomed-1.8# to get to 5.2. 

Dave
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: mabrungard on January 20, 2013, 06:16:35 AM
Hey Martin!  It was 5.1 at room temp.  Bru'n water told me to use much more Acid Malt than I was accustomed-1.8# to get to 5.2. 

Dave

That is a problem with acid malt, it can be variable.  That is why I don't recommend it.  I'm more comfortable using lactic with a known strength. 

I welcome reports from any brewers about their results using  the amount of acid malt recommended by Bru'n Water and the resulting mash pH.  The acidity contribution that I've used in Bru'n Water was based on Weyermann's rule of thumb with 0.1 pH drop per percent of grist.  It could easily be off since I don't use that stuff and I haven't heard from anyone that does.  My ears are open!
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: davidgzach on January 20, 2013, 06:48:44 AM
Hey Martin!  It was 5.1 at room temp.  Bru'n water told me to use much more Acid Malt than I was accustomed-1.8# to get to 5.2. 

Dave

That is a problem with acid malt, it can be variable.  That is why I don't recommend it.  I'm more comfortable using lactic with a known strength. 

I welcome reports from any brewers about their results using  the amount of acid malt recommended by Bru'n Water and the resulting mash pH.  The acidity contribution that I've used in Bru'n Water was based on Weyermann's rule of thumb with 0.1 pH drop per percent of grist.  It could easily be off since I don't use that stuff and I haven't heard from anyone that does.  My ears are open!

Martin,

It was only off .1 and that is well within the margin of error for the PH tester.  I just wanted to let you know that the spreasheet asked for a lot of acid malt versus what I have used in the past.  I'm using it for all my brews now and it's a great tool.  Thanks again for putting it together!

Maybe it's time to just buy some lactic acid and take the guess work out of the equation like you said.  I've had good results from acid malt but why bother when I can be more precise?

Dave
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: Pawtucket Patriot on January 20, 2013, 07:18:49 AM
FWIW, I use Bru'n Water and I also use acid malt for any situation where I need to lower mash pH.  When I plug in my grist in Bru'n Water, I simply omit the acid malt.  Then, I just add acid malt to lower the pH to my desired target.  I use the Weyermann rule of thumb that Martin mentioned, and I've never had an issue.  For example, yesterday I brewed a pilsner for which Bru'n Water projected a mash pH of 5.7.  I added 3.2% acid malt to the grist and my mash pH was between 5.3-5.4, which was my target.
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: mabrungard on January 20, 2013, 12:16:30 PM
Matt, What does Bru'n Water tell you if you input that acid malt into the grain bill.  Does the estimated mash pH and the observed pH agree?  That is useful information for my calibration use. 
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: Pawtucket Patriot on January 20, 2013, 03:07:56 PM
Matt, What does Bru'n Water tell you if you input that acid malt into the grain bill.  Does the estimated mash pH and the observed pH agree?  That is useful information for my calibration use.

I get 5.2 on Bru'n Water when I input the acid malt.  So, it's approximately .1 pH lower than my actual reading.  But, I will qualify this by openly admitting that I am measuring pH at room temperature with ColorpHast strips.  I always add .3 pH to whatever I get on the strip.
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: davidgzach on January 20, 2013, 03:24:39 PM
Martin,

When I put in 8oz of acid malt for a 10G batch of Pilsner, Bru'n water showed a PH of 5.4.  It didn't go to 5.2 until I hit 1.6#.  I ended up putting in 1.8 since that is all I had.

The PH came in at 5.1 at room temp.  I have a Hanna PH meter.

Dave
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: beersk on January 22, 2013, 08:07:30 AM
This is good info to have since I am an acid malt user. Thanks, guys!
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: Kaiser on January 22, 2013, 09:40:16 AM
David,

Do you mind sharing the grist and water info. I'd like to run it through the model I have.

Kai
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: davidgzach on January 22, 2013, 10:50:42 AM
Calcium-32, Magnesium-9.6, Sodium-19, Sulfate-41, Chloride-39, Bicarbonate-24 (although not listed on the report and filled in by Bru'n Water).  Alkalinity-51 and Hardness 118.

For some reason, my Bru'n water spreadsheet had some different numbers.  When I plugged these in and checked the Mash PH again, it was at 5.1........go figure!   :o

I just ordered a new report and will adjust all my spreadsheets accordingly.  My local Ace hardware store graciously ordered in some Pickling Lime for me so I'll be good to go from here.  Hopefully......

Dave
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: Kaiser on January 22, 2013, 10:56:04 AM
Thanks. What was the grain bill and either the mash thickness or sparge water and grist weight.

Kai
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: davidgzach on January 22, 2013, 11:07:58 AM
Thanks. What was the grain bill and either the mash thickness or sparge water and grist weight.

Kai

17# Pilsen, 2# Light Munich, 1.8# Acid Malt, 1# CaraPils.  Mashed with 6.8g to get to 153F.

Dave
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: BrewQwest on February 17, 2013, 07:34:21 PM
Um... Kai... anybody... this thread is hanging in limbo.... Kai, what were the results of you plugging in the info you wanted???? cheers!!
Title: Re: Overshot Mash PH
Post by: Kaiser on February 18, 2013, 07:30:57 AM
BrewQuest, sorry about the delay. Don't worry about PMing me when I seem to have forgotten about a thread.

When I put your data into the Brewer's Friend water calculator I get a predicted mash pH of 4.94. That is 8+% acidulated malt in this grist. No surprise that it is that low. That also matches Weyermann's rule of thumb of about 0.1 pH drop per % acid malt. When I replace the acid malt with Pilsner I get a pH of 5.71. That's about 0.092 pH drop per 1 %.

I saved the settings to this link: http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=X2XN944

I would have gone with just 0.6 lb of acid malt. That's about 3% of the grist and should have gotten you to a pH around 5.4.

Kai