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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: Jimmy K on February 06, 2013, 07:24:02 AM

Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Jimmy K on February 06, 2013, 07:24:02 AM
I thought this was a good read. What do you think? Anything you'd add/change/delete?
 
http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2013/02/caramunich-isnt-caramelize-munich-and-9.html (http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2013/02/caramunich-isnt-caramelize-munich-and-9.html)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: bluesman on February 06, 2013, 07:39:37 AM
Great article Jimmy.  I use the same hop back method (Blichmann Hop Rocket) to finish hop my IPA's and have to say that it produces awesome hop flavor/aroma.

Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: pinnah on February 06, 2013, 07:52:06 AM
Good stuff.  I think it is always important to challenge the "accepted truths" of homebrewing. 
Look at all those no chill freaks down south ;)

I guess for me, kegging really is a time saver over bottling.  I understand his point however.

Cheers.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Jimmy K on February 06, 2013, 08:02:55 AM
Good stuff.  I think it is always important to challenge the "accepted truths" of homebrewing. 
Look at all those no chill freaks down south ;)

I guess for me, kegging really is a time saver over bottling.  I understand his point however.

Cheers.
I did find myself wondering about that last time I took apart a keg to clean it.  Secondary fermentation would have to be on my top 10.
 
Also
Quote
While the internet deserves credit as a great resource to homebrewers, it has also lead to ideas and “facts” being repeated by people who assume they are true "because someone on a message board said so."
Say whaaat?
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 06, 2013, 08:58:31 AM
Haven't read the post yet but if anyone thinks you don't save time kegging over bottling they're definitely "mad". Takes 10-15 minutes to strip apart a corny and another 10-15 minutes to rack. And I would argue it isn't necessary to strip apart a corny every time. I also think homebrewed draft beer often tastes better than homebrew bottled beer due to oxidation in bottled beer.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on February 06, 2013, 08:59:22 AM
Another great article from Mike. This guy has been a huge inspiration and technical reference for me. Can't wait for his book!

Also don't agree with the kegging vs. bottling thing. I think kegs are pretty crucial to professional-tasting homebrew.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: barliman on February 06, 2013, 09:06:44 AM
I must confess that I had been duped about the CaraMunich and CaraVienna.  Seems like it's time for an experiment to taste the difference between CaraMunich and Caramalt.

J
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Jimmy K on February 06, 2013, 09:24:58 AM
Haven't read the post yet but if anyone thinks you don't save time kegging over bottling they're definitely "mad". Takes 10-15 minutes to strip apart a corny and another 10-15 minutes to rack. And I would argue it isn't necessary to strip apart a corny every time. I also think homebrewed draft beer often tastes better than homebrew bottled beer due to oxidation in bottled beer.
FWIW - there is also filling CO2 tanks, cleaning draft lines, maybe carbonating if you do a shake method ... But for me the biggest time-suck of bottling is delabelling bottles. If I were buying nice new bottles it would be faster, but more expensive. Then again, my kegs/kegorator cost as much as dozens of cases of bottles. 
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: denny on February 06, 2013, 09:28:25 AM
These are 2 that I always bring up...

"Craft brewers do (insert technique) or use (insert equipment) so homebrewers should aspire to as well"

"Boiling wort for a long time caramelizes it"

Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 06, 2013, 09:29:27 AM
These are 2 that I always bring up...

"Craft brewers do (insert technique) or use (insert equipment) so homebrewers should aspire to as well"

"Boiling wort for a long time caramelizes it"

But, OTOH, all probrewers should have a 600+ gallon blue cooler and batch sparge. :D
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: denny on February 06, 2013, 09:30:06 AM
These are 2 that I always bring up...

"Craft brewers do (insert technique) or use (insert equipment) so homebrewers should aspire to as well"

"Boiling wort for a long time caramelizes it"

But, OTOH, all probrewers should have a 600+ gallon blue cooler and batch sparge. :D

Well, that goes without saying.....;)
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 06, 2013, 09:30:49 AM
Haven't read the post yet but if anyone thinks you don't save time kegging over bottling they're definitely "mad". Takes 10-15 minutes to strip apart a corny and another 10-15 minutes to rack. And I would argue it isn't necessary to strip apart a corny every time. I also think homebrewed draft beer often tastes better than homebrew bottled beer due to oxidation in bottled beer.
FWIW - there is also filling CO2 tanks, cleaning draft lines, maybe carbonating if you do a shake method ... But for me the biggest time-suck of bottling is delabelling bottles. If I were buying nice new bottles it would be faster, but more expensive. Then again, my kegs/kegorator cost as much as dozens of cases of bottles.

Still, bottling 5 gallons is a 1+ hour job just to put the beer in the bottles. I think it is longer than that even. And it is harder work than kegging, regardless of the time saving.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: redbeerman on February 06, 2013, 09:33:48 AM
These are 2 that I always bring up...

"Craft brewers do (insert technique) or use (insert equipment) so homebrewers should aspire to as well"

"Boiling wort for a long time caramelizes it"

But, OTOH, all probrewers should have a 600+ gallon blue cooler and batch sparge. :D

Well, that goes without saying.....;)

Imagine the size of that braid! :o
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: repo on February 06, 2013, 09:34:42 AM
Hits some good points, some contradictions and some nonsense.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Jimmy K on February 06, 2013, 09:36:11 AM
Hits some good points, some contradictions and some nonsense.
I'm just curious what you thought was nonsense.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: repo on February 06, 2013, 09:41:07 AM
Well, kegging is much faster than bottling. Especially as the amount of beer increases.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 06, 2013, 09:49:47 AM
For me, kegging takes the tedious end of brewing (label peeling,bottle sanitation,etc) out of the equation, arguments aside. 
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: morticaixavier on February 06, 2013, 09:52:21 AM
Well, kegging is much faster than bottling. Especially as the amount of beer increases.

I think his point is that if you take into account ALL the tasks involved with kegging, not just the wracking part, it's comparable.

I don't know if that's true for everyone though. for instance, I don't have tap lines to take a apart and clean all the time. Mostly I put some hot PBW in the empty rinsed keg and run it off through my cobra taps, follow with hot water rinse and sanitizer. but I bet each time a keg kicks I spend ~.5 hours dealing with it, another .25-.5 actually wracking beer to the keg. Then once in a while I have to take the keg and taps apart to clean deeply. every once in a while I have to drive ~1 hour round trip to get co2, etc.

bottling takes ~1 hours on the day but I have to spend maybe another hour delabeling and rinsing bottles. so I bet it's pretty close.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: repo on February 06, 2013, 09:59:33 AM
Well, kegging is much faster than bottling. Especially as the amount of beer increases.

I think his point is that if you take into account ALL the tasks involved with kegging, not just the wracking part, it's comparable.

I don't know if that's true for everyone though. for instance, I don't have tap lines to take a apart and clean all the time. Mostly I put some hot PBW in the empty rinsed keg and run it off through my cobra taps, follow with hot water rinse and sanitizer. but I bet each time a keg kicks I spend ~.5 hours dealing with it, another .25-.5 actually wracking beer to the keg. Then once in a while I have to take the keg and taps apart to clean deeply. every once in a while I have to drive ~1 hour round trip to get co2, etc.

bottling takes ~1 hours on the day but I have to spend maybe another hour delabeling and rinsing bottles. so I bet it's pretty close.

But he clearly disregards all the tasks that go into bottling. Getting bottles, cleaning them constantly, snaitizing them, caps etc. 

I guess I don't spend nearly as much time cleaning kegs and keg hardware as you, even with free leaf hops in them.

Getting 10 gallons into kegs vs bottles  saves me at least half the time- all things considered.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: gogreen437 on February 06, 2013, 10:20:31 AM
Haven't read the post yet but if anyone thinks you don't save time kegging over bottling they're definitely "mad". Takes 10-15 minutes to strip apart a corny and another 10-15 minutes to rack. And I would argue it isn't necessary to strip apart a corny every time. I also think homebrewed draft beer often tastes better than homebrew bottled beer due to oxidation in bottled beer.

Rinse bottles after use, cover in tin foil and bake.  I realize the baking takes an hour, but I don't actually have to do anything during that time so I don't count it.  I do both and I think the time savings of kegging is often overstated.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: gogreen437 on February 06, 2013, 10:23:40 AM

Also don't agree with the kegging vs. bottling thing. I think kegs are pretty crucial to professional-tasting homebrew.

Just curious why you say that?
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: snowtiger87 on February 06, 2013, 10:29:23 AM
I still bottle most of my Belgian-style brews. A bottling "session" for me takes a about 2 hours for 10 gallons. That includes sanitizing bottles, letting them dry while I activate the yeast, boiling the priming sugar, filling the bottles (mostly 750 ml - some bigger), then corking or capping them, and cleanup.

I could keg the same about of beer (including cleaning and sanitizing the kegs) in half that time with a lot less work.
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 06, 2013, 10:34:25 AM
I do both and I think the time savings of kegging is often overstated.

Clearly some of you  including the author need to lay off the booze! ;) Would take me 20 minutes to clean and sani and fill a corny. 5 minute tops to run acid through my lines. On the times that you need to disassemble a keg it takes all of 5 minutes!

And like I said, for a 10 gallon batch that is 2 hours of constant work hudled on the floor if gravity feeding or standing over the sink if pressure pushing.

No way in hades is the time saving of kegging "overated". I could clean and keg a 10 gallon batch in 30-40 minutes easily! 2 hours at least to handbottle that much and that doesn't count de labeling.

And let's not forget, in most cases kegged beer tastes better!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on February 06, 2013, 10:52:21 AM
And let's not forget, in most cases kegged beer tastes better!

REALLY struggling to find an example of when bottle conditioning produces better beer than draft.

I don't buy it for sours or high-gravity, "ageable" beers. Unless you're trying to save cellar space or don't want to invest in kegs to age beers.
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 06, 2013, 11:00:54 AM
And let's not forget, in most cases kegged beer tastes better!

REALLY struggling to find an example of when bottle conditioning produces better beer than draft.

I don't buy it for sours or high-gravity, "ageable" beers. Unless you're trying to save cellar space or don't want to invest in kegs to age beers.

The only example I can think of is possibly barley wine. It's the only beer I find that I really enjoy bottle aged. But even then the C02 level can sometimes be tricky.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 06, 2013, 11:55:54 AM
+1 on time savings for kegging.  Not even comparable time wise. Even if you bought new bottles each time (not feasible), it's still not close. 20 yrs plus of streamlined kegging to back it up.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: AmandaK on February 06, 2013, 12:17:49 PM
Am I the only one who thinks kegging is a huge pain? Yes, it's easy to fill a keg and it's easy to clean said keg (much more so now that I have Mark's Keg Washer). But am I the only one with a keezer love/hate relationship?

I love kegging because of the time saved in packaging (obvi). And because my keezer is pretty.  ;D And because it is convenient to walk to the dining room and pour a half pint... or more.  8)

I hate kegging because I feel like my keezer always needs cleaning. (It's a 5cf GE with a 10" collar, LOVE controller and SS Perlick Creamers.) No matter how much I keep it sealed, it's always condensating. I have bought two of those Eva-Dry things that help a bit, but not much. And God forbid a tiny amount of beer gets dripped in there from removing a liquid post. Mold city!! Then to clean the thing, I have to pull everything out, thaw it out and then climb in there (or hang a$$ up over the collar) to clean it. The only thing I haven't done is wire a tiny fan in there - and I won't allow myself to do it because when I work with electricity, things blow up - seriously.

It's a love/hate thing for me, I guess.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: thetooth on February 06, 2013, 12:25:54 PM
I keg most of my beer, but I still bottle 4 - 6 cases of it a year as holiday gifts and such... so I'm definitely aware of how much effort goes into each process.  That said, kegging wins hand down in my opinion.

I have to wonder if the people who think bottling is as easy or as fast as kegging have ever tried kegging their beer?  Once you've done both a few times, it's clear that kegging is easier.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 06, 2013, 12:43:20 PM
I keg most of my beer, but I still bottle 4 - 6 cases of it a year as holiday gifts and such... so I'm definitely aware of how much effort goes into each process.  That said, kegging wins hand down in my opinion.

No doubt.

In my case, I also have small kids underfoot most of the time.  With kegging, no worries.  With bottling it gets a little dicey.  You can step away from a keg while it's filling without interrupting the process.  You cannot step away from bottling.

Plus, I still have a case of bottles I need to label.  With a keg, slap on the masking tape from the fermenter and you're good to go.

Even if it took the same amount of time as kegging (it doesn't) bottling is SO much more labor intensive it's not funny.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: hubie on February 06, 2013, 12:54:04 PM
Plus, I still have a case of bottles I need to label. 

I just Sharpie the cap because it would be a pain to have to get the old labels off the bottles when I want to reuse them.

And let's not forget, in most cases kegged beer tastes better!

I don't have experience with this for my own beer; is this generally held true, or is this something that one could argue should be item 11 on the list?
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 06, 2013, 12:55:48 PM
And let's not forget, in most cases kegged beer tastes better!

REALLY struggling to find an example of when bottle conditioning produces better beer than draft.

I don't buy it for sours or high-gravity, "ageable" beers. Unless you're trying to save cellar space or don't want to invest in kegs to age beers.

this is actually a question i have for all of those out there who won medals the last few years at nhc.  how many winners were bottle conditioned versus how many were keg conditioned and transferred to the bottle.  that is interesting to me.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: tomsawyer on February 06, 2013, 01:00:06 PM
I liked the article, especially the point about commercial fermentors and the pressure that inhibit ester formation.  I'm doing some pressurized fermentations in my Brewhemoth and getting good results at higher temps.

As far as the caramelization point, yes you are right but it is a technical argument.  Most people think of caramlizing as the darkening of wort, and to this extent it is accurate.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: denny on February 06, 2013, 01:08:29 PM
As far as the caramelization point, yes you are right but it is a technical argument.  Most people think of caramlizing as the darkening of wort, and to this extent it is accurate.

I feel just the opposite.  I think that people should be aware of what's REALLY happening, not feed their misinformation.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: madfermentationist on February 06, 2013, 01:16:50 PM
#6 has certainly been the most discussed one on the list, but I stand by it. The point of the post wasn’t that kegging isn’t faster than bottling (I agreed that it often is), just that the time savings isn’t huge, all things considered I said “the total time spent is similar.”

It seems like many people aren’t as thorough with their cleaning/sanitizing as I am (cleaning the lines between every batch, cleaning dip-tubes thoroughly etc.), but in many cases without issue. I have a couple friends who were lax on their sanitation and ended up with persistent microbial issues with their taps. I worry that people hear about the huge time savings and minimal effort kegging requires, and then aren’t as dedicated as they should be the less glamorous aspects of having beer on tap.

And let's not forget, in most cases kegged beer tastes better!

REALLY struggling to find an example of when bottle conditioning produces better beer than draft.

I don't buy it for sours or high-gravity, "ageable" beers. Unless you're trying to save cellar space or don't want to invest in kegs to age beers.

Kegging is certainly a perfect vehicle for many session beers and especially anything hoppy, but I don’t think it is the best choice for all styles. Bottles easily allow for higher or lower levels of carbonation than kegging, its rare a hefe-weizen or gueuze is going to be as good on tap as it is in bottles. I also think bottle conditioning is an essential element of flavor development for beers fermented with Brettanomyces.  In general I also enjoy bottling just for the ability to space out consumption of a batch that benefits from age. Two weeks ago I had the last bottle of an old ale I brewed in 2006, how many people still have beers they kegged more than six years ago?

Always happy when I can stir up some debate!
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 06, 2013, 01:22:42 PM
I do agree that for higher co2 level beers kegs make it challenging to serve via draft, such as belgians and hefeweizens. Not impossible though if you have a restrictor or 30 ft bev line.

Still going to have to vehemently disagree with your assertion that kegging and bottling have near equal time frames. Just doesn't work that way for me and never has!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 06, 2013, 01:23:24 PM
And let's not forget, in most cases kegged beer tastes better!

REALLY struggling to find an example of when bottle conditioning produces better beer than draft.

I don't buy it for sours or high-gravity, "ageable" beers. Unless you're trying to save cellar space or don't want to invest in kegs to age beers.

this is actually a question i have for all of those out there who won medals the last few years at nhc.  how many winners were bottle conditioned versus how many were keg conditioned and transferred to the bottle.  that is interesting to me.

One was bottle conditioned and one was lagered and carbonated in the keg. Glad to settle the debate.  ;)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: madfermentationist on February 06, 2013, 01:30:23 PM
One was bottle conditioned and one was lagered and carbonated in the keg. Glad to settle the debate.  ;)

My three (out of six) entries that advanced to the second round were all bottle conditioned (sours). Two made the mini-BOS in the finals, but sadly neither placed. However, I’ve noticed from the winners recipes in Zymurgy that often two thirds to three quarters of the winners force-carb and then bottle. I’m never sure how much of this is correlation and how much is causation. Is it that the more serious competition minded brewers force carbonate, or is it actually producing the best beers?
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 06, 2013, 01:30:50 PM
I bottle off the keg all the time and use flippies almost exclusively for bottling.  That saves time!  As to the keezer - keep it outside in the garage and have a spray bottle of Star San solution ready at all times to stay ahead of mold issues (spray then wipe a problem area - why empty out the whole thing?)  I also have a stainless grate  (1 inch tall) on the bottom of the keezer to keep the kegs/fermentors up off the bottom and it keeps everything much cleaner overall, because air can get under the kegs and keep a little dribble here and there from becoming a problem (or spray some Star San solution under there until the keg is changed out).  Once a year I shut it down for major cleaning, but even that is a few minutes only to complete.  Just my little mods to make life easier.  And, yes, I have some bottled from keg that are approaching 6 years, without any problem (in flippies to boot).

As to keg cleaning - I am with Keith; I break them down completely after each use.  I typically clean, sanitize and top them off with CO2 in about 5-10 minutes each in the middle of a mash or boil session when there is nothing else to do.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 06, 2013, 01:42:39 PM

[

One was bottle conditioned and one was lagered and carbonated in the keg. Glad to settle the debate.  ;)

just stoking the fire.  my big concern is really for some of the beers that i want to be clear.  any disruption in shipping and more importantly once the beer is opened and co2 comes out of solution, this disrupts the yeast itself and the second pour will not be as clear as the first.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: james on February 06, 2013, 01:49:01 PM
Two weeks ago I had the last bottle of an old ale I brewed in 2006, how many people still have beers they kegged more than six years ago?

I still have a keg of 2007 Barleywine with about a gallon left in it.  I really need to bottle the leftovers but I keep putting it off.  Maybe I'll bottle the rest up and submit some to NHC this year.

I doubt many people have beers that old in kegs.  I think my next oldest is probably from 2009
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 06, 2013, 02:12:34 PM
Two weeks ago I had the last bottle of an old ale I brewed in 2006, how many people still have beers they kegged more than six years ago?

I still have a keg of 2007 Barleywine with about a gallon left in it.  I really need to bottle the leftovers but I keep putting it off.  Maybe I'll bottle the rest up and submit some to NHC this year.

I doubt many people have beers that old in kegs.  I think my next oldest is probably from 2009

I guess I can say it too! :) I have a keg of RIS from 2006 that is about 1/2 full and another keg of Old Ale from 2007. I drank my last two bottles of 2006 Bruised Bare Knuckles barley wine this last year. But I do have other odd assorted bottles ranging back to that time period.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on February 06, 2013, 03:07:07 PM
Two weeks ago I had the last bottle of an old ale I brewed in 2006, how many people still have beers they kegged more than six years ago?

You gotta really commit to aging a beer in a keg - its REALLY easy to pull a half empty keg of old RIS or sour beer and put it on tap when you've hit a dry spell.

Its also hard to keep a bit of aging beer in a keg when you're full and don't want to buy another!

I've always thought it was worth the benefits (always able to blend, no risk of oxidation, etc.). My wife, OTOH, would rather see a case of old bottles than the herd of kegs in the basement!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: jeffy on February 06, 2013, 03:56:22 PM
And let's not forget, in most cases kegged beer tastes better!

REALLY struggling to find an example of when bottle conditioning produces better beer than draft.

I don't buy it for sours or high-gravity, "ageable" beers. Unless you're trying to save cellar space or don't want to invest in kegs to age beers.

this is actually a question i have for all of those out there who won medals the last few years at nhc.  how many winners were bottle conditioned versus how many were keg conditioned and transferred to the bottle.  that is interesting to me.

One was bottle conditioned and one was lagered and carbonated in the keg. Glad to settle the debate.  ;)

Jeff Renner and I have speculated that the pilsners in the final round seem to suffer from oxidation more often if there is no visible sediment in the bottles.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 06, 2013, 04:25:02 PM

[/quote]

Jeff Renner and I have speculated that the pilsners in the final round seem to suffer from oxidation more often if there is no visible sediment in the bottles.
[/quote]

makes me say hmmmmm
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: a10t2 on February 06, 2013, 04:49:03 PM
Using sugar results in cidery flavors.
Leaving beer in the fermenter for a couple months results in autolysis.
Squeezing the grain bag extracts tannins.
One smack pack is plenty of yeast for a 5 gal batch.
3/16" beverage tubing has a resistance of 2-3 psi/ft.

It isn't a myth per se, but not understanding the limits of calculations... "My IPA came in at 7.19% ABV and 75.6 IBU."

How about the big one? Home brewing saves money.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 06, 2013, 05:03:19 PM
How about the big one? Home brewing saves money.
That one!

And my Aluminum kettle is has so much better heat transfer, because you know, this is just my opinion man, Aluminum has much better conductivity.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: james on February 06, 2013, 05:17:26 PM
How about the big one? Home brewing saves money.

This needs moderated before our wives/girlfriends see it!  :)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: erockrph on February 06, 2013, 05:38:40 PM
How about the big one? Home brewing saves money.

This needs moderated before our wives/girlfriends see it!  :)

My most recent commercial brew purchases were a pack of Westy XII, and several bottles of Allagash Confluence & Interlude from a few different vintages. My last batch of homebrew cost me about 20 bucks for 3 gallons. I'd say that's a huge cost savings right there :)
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 06, 2013, 09:08:32 PM
How about the big one? Home brewing saves money.

This needs moderated before our wives/girlfriends see it!  :)

My most recent commercial brew purchases were a pack of Westy XII, and several bottles of Allagash Confluence & Interlude from a few different vintages. My last batch of homebrew cost me about 20 bucks for 3 gallons. I'd say that's a huge cost savings right there :)

Except: You aren't factoring in your labor let alone your equipment. Homebrew is some of the most expensive beer in the world.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: reverseapachemaster on February 06, 2013, 10:18:03 PM
There's a tremendous amount of myth out there. It seems like every time a few get knocked down and everybody agrees they are not based in fact a couple new ones pop up. It's like a hydra of stupid.  :-\

I've only bottled my beers and I don't see it as that big of a pain. Like anything else in homebrewing there's ways to trim time if you really want (e.g. leaving the damn labels on the bottles). I'm not anti-kegging by any means but I'd say I could probably prep and bottle beer almost as quickly as you could clean a keg, sanitize, fill and pressurize. I don't think the time saving is immense. That's what I took his point to be but I might have undersold it to myself. I dunno, I'm not anti-kegging in the least. I own a couple cornys I bought cheaply a couple years ago I'm still using as fermentors because I don't have the space for a tap set up right now.

Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: anthony on February 06, 2013, 10:49:04 PM
Surprised everyone is so fixated on the kegging comment and not #5!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: tschmidlin on February 07, 2013, 01:43:13 AM
"Boiling wort for a long time caramelizes it"
It actually might though.  We've got 230F as the caramelization temp for fructose.  I am not 100% certain that the temperature on the inside surface of the kettle, on the bottom right above the flame, does not exceed 230F if the burner is hot enough or the pot is thin enough.  Supposedly a jet burner can melt a hole in a stainless pot full of water.

Also, the presence of amino acids and other wort components and the pH of the wort will lower the caramelization temperature.  Here is an article that showed caramelization of maltose at 130C peaked at 60 minutes, but maltose supposedly only caramelizes at 180C.  Their marker of caramelization is "5-hydroxymethyl-2-furfural (HMF), the main characteristic caramel product".  They call it HMF, but I'll call it 5HM2F (see below).  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12395187

Then there is this article where they analyze the volatiles from unhopped wort during the boil and find 5HM2F.  http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf072619r

On the other hand, some sources say HMF is also formed by Maillard reactions, however some other sources refer to 5HM2F as 5HMF, so it is not clear if we are talking about the same compounds across the board.

Bottom line, I have questions about the research and I'm not 100% sure they are right about caramelization happening.  On the other hand, I am not 100% convinced that it can not be happening.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: jeffy on February 07, 2013, 04:43:56 AM
"Boiling wort for a long time caramelizes it"
It actually might though.  We've got 230F as the caramelization temp for fructose.  I am not 100% certain that the temperature on the inside surface of the kettle, on the bottom right above the flame, does not exceed 230F if the burner is hot enough or the pot is thin enough.  Supposedly a jet burner can melt a hole in a stainless pot full of water.

Also, the presence of amino acids and other wort components and the pH of the wort will lower the caramelization temperature.  Here is an article that showed caramelization of maltose at 130C peaked at 60 minutes, but maltose supposedly only caramelizes at 180C.  Their marker of caramelization is "5-hydroxymethyl-2-furfural (HMF), the main characteristic caramel product".  They call it HMF, but I'll call it 5HM2F (see below).  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12395187

Then there is this article where they analyze the volatiles from unhopped wort during the boil and find 5HM2F.  http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf072619r

On the other hand, some sources say HMF is also formed by Maillard reactions, however some other sources refer to 5HM2F as 5HMF, so it is not clear if we are talking about the same compounds across the board.

Bottom line, I have questions about the research and I'm not 100% sure they are right about caramelization happening.  On the other hand, I am not 100% convinced that it can not be happening.

I'm convinced you have too much free time.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: AmandaK on February 07, 2013, 06:09:55 AM
How about the big one? Home brewing saves money.

This needs moderated before our wives/girlfriends see it!  :)

My most recent commercial brew purchases were a pack of Westy XII, and several bottles of Allagash Confluence & Interlude from a few different vintages. My last batch of homebrew cost me about 20 bucks for 3 gallons. I'd say that's a huge cost savings right there :)

Except: You aren't factoring in your labor let alone your equipment. Homebrew is some of the most expensive beer in the world.

I finally quit buying huge amounts of equipment about a year ago, so my six pack price (including equipment, but not labor) is hovering around $10 a sixer. Not too expensive... but definitely not saving money!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Jimmy K on February 07, 2013, 06:32:30 AM
How about the big one? Home brewing saves money.
Yeah - saves money my ash!
 
How about - red/orange/green coolers work as well as blue  8)
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 07, 2013, 06:57:28 AM
There's a tremendous amount of myth out there. It seems like every time a few get knocked down and everybody agrees they are not based in fact a couple new ones pop up. It's like a hydra of stupid.  :-\

I've only bottled my beers and I don't see it as that big of a pain. Like anything else in homebrewing there's ways to trim time if you really want (e.g. leaving the damn labels on the bottles). I'm not anti-kegging by any means but I'd say I could probably prep and bottle beer almost as quickly as you could clean a keg, sanitize, fill and pressurize. I don't think the time saving is immense. That's what I took his point to be but I might have undersold it to myself. I dunno, I'm not anti-kegging in the least. I own a couple cornys I bought cheaply a couple years ago I'm still using as fermentors because I don't have the space for a tap set up right now.

OK, I'll just say it just one more time then drop it. Kegging 10 gallons (including cleaning and sanitizing kegs) 30-40 minutes. Bottling 10 gallon, 2 - 2.5 hours. I guess to me that is a big time saver. Just sayin'. ;)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: reverseapachemaster on February 07, 2013, 07:04:45 AM
How about the big one? Home brewing saves money.

This needs moderated before our wives/girlfriends see it!  :)

My most recent commercial brew purchases were a pack of Westy XII, and several bottles of Allagash Confluence & Interlude from a few different vintages. My last batch of homebrew cost me about 20 bucks for 3 gallons. I'd say that's a huge cost savings right there :)

Except: You aren't factoring in your labor let alone your equipment. Homebrew is some of the most expensive beer in the world.

I finally quit buying huge amounts of equipment about a year ago, so my six pack price (including equipment, but not labor) is hovering around $10 a sixer. Not too expensive... but definitely not saving money!

I don't have a very advanced set up and I've managed to get most of my upgrades the past couple years for free (gift cards, reward points, etc.) so I'm not too deep on costs. I haven't thought about specific costs but I'm pretty sure I am running at less than the cost of a six pack of craft beer. It's pretty much impossible to buy sour beer for the cost of making it because the time required is of no cost to me. I could buy the ingredients and a new better bottle to make five gallons of lambic for cheaper than what it would cost to ship one 750ml from Belgium or even what they sell for at most bottle shops (minus Lindemans, Timmermans, Chapeau).

Of course, if I were billing my time into it at my normal hourly rate I'd be making really expensive beer but it's not billable time and I don't think of brewing as work.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Jimmy K on February 07, 2013, 07:09:28 AM
How about the big one? Home brewing saves money.

My most recent commercial brew purchases were a pack of Westy XII, and several bottles of Allagash Confluence & Interlude from a few different vintages. My last batch of homebrew cost me about 20 bucks for 3 gallons. I'd say that's a huge cost savings right there :)
Except for me, I didn't buy all that cool beer until I started homebrewing and appreciated it.  Not that homebrewing is the only way to become a beer geek, but it sure is one gateway.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 07, 2013, 07:14:42 AM


Except: You aren't factoring in your labor let alone your equipment. Homebrew is some of the most expensive beer in the world.

i guess i shouldn't be mowing my own lawn either, because the amount of money i could earn during that time is way more than what i pay the kid down the street. ;D,  not many hobbies are cheap. this one can be expensive or not.  my lbhs has a huge ss blichman kettle for 700 bucks.  my kettle bought at a goodwill store for three bucks.  add another 20 tops for the electric element not so much.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: erockrph on February 07, 2013, 07:23:35 AM
I don't have a very advanced set up and I've managed to get most of my upgrades the past couple years for free (gift cards, reward points, etc.) so I'm not too deep on costs. I haven't thought about specific costs but I'm pretty sure I am running at less than the cost of a six pack of craft beer. It's pretty much impossible to buy sour beer for the cost of making it because the time required is of no cost to me. I could buy the ingredients and a new better bottle to make five gallons of lambic for cheaper than what it would cost to ship one 750ml from Belgium or even what they sell for at most bottle shops (minus Lindemans, Timmermans, Chapeau).

Of course, if I were billing my time into it at my normal hourly rate I'd be making really expensive beer but it's not billable time and I don't think of brewing as work.

I'm in a similar position. My AG setup cost me less than 40 bucks, and it paid for itself in ingredient cost savings in no time. I typically mix-a-six when I buy commercial beer, so the cost differential is significant. And since brewing is just a hobby for me, I don't consider my time a monetary investment. In fact, I could consider homebrewing a cost savings over other hobbies because I am producing something of tangible value with my time.

Of course, in reality I'm not doing this for the cost savings on beer. And some batches (i.e., my IIPA's) are definitely more expensive than craft beers. But as hobbies go, my return on investment is much greater in homebrewing than other hobbies I've taken up over the years.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: AmandaK on February 07, 2013, 07:24:58 AM

How about - red/orange/green coolers work as well as blue  8)

Orange ones are the best, obvi.  ;D
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: AmandaK on February 07, 2013, 07:34:11 AM
Of course, in reality I'm not doing this for the cost savings on beer. And some batches (i.e., my IIPA's) are definitely more expensive than craft beers. But as hobbies go, my return on investment is much greater in homebrewing than other hobbies I've taken up over the years.

I think the same way you do, in this regard. While my day job as a cost analyst almost forces me to track & analyze all the money I spend on the hobby, it really doesn't matter in the long run. I spend what I do on the hobby because I love it - and that's worth more than whatever I paid for it.  ;D
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 07, 2013, 07:39:04 AM

.  Supposedly a jet burner can melt a hole in a stainless pot full of water.


i can boil water in a paper cup on a camp fire though 8)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Jimmy K on February 07, 2013, 07:40:36 AM
How about - red/orange/green coolers work as well as blue  8)
Orange ones are the best, obvi.  ;D
Whenever I use my orange cooler, my friends come over and my net beer gain for the day is negative.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 07, 2013, 07:53:42 AM
Minus the understood expense of equipment, the cost of an all-grain batch is fairly low for average gravity styles.  But the ability to control the end result, and blend science together with creativity,makes the payoff so much bigger than a financial argument.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: bluesman on February 07, 2013, 07:55:16 AM
Bottling is a real PITA for me. I have two keezers and a beer fridge that keep me busy, but I would much rather package one vessel than 50 vessels.  ;)

I always break down my kegs and give them the once over. I use PBW then Starsan with a CO2 purge so they're ready for the next fill. I've never accounted for all of the time to maintain the keezer and fill/clean kegs, but it really doesn't matter for me because I really despise bottling. Just my way.  :)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: erockrph on February 07, 2013, 08:35:50 AM
Just to chime in on the bottling thing, I typically brew 3-gallon batches, so bottling isn't that big of a deal. I have a good system down, and the actual bottle filling/capping process takes me less than 20 minutes for about a case or so of beer. I generally reuse my homebrew bottles, so I only bother with label peeling every few months. Even then, a soak in Oxyclean and hot water makes it pretty simple. I sanitize my bottles in the dishwasher, so that is minimal effort as well.

I rather enjoy bottling, but if I was brewing 10 gallon batches I would certainly think that kegging would make life a lot easier.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: beersk on February 07, 2013, 08:37:50 AM
Well, kegging is much faster than bottling. Especially as the amount of beer increases.

I think his point is that if you take into account ALL the tasks involved with kegging, not just the wracking part, it's comparable.

I don't know if that's true for everyone though. for instance, I don't have tap lines to take a apart and clean all the time. Mostly I put some hot PBW in the empty rinsed keg and run it off through my cobra taps, follow with hot water rinse and sanitizer. but I bet each time a keg kicks I spend ~.5 hours dealing with it, another .25-.5 actually wracking beer to the keg. Then once in a while I have to take the keg and taps apart to clean deeply. every once in a while I have to drive ~1 hour round trip to get co2, etc.

bottling takes ~1 hours on the day but I have to spend maybe another hour delabeling and rinsing bottles. so I bet it's pretty close.
Agreed. I've been bottling again lately, and it's really not that big of a deal.
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 07, 2013, 08:39:42 AM


Except: You aren't factoring in your labor let alone your equipment. Homebrew is some of the most expensive beer in the world.

i guess i shouldn't be mowing my own lawn either, because the amount of money i could earn during that time is way more than what i pay the kid down the street. ;D,  not many hobbies are cheap. this one can be expensive or not.  my lbhs has a huge ss blichman kettle for 700 bucks.  my kettle bought at a goodwill store for three bucks.  add another 20 tops for the electric element not so much.

Time is money my friend. Just because you enjoy doing it doesn't mean you are spending it ... or even spending it wisely. ;)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 07, 2013, 08:45:45 AM
i understand. but i don't consider how expensive my time is when i am out for a bike ride, growing tomatoes etc.  infact, i have installed my own hardwood floors, resided my house, built my own shed, when i could have probably been working and made more than what i would have paid someone to do it for me, but i need a change of scenery from the normal work i do, the labor is theraputic for me, and there is always the "ha, i can do that" factor. 
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 07, 2013, 10:24:19 AM
i understand. but i don't consider how expensive my time is when i am out for a bike ride, growing tomatoes etc.  infact, i have installed my own hardwood floors, resided my house, built my own shed, when i could have probably been working and made more than what i would have paid someone to do it for me, but i need a change of scenery from the normal work i do, the labor is theraputic for me, and there is always the "ha, i can do that" factor.

I know what you are saying but if you have a friend come over and drink 12 big pints of your czech lager that you have been hanging onto for 3 months and he blows the keg or you have a leak in your poppet and you leak an entire keg of Belgian Quad into your keggerator what is it that hurts the most? Is it the cost of ingredients or the time you put into it?
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: denny on February 07, 2013, 10:27:42 AM
There's a tremendous amount of myth out there. It seems like every time a few get knocked down and everybody agrees they are not based in fact a couple new ones pop up. It's like a hydra of stupid.  :-\

I've only bottled my beers and I don't see it as that big of a pain. Like anything else in homebrewing there's ways to trim time if you really want (e.g. leaving the damn labels on the bottles). I'm not anti-kegging by any means but I'd say I could probably prep and bottle beer almost as quickly as you could clean a keg, sanitize, fill and pressurize. I don't think the time saving is immense. That's what I took his point to be but I might have undersold it to myself. I dunno, I'm not anti-kegging in the least. I own a couple cornys I bought cheaply a couple years ago I'm still using as fermentors because I don't have the space for a tap set up right now.

With all due respect, you say you've only bottled so you really don't have a comparison.  Kegging is MUCH faster than bottling.  I can have a keg sanitized and filled in 20 min.  It takes me at least that long just to sanitize enough bottles for a 5gal. batch.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: beersk on February 07, 2013, 10:46:26 AM
There's a tremendous amount of myth out there. It seems like every time a few get knocked down and everybody agrees they are not based in fact a couple new ones pop up. It's like a hydra of stupid.  :-\

I've only bottled my beers and I don't see it as that big of a pain. Like anything else in homebrewing there's ways to trim time if you really want (e.g. leaving the damn labels on the bottles). I'm not anti-kegging by any means but I'd say I could probably prep and bottle beer almost as quickly as you could clean a keg, sanitize, fill and pressurize. I don't think the time saving is immense. That's what I took his point to be but I might have undersold it to myself. I dunno, I'm not anti-kegging in the least. I own a couple cornys I bought cheaply a couple years ago I'm still using as fermentors because I don't have the space for a tap set up right now.

With all due respect, you say you've only bottled so you really don't have a comparison.  Kegging is MUCH faster than bottling.  I can have a keg sanitized and filled in 20 min.  It takes me at least that long just to sanitize enough bottles for a 5gal. batch.
Well do what you want, but I keg and bottle these days. It's nice to have the option to do both, have more beer around, thus more brewing.
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 07, 2013, 11:00:00 AM
I keg and bottle, too. Always have. Doesn't make the bottling any faster.
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: denny on February 07, 2013, 11:13:35 AM
Well do what you want, but I keg and bottle these days. It's nice to have the option to do both, have more beer around, thus more brewing.

I don't know why you'd assume I don't do both.  If I didn't, I wouldn't be able to make the comparison.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 07, 2013, 11:57:36 AM
In terms of saving money with this hobby, I always point out to my wife the costs of my other two hobbies - Golf (greens fees, new equipment, huge time commitment away from home) and Fishing (gas for driving to lake, gas for boat, huge time commitment away from home).  Both of those cost way more to do than my homebrewing, so when she sees me homebrewing, she figures that I'm saving the household money compared to what I would otherwise be doing and at least I'm at home where she can ask me to help with something when the mash is set or the boil is reached!

Just sayin' ;)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 07, 2013, 12:00:23 PM
You just hit that point skillfully!  That of keeping the wife happy.  Never a bad thing for homebrewers!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: mmitchem on February 07, 2013, 12:04:02 PM
And let us not forget that brewing is a hobby that will be shared by all without even leaving the house!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 07, 2013, 12:35:45 PM
As far as my time investment, anything times 0 is zero. I do like retirement.

Not saying that I am worthless.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 07, 2013, 12:38:30 PM
Except: You aren't factoring in your labor let alone your equipment. Homebrew is some of the most expensive beer in the world.

I know we've argued this in other threads, but on a per beer basis I really do think it's economical.  I could go buy 5 gallons of Chimay (approx 25 750ml bottles) at $8 each (plus tax).  Or I could brew 5 gallons at +/- $50.  I'll take the homebrew, as to me that's a bargain.

You have to do something with your time.  You can't bank it up.  So rather than the cost of your time this should be opportunity cost.  If you have something better to do, go do it.  If not, why not spend it brewing.  It also takes time to go to the store and buy beer.  No one factors that into the cost of bottled beer.

Equipment can be as expensive or cheap as you desire.  From an overall hobby perspective, it can make the hobby expensive.  On a per beer basis, I don't think equipment cost is applicable.  The money is already spent, so it doesn't impact what it costs you to make that next beer.  If you insist on including it, you should amortize it over every beer you've ever made which makes the per beer cost approach zero, eventually.  Obviously, if you don't yet have the equipment that changes the analysis.

I can agree that I would never recommend that someone get into the hobby to save money on beer.  But since I already have everything I need to make beer, the marginal cost of the next beer is pretty low.  Which makes it economical for me.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 07, 2013, 12:48:08 PM
i understand. but i don't consider how expensive my time is when i am out for a bike ride, growing tomatoes etc.  infact, i have installed my own hardwood floors, resided my house, built my own shed, when i could have probably been working and made more than what i would have paid someone to do it for me, but i need a change of scenery from the normal work i do, the labor is theraputic for me, and there is always the "ha, i can do that" factor.

I know what you are saying but if you have a friend come over and drink 12 big pints of your czech lager that you have been hanging onto for 3 months and he blows the keg or you have a leak in your poppet and you leak an entire keg of Belgian Quad into your keggerator what is it that hurts the most? Is it the cost of ingredients or the time you put into it?

my foot in his ass. 8)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Jimmy K on February 07, 2013, 12:50:24 PM
i understand. but i don't consider how expensive my time is when i am out for a bike ride, growing tomatoes etc.  infact, i have installed my own hardwood floors, resided my house, built my own shed, when i could have probably been working and made more than what i would have paid someone to do it for me, but i need a change of scenery from the normal work i do, the labor is theraputic for me, and there is always the "ha, i can do that" factor.

I know what you are saying but if you have a friend come over and drink 12 big pints of your czech lager that you have been hanging onto for 3 months and he blows the keg or you have a leak in your poppet and you leak an entire keg of Belgian Quad into your keggerator what is it that hurts the most? Is it the cost of ingredients or the time you put into it?

my foot in his ass. 8)
Ask Euge
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: narvin on February 07, 2013, 12:58:01 PM
I don't know if any of these are really myths, or at least common ones.  This seems more like debatable topics of interest, with a few terminology errors thrown in.  Using a hop back while recirc chilling is defeating the purpose of it, though this just sounds like a mistake.

What about:

1-2-3 week primary-secondary-bottle schedule should be followed
Smacking the smack pack = making a starter
Lag time is an important indicator of fermentation quality
Cleaning = sanitizing, sanitizer should be rinsed, etc.
Chalk works
etc...

EDIT: I guess the author doesn't bill these as being "top 10" myths.
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 07, 2013, 12:58:36 PM
Except: You aren't factoring in your labor let alone your equipment. Homebrew is some of the most expensive beer in the world.

I know we've argued this in other threads, but on a per beer basis I really do think it's economical.  I could go buy 5 gallons of Chimay (approx 25 750ml bottles) at $8 each (plus tax).  Or I could brew 5 gallons at +/- $50.  I'll take the homebrew, as to me that's a bargain.

You have to do something with your time.  You can't bank it up.  So rather than the cost of your time this should be opportunity cost.  If you have something better to do, go do it.  If not, why not spend it brewing.  It also takes time to go to the store and buy beer.  No one factors that into the cost of bottled beer.

Equipment can be as expensive or cheap as you desire.  From an overall hobby perspective, it can make the hobby expensive.  On a per beer basis, I don't think equipment cost is applicable.  The money is already spent, so it doesn't impact what it costs you to make that next beer.  If you insist on including it, you should amortize it over every beer you've ever made which makes the per beer cost approach zero, eventually.  Obviously, if you don't yet have the equipment that changes the analysis.

I can agree that I would never recommend that someone get into the hobby to save money on beer.  But since I already have everything I need to make beer, the marginal cost of the next beer is pretty low.  Which makes it economical for me.

But that's just it. If you think you are starting a hobby to save money on beer you are wrong. People who spend hours  on brewday and weeks cellaring and hours packaging do it for the love. It's not really saving money.

Homebrewing to me is very special and I to me that beer doesn't have  aprice tag. That is something I made with my skill and you are lucky if I share it with you. But I don't look at it as cheap by any means. Not anymore than I look at the hand knitted mittens, scarf and toboggan than my wife made me as "cheap".
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 07, 2013, 01:27:14 PM


But that's just it. If you think you are starting a hobby to save money on beer you are wrong. People who spend hours  on brewday and weeks cellaring and hours packaging do it for the love. It's not really saving money.

Homebrewing to me is very special and I to me that beer doesn't have  aprice tag. That is something I made with my skill and you are lucky if I share it with you. But I don't look at it as cheap by any means. Not anymore than I look at the hand knitted mittens, scarf and toboggan than my wife made me as "cheap".

that may sum it up the best, and primarily puts us on the same page.  fundamentally, to really save money on beer,  drink water.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 07, 2013, 02:49:49 PM
But that's just it. If you think you are starting a hobby to save money on beer you are wrong. People who spend hours  on brewday and weeks cellaring and hours packaging do it for the love. It's not really saving money.

Homebrewing to me is very special and I to me that beer doesn't have  aprice tag. That is something I made with my skill and you are lucky if I share it with you. But I don't look at it as cheap by any means. Not anymore than I look at the hand knitted mittens, scarf and toboggan than my wife made me as "cheap".

I don't think anyone ever said "cheap." 

If your only goal is to save money on beer, probably best to just drink PBR.

I would probably never buy the quantity of Belgian beer, old ales, imperial stouts, etc. that I brew.  At the price they cost, I certainly wouldn't give them away as freely as I do my homebrew.
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 07, 2013, 03:09:27 PM
But that's just it. If you think you are starting a hobby to save money on beer you are wrong. People who spend hours  on brewday and weeks cellaring and hours packaging do it for the love. It's not really saving money.

Homebrewing to me is very special and I to me that beer doesn't have  aprice tag. That is something I made with my skill and you are lucky if I share it with you. But I don't look at it as cheap by any means. Not anymore than I look at the hand knitted mittens, scarf and toboggan than my wife made me as "cheap".

I don't think anyone ever said "cheap." 

If your only goal is to save money on beer, probably best to just drink PBR.

I would probably never buy the quantity of Belgian beer, old ales, imperial stouts, etc. that I brew.  At the price they cost, I certainly wouldn't give them away as freely as I do my homebrew.

Semantics aside, cheaper than craft beer is all I meant. Point being that you aren't really saving money IF you count for your time. If you don
t count your time then it maybe cheaper assuming you aren't a brewer gadget head who is spending 100's of bucks every year on a new toy.

But I feel like if you aren't counting your time you aren't really being honest to yourself. Saturday and Sunday mornings are hard to put a monetary value on.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: a10t2 on February 07, 2013, 03:44:07 PM
But I feel like if you aren't counting your time you aren't really being honest to yourself. Saturday and Sunday mornings are hard to put a monetary value on.

Especially if you're already brewing five days a week. Brewing again at home starts to feel like a chore after a while. I know, there are people who would kill to have that problem... ::)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 07, 2013, 03:50:31 PM
But I feel like if you aren't counting your time you aren't really being honest to yourself. Saturday and Sunday mornings are hard to put a monetary value on.

Especially if you're already brewing five days a week. Brewing again at home starts to feel like a chore after a while. I know, there are people who would kill to have that problem... ::)

exactly, what i meant though about doing something else. i could work every saturday and sunday, and make more than enough to pay people to do the s*** around my house that i do on saturday and sunday.  to me brewing is a leisure sport. 
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 07, 2013, 06:21:45 PM
But I feel like if you aren't counting your time you aren't really being honest to yourself. Saturday and Sunday mornings are hard to put a monetary value on.

Especially if you're already brewing five days a week. Brewing again at home starts to feel like a chore after a while. I know, there are people who would kill to have that problem... ::)

I don't brew at the house anymore but I do have my homebrew setup down at the brewery and I brew a couple of batches for me on it two or three times a year.

Though lately I have been doing my "test batches" 7 bbl batches on the brew rig. Takes a little less time, actually!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: tschmidlin on February 07, 2013, 11:23:34 PM
I'm convinced you have too much free time.
Maybe.  I need more sleep :)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: tschmidlin on February 07, 2013, 11:25:05 PM
i can boil water in a paper cup on a camp fire though 8)
Sure, if you put it in the right spot.  But not if you don't. :)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: troybinso on February 08, 2013, 08:16:19 AM
But I feel like if you aren't counting your time you aren't really being honest to yourself. Saturday and Sunday mornings are hard to put a monetary value on.

I woudn't factor my time into the cost of homebrewing. Sure I may be able to make money during the time I am homebrewing, but I LIKE to homebrew. I certainly wouldn't pay someone to come over to my house and set up the brew system, brew a batch and the get it in the fermenters for me. Come check on it daily and keg it when it is ready. Those are things I enjoy doing on Saturday and Sunday mornings.
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 08, 2013, 08:21:01 AM
But I feel like if you aren't counting your time you aren't really being honest to yourself. Saturday and Sunday mornings are hard to put a monetary value on.

I woudn't factor my time into the cost of homebrewing. Sure I may be able to make money during the time I am homebrewing, but I LIKE to homebrew. I certainly wouldn't pay someone to come over to my house and set up the brew system, brew a batch and the get it in the fermenters for me. Come check on it daily and keg it when it is ready. Those are things I enjoy doing on Saturday and Sunday mornings.

But, it's the time you put into it that makes it so special! (OK, we are back here again. I quit. Y'all know and any major economist worth his salt would agree with me. ;)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 08, 2013, 08:24:10 AM
But I feel like if you aren't counting your time you aren't really being honest to yourself. Saturday and Sunday mornings are hard to put a monetary value on.

I woudn't factor my time into the cost of homebrewing. Sure I may be able to make money during the time I am homebrewing, but I LIKE to homebrew. I certainly wouldn't pay someone to come over to my house and set up the brew system, brew a batch and the get it in the fermenters for me. Come check on it daily and keg it when it is ready. Those are things I enjoy doing on Saturday and Sunday mornings.

But, it's the time you put into it that makes it so special! (OK, we are back here again. I quit. Y'all know and any major economist worth his salt would agree with me. ;)

Years ago a deer hunter I worked with said if you added it all up, the venison was about $50 a pound at the cheapest. Yeah, I agree that my homebrew is not cheap.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 08, 2013, 08:37:57 AM
It's all in your interpretation. I think that the  "Time= $$"  argument, for me, is on things I HAVE to do (ie., clean gutters, mow, car repairs,etc.).  Going to a movie, concert, sporting event, or most importantly, brewing, are things I LOVE to do, and are escapes from the Monday - Friday grind, when I am concerned with having to bring home money. You have to do SOMETHING on the weekends. 
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 08, 2013, 09:23:46 AM
so to make my homebrew cheaper, i should quit my job and be unemployed.  then my time is worth less....
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: brewmichigan on February 08, 2013, 09:26:11 AM
so to make my homebrew cheaper, i should quit my job and be unemployed.  then my time is worth less....

Bingo!
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 08, 2013, 11:49:49 AM
I just love to argue about stupid stuff. Especially when I'm right.:P
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: narvin on February 08, 2013, 02:43:21 PM
If you like cheap beer, it's not cheaper  :D

But, if you have a salaried job with no overtime, enjoy brewing, and like $20 bottles of Belgian beer, you bet your sweet ass it's cheaper.  As long as you disregard equipment costs, which would totally go to some other hobby anyway if you had more time (artisinal mustard?).

I just bottled about $1000 worth of Gueze and Kriek according to market prices.  Considering how cheap pils malt, raw wheat berries, and old hops are, that paid for my pump/chiller/fermentation freezer!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Slowbrew on February 08, 2013, 03:11:18 PM
If you like cheap beer, it's not cheaper  :D

But, if you have a salaried job with no overtime, enjoy brewing, and like $20 bottles of Belgian beer, you bet your sweet ass it's cheaper.  As long as you disregard equipment costs, which would totally go to some other hobby anyway if you had more time (artisinal mustard?).

I just bottled about $1000 worth of Gueze and Kriek according to market prices.  Considering how cheap pils malt, raw wheat berries, and old hops are, that paid for my pump/chiller/fermentation freezer!

I agree with you completely.  You picked a bad example though.  8^) 

I make my own mustard.  All you need is ingredients, something to store it in (like a Tupperware bowl) and a blender.  Probably my least costly hobby.

Paul
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: kmccaf on February 08, 2013, 03:29:31 PM
If you like cheap beer, it's not cheaper  :D

But, if you have a salaried job with no overtime, enjoy brewing, and like $20 bottles of Belgian beer, you bet your sweet ass it's cheaper.  As long as you disregard equipment costs, which would totally go to some other hobby anyway if you had more time (artisinal mustard?).

I just bottled about $1000 worth of Gueze and Kriek according to market prices.  Considering how cheap pils malt, raw wheat berries, and old hops are, that paid for my pump/chiller/fermentation freezer!

I agree with you completely.  You picked a bad example though.  8^) 

I make my own mustard.  All you need is ingredients, something to store it in (like a Tupperware bowl) and a blender.  Probably my least costly hobby.

Paul

The most expensive thing that goes into my mustard is my homebrew.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: narvin on February 08, 2013, 04:10:46 PM
If you like cheap beer, it's not cheaper  :D

But, if you have a salaried job with no overtime, enjoy brewing, and like $20 bottles of Belgian beer, you bet your sweet ass it's cheaper.  As long as you disregard equipment costs, which would totally go to some other hobby anyway if you had more time (artisinal mustard?).

I just bottled about $1000 worth of Gueze and Kriek according to market prices.  Considering how cheap pils malt, raw wheat berries, and old hops are, that paid for my pump/chiller/fermentation freezer!

I agree with you completely.  You picked a bad example though.  8^) 

I make my own mustard.  All you need is ingredients, something to store it in (like a Tupperware bowl) and a blender.  Probably my least costly hobby.

Paul

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-on-internet-almost-falls-into-world-of-diy-mus,17013/
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 08, 2013, 04:48:34 PM
Still never going to get me to look at the amount of time you put into a project as a commodity. My time is precious to me, especially my free time. In that case, my homebrew has been some of the most expensive beer in the world! Y'all with cheaper time need to come over and wash my car and pressure wash my house this weekend.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: narvin on February 08, 2013, 05:49:59 PM
Still never going to get me to look at the amount of time you put into a project as a commodity. My time is precious to me, especially my free time. In that case, my homebrew has been some of the most expensive beer in the world! Y'all with cheaper time need to come over and wash my car and pressure wash my house this weekend.

Never? I'm not going to give up that easily!

Obviously I wouldn't suggest brewing beer ONLY because it's cheaper, but it could be considered a perk.  If I ended up with natty lite, I wouldn't be wasting my time on it, but often DIY has an element of quality in it as well.  Savings aren't huge, but they exist... whether or not I give away enough beer to negate them is irrelevant  :)

Would you say cooking dinner at home is more expensive than getting take out because it takes you a couple hours?  Time is precious and you have to prioritize, but I don't buy that argument.
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 08, 2013, 08:17:05 PM
Dinner doesn't take me 8!hours of constant monitoring followed by several week of babysitting. Items at the grocery store are also competitively priced and not marked up at a hobby shop scale.

In fact, I can make dinner at home in less than the amount of time it takes me to drive to a restaurant , get seated, and drive home!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 08, 2013, 10:22:44 PM
Similarly it takes me time to go to the store and buy beer. And I have lots of down time during my brew day. And doubt I spend more than a minute checking fermentation temps 

I am actually starting to forget what we were discussing here and I don't have enough time to re read the thread so off to have some fruit of my labor
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: tschmidlin on February 08, 2013, 11:48:03 PM
I get where you're coming from Keith, but if you are going to include the time spent brewing in the cost of the product, then you are going to have to include the reward you get from drinking your hand made product and (for me) more importantly the pleasure of sharing it with friends.  Nobody ever asks any of my neighbors to bring their boat, fancy car, or expensive bicycle to parties.  And no one is really impressed if you bring a 6 pack of craft beer to a party.  But if you make it yourself . . . it's hard to put a price on that, but it is certainly worth more than my time.
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 09, 2013, 05:24:33 AM
How much would you sell it for then, and feel comfortable parting with it? That's what it really boils down to. FTW!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 09, 2013, 06:22:39 AM
well since i tend to give it away already....

however, i never seem to be taken advantage of.  if that were the case then i would probably feel more like you do.  also i don't have a business of brewing as you do.  so i guess that means my beer either sucks or i don't have enough friends.  >:(
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Slowbrew on February 09, 2013, 07:44:34 AM
If you like cheap beer, it's not cheaper  :D

But, if you have a salaried job with no overtime, enjoy brewing, and like $20 bottles of Belgian beer, you bet your sweet ass it's cheaper.  As long as you disregard equipment costs, which would totally go to some other hobby anyway if you had more time (artisinal mustard?).

I just bottled about $1000 worth of Gueze and Kriek according to market prices.  Considering how cheap pils malt, raw wheat berries, and old hops are, that paid for my pump/chiller/fermentation freezer!

I agree with you completely.  You picked a bad example though.

I make my own mustard.  All you need is ingredients, something to store it in (like a Tupperware bowl) and a blender.  Probably my least costly hobby.

Paul

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-on-internet-almost-falls-into-world-of-diy-mus,17013/

Sounds a lot like some brewing forums we might become part of.   8)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: euge on February 09, 2013, 09:43:29 AM
As far as my time investment, anything times 0 is zero. I do like retirement.

Not saying that I am worthless.

You are not worthless but worthmore!

I'm embracing retirement as soon as feasible. Maybe in my 50's? Then the fun begins!
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: stealthbrewer on February 09, 2013, 11:33:21 AM
I have only bottled so far but recently bought a keg and need to get all the other things necessary to keg my batch.
The real obstacle is getting a fridge to fit my keg AND fit into my apartment. 
One of the things I do like about bottling is that I get my daughters involved helping me with the process making it a Family effort! 
Dan
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 09, 2013, 11:48:18 AM
In fact, I can make dinner at home in less than the amount of time it takes me to drive to a restaurant , get seated, and drive home!

But you're not factoring in the cost of the house you cook it in, the cost of your stove, the cost of the gas you use to cook, the time it took you to go to the store and shop, the time it takes you to clean up, etc. etc.

I said it earlier in the thread, but what you are really arguing is opportunity cost.  So if the cost of brewing is that you don't wash your car, go ahead and factor that in.  But you can't assume that you're going to be paid a salary for all of your waking hours.

We will not agree, so I'll stop now.

One of the things I do like about bottling is that I get my daughters involved helping me with the process making it a Family effort! 
Dan

One of my daughters helps me keg.  The other is not interested.  They have also labelled bottles for me, but I would be concerned about loss if I let them actually bottle.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: beersk on February 09, 2013, 12:24:19 PM
In fact, I can make dinner at home in less than the amount of time it takes me to drive to a restaurant , get seated, and drive home!

But you're not factoring in the cost of the house you cook it in, the cost of your stove, the cost of the gas you use to cook, the time it took you to go to the store and shop, the time it takes you to clean up, etc. etc.

I said it earlier in the thread, but what you are really arguing is opportunity cost.  So if the cost of brewing is that you don't wash your car, go ahead and factor that in.  But you can't assume that you're going to be paid a salary for all of your waking hours.

We will not agree, so I'll stop now.


But this is a constant, it's already there anyway.  I don't think it's to be factored in, especially if you are renting or those things were there when you moved in in the first place. I'm also with Keith on cooking, but I think he is just f*cking with you guys. Time is a constant too.  Anything worth doing takes effort but if brewing is a chore for you, you maybe shouldn't be doing it. 
I mean, yes, it's easier to just go to a restaurant and have someone cook for you, but there's so much more satisfaction in cooking a meal the way you like it, knowing what goes into your food, and having cooked it yourself.  And also improving at it, learning what makes what do what, etc.  It's a lifetime skill.  Time spent doing it really isn't a factor if it's worth it to you to be doing it, whether it be cooking, brewing, practicing an instrument, etc.
Otherwise, just give up and off yourself now because life isn't worth your time.
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 09, 2013, 04:44:03 PM
Too bad guys. I already called FTW!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: euge on February 09, 2013, 04:59:56 PM
Actually, I've cut eating out to once a month or less. I'm saving a fortune and am eating and drinking like a King and still saving money.

It's really easy to whip up meals if certain things are kept in stock.

I still find myself buying mayonnaise. My mustard doesn't go bad but am scared to make and keep mayonnaise for fear of it going off. But, there doesn't seem to be any preservatives in my Duke's mayo and it keeps as good as my mustard.

I figure my time is worth at least $1 per year of my age.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: narvin on February 09, 2013, 05:41:19 PM
Dinner doesn't take me 8!hours of constant monitoring followed by several week of babysitting. Items at the grocery store are also competitively priced and not marked up at a hobby shop scale.

In fact, I can make dinner at home in less than the amount of time it takes me to drive to a restaurant , get seated, and drive home!

Sorry, don't buy it.  Don't you have delivery down in the bayou?  That takes no time at all.

8 hours is for 10 gallons, not one dinner.  Beer ingredients don't go bad in a week, either.  On the other hand, going to the grocery store or farmers market bi-weekly to keep fresh food around takes time.  And the prices for bulk grain and hops are comparable to Costco food prices.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: weithman5 on February 09, 2013, 08:32:09 PM
Too bad guys. I already called FTW!
Crap :(
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 10, 2013, 08:15:44 AM
Dinner doesn't take me 8!hours of constant monitoring followed by several week of babysitting. Items at the grocery store are also competitively priced and not marked up at a hobby shop scale.

In fact, I can make dinner at home in less than the amount of time it takes me to drive to a restaurant , get seated, and drive home!

Sorry, don't buy it.  Don't you have delivery down in the bayou?  That takes no time at all.

8 hours is for 10 gallons, not one dinner.  Beer ingredients don't go bad in a week, either.  On the other hand, going to the grocery store or farmers market bi-weekly to keep fresh food around takes time.  And the prices for bulk grain and hops are comparable to Costco food prices.

 I don't even have cell phone service or cable let alone delivery. Dont live in the bayou, live on the Cumberland plateau.

I sure hope you are coming to NHC this year. We need to arm wrestle!
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 10, 2013, 08:16:47 AM
Too bad guys. I already called FTW!
Crap :(

Lol. :)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: narvin on February 10, 2013, 10:19:54 AM
Dinner doesn't take me 8!hours of constant monitoring followed by several week of babysitting. Items at the grocery store are also competitively priced and not marked up at a hobby shop scale.

In fact, I can make dinner at home in less than the amount of time it takes me to drive to a restaurant , get seated, and drive home!

Sorry, don't buy it.  Don't you have delivery down in the bayou?  That takes no time at all.

8 hours is for 10 gallons, not one dinner.  Beer ingredients don't go bad in a week, either.  On the other hand, going to the grocery store or farmers market bi-weekly to keep fresh food around takes time.  And the prices for bulk grain and hops are comparable to Costco food prices.

 I don't even have cell phone service or cable let alone delivery. Dont live in the bayou, live on the Cumberland plateau.

I sure hope you are coming to NHC this year. We need to arm wrestle!

I'll be there. 
I call FTW now!
Title: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: majorvices on February 10, 2013, 10:34:00 AM
Well, guess I need to start doing some push ups! :)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: bluesman on February 10, 2013, 09:09:17 PM
Well, guess I need to start doing some push ups! :)

...and don't forget the YH when you come up for NHC. I'll ref the arm wrestling match for a YH.  ;)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: brewsumore on February 18, 2013, 09:05:53 PM
I added a couple thoughts as a comment to Michael's article:

Good points Michael!  I thought of a few other myths, or at least untenable assumptions:

Brewhouse efficiency via fly sparging cannot be matched via batch sparging. (with good mash pH management and other BMPs, batch sparging can yield excellent efficiency)

No break material should be carried over from kettle to fermenter. (a little break material actually helps the fermentation)

pH strips are not accurate enough for beer making. (some are accurate enough, i.e. plastic ones, especially ColorpHast +.3 to test pH of the mash, sparge, pre-boil, etc.)

High alpha hops are not good candidates for dry hopping. (nonsense, as seen with amarillo, columbus, citra, etc.)

The best beers utilize water adjustment profiles based on famous brewing city water profiles. (not true, since those profiles were often manipulated by the breweries there and so should not always be seen as the starting point for building your water profile)
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: dogugotw on March 23, 2013, 05:47:33 PM
I was on a aircraft carrier a couple of years back (fun, not working) and noticed that they had squeeze bottles of mayo that never left the mess tables.  The bottles also had on 'refrigerate after opening' warning.
I contacted the manufacturer and it turns out that mayo, clean mayo, won't spoil; the pH is too low.  You get into problems if you add anything to the mayo, then the pH goes up and things will grow.

The 'refrigerate after opening' message really has to do with the taste and texture of the product rather than spoilage.

Who knew?

I still find myself buying mayonnaise. My mustard doesn't go bad but am scared to make and keep mayonnaise for fear of it going off. But, there doesn't seem to be any preservatives in my Duke's mayo and it keeps as good as my mustard.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: klickitat jim on March 23, 2013, 05:59:46 PM
I add hotdogs to my beer but no mayo or mustard. Call me a minimalist. ..

Biggest myth discovered so far is that you can "save" anything by spending money on a hobby. They don't deposit that money into your bank and the time doesn't get added to your lifespan.  However,  it's a proven fact that I think draft tastes better than bottles

"Freedom is temporary unless you are also Brave!" - Patriot

Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: kgs on March 23, 2013, 07:42:39 PM
How about the big one? Home brewing saves money.

This needs moderated before our wives/girlfriends see it!  :)

As a lady homebrewer, I can attest homebrewing saves money. Not on making beer... but I am not even that interested in clothing and somehow a trip to the mall results in several blouses for work, new socks, etc. The time invested in researching recipes, shopping for ingredients, brewing, and bottling coopts shopping time, and means that I wear my work duds until I am totally sick of them.  So there you go!
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: euge on March 24, 2013, 02:36:47 PM
I'm far down the slope of amortization for my equipment purchases. However, I'm not that disciplined of a brewer to keep up a schedule- which is where the savings come in IMO.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: Jimmy K on March 25, 2013, 06:32:28 AM
I was on a aircraft carrier a couple of years back (fun, not working) and noticed that they had squeeze bottles of mayo that never left the mess tables.  The bottles also had on 'refrigerate after opening' warning.
I contacted the manufacturer and it turns out that mayo, clean mayo, won't spoil; the pH is too low.  You get into problems if you add anything to the mayo, then the pH goes up and things will grow.

The 'refrigerate after opening' message really has to do with the taste and texture of the product rather than spoilage.

Who knew?

I still find myself buying mayonnaise. My mustard doesn't go bad but am scared to make and keep mayonnaise for fear of it going off. But, there doesn't seem to be any preservatives in my Duke's mayo and it keeps as good as my mustard.
A few years back Alton Brown made mayo on Good Eats. He said after blending that it was important to let it sit at room temp for several hours. Reason? -- The low pH will kill any bacterial infections, but those metabolic pathways are slowed at low temp, so a low temperature will actually preserve the bacteria from being killed by the low pH.
Title: Re: The Mad Fermentationist's Top 10 Myths
Post by: euge on March 25, 2013, 02:22:45 PM
Thanks man! Once the Duke's runs out a go at keeping mayo in the fridge for more than a week will be underway.