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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 03:03:36 AM

Title: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 03:03:36 AM
So I pitched my 1gal starter of wlp802 ( .5 gal stepped to another .5 gal...estimated at 500 bill cells) into my pilsner at 1.051OG. I pitched decanted starter into 60f wort and It started fermenting after 6 hours, and now at about 81 hours of fermentation, it's at 1.020. I'm thinking tomorrow night I better do the d-rest, as at 1.019 I'm at about 80% complete since my final should be about 1.010.  My fermentation temp has been 51-52f.  This just seems really fast to me...but I've never used this yeast before.  Ay thoughts?
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: BrewQwest on February 20, 2013, 05:00:40 AM
First off....pitching your gallon starter is not really what you did...you made two of the one-half gallon starters which is not the same at all... did you use a stir plate? did you aerate with an aquarium pump? did you use oxygen? forgive me if I do not know your past posts, but many people coming to this forum would not know either unless you specified with more information......IMHO, your fermentation stage is only 61% completed from what you described so why would you want to do the D-rest this early? my math may be wrong and if so I apologize...cheers!!-
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 11:20:20 AM
First off....pitching your gallon starter is not really what you did...you made two of the one-half gallon starters which is not the same at all... did you use a stir plate? did you aerate with an aquarium pump? did you use oxygen? forgive me if I do not know your past posts, but many people coming to this forum would not know either unless you specified with more information......IMHO, your fermentation stage is only 61% completed from what you described so why would you want to do the D-rest this early? my math may be wrong and if so I apologize...cheers!!-


right.... ;)   you can relax now.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: davidgzach on February 20, 2013, 12:30:13 PM
Looking at Mr. Malty and Yeastcalc, you needed 375 Billion cells if that was a 5.25G batch.  If you pitched 500B, then that speed would not surprise me.  That being the case, take a taste and see whether you need a diacetyl rest at all.  You pitched plenty of yeast and sounds like they were quite healthy!

Dave
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 12:39:38 PM
Looking at Mr. Malty and Yeastcalc, you needed 375 Billion cells if that was a 5.25G batch.  If you pitched 500B, then that speed would not surprise me.  That being the case, take a taste and see whether you need a diacetyl rest at all.  You pitched plenty of yeast and sounds like they were quite healthy!

Dave


dave- thanks for the constructive feedback. my fault for not saying, but i was 5.75 gallons in the carboy.  mr.malty and other calcs called for about 410bil, so you are correct stating i pitched a little high (by design).

i was just surprised how quickly its moved. im targeting around 1.016-.017 to do the d-rest...i just prefer to do it as matter of practice vs. skipping it and getting burned by the butter...so to speak. ;D

thanks again for the feedback.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 01:11:06 PM
maybe my math for figuring % fermentation is off...if im looking for about 75% completion, whats the formula?

thanks
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 20, 2013, 01:58:36 PM
Most of my lagers of that OG range are done in 5 or 6 days. I pitch at about 44 to 45 F, so a wrmer pitch means it will start faster, but may make more VDKs.

Time to do the D rest at 1.020 for a 1.050 beer Is about 1.020 so I agree.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 02:12:55 PM
Most of my lagers of that OG range are done in 5 or 6 days. I pitch at about 44 to 45 F, so a wrmer pitch means it will start faster, but may make more VDKs.

Time to do the D rest at 1.020 for a 1.050 beer Is about 1.020 so I agree.

thanks for confirming the math... i guess i figured pitching at 60F was only slightly higher than my target ferm temp of 52F.  once i put it into lager chamber, it didn't take long to drop down to my set temp of 52F. hopefully this isn't a negative in the final product. i will have to experiment with lower pitching temps and compare.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: denny on February 20, 2013, 05:22:29 PM
i will have to experiment with lower pitching temps and compare.

Yeah, you should.  I found that my lagers turned out better when I started pitching a bit below fermentation temp and letting it rise to the temp intended.  Give it a try and compare the results to what you're doing now.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: blatz on February 20, 2013, 06:29:26 PM
i will have to experiment with lower pitching temps and compare.

Yeah, you should.  I found that my lagers turned out better when I started pitching a bit below fermentation temp and letting it rise to the temp intended.  Give it a try and compare the results to what you're doing now.

+1 - much, much better...
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 06:53:38 PM
i will have to experiment with lower pitching temps and compare.

Yeah, you should.  I found that my lagers turned out better when I started pitching a bit below fermentation temp and letting it rise to the temp intended.  Give it a try and compare the results to what you're doing now.

+1 - much, much better...

i believe you guys..probably my mistake last time also denny where i had slight diacetyl in the last lager Denny.

right now its at 1.020, and i tasted a touch of diacetyl. should i pull it now for d-rest or wait for it to move a few more points? i know my target FG is 1.010, which would make 1.020 the appropriate d-rest...but what if the beer intends to finish lower at 1.008-9. i'd hate to pull it early at 1.020 if that were the case...what would you guys do?
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: BrewQwest on February 20, 2013, 07:00:03 PM
Quote from: BrewQwest
.....IMHO, your fermentation stage is only 61% completed from what you described so why would you want to do the D-rest this early? my math may be wrong and if so I apologize...cheers!!-
Man, I apologize... For some reason I computed your attenuation rate reached at point 1.020 which was (51-20)/51 = 60.7% instead of your completion percentage... And when plugging your starter size into yeastcalc it helps if I remember to put it in gallons instead of liters ...No wonder I had the cell count off by so much... doh!!!... Sorry again...
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 07:01:24 PM
Quote from: BrewQwest
.....IMHO, your fermentation stage is only 61% completed from what you described so why would you want to do the D-rest this early? my math may be wrong and if so I apologize...cheers!!-
Man, I apologize... For some reason I computed your attenuation rate reached at point 1.020 which was (51-20)/51 = 60.7% instead of your completion percentage... And when plugging your starter size into yeastcalc it helps if I remember to put it in gallons instead of liters ...No wonder I had the cell count off by so much... doh!!!... Sorry again...

no worries  ;D
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 07:07:59 PM
i will have to experiment with lower pitching temps and compare.

Yeah, you should.  I found that my lagers turned out better when I started pitching a bit below fermentation temp and letting it rise to the temp intended.  Give it a try and compare the results to what you're doing now.

+1 - much, much better...

i believe you guys..probably my mistake last time also denny where i had slight diacetyl in the last lager Denny.

right now its at 1.020, and i tasted a touch of diacetyl. should i pull it now for d-rest or wait for it to move a few more points? i know my target FG is 1.010, which would make 1.020 the appropriate d-rest...but what if the beer intends to finish lower at 1.008-9. i'd hate to pull it early at 1.020 if that were the case...what would you guys do?

just wondering if waiting another day or two fermenting at 50-51F is better than pulling it now for d-rest, just in case it does end up at under 1.010.....any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!! thanks
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 20, 2013, 07:08:41 PM
If you are going to a secondary, you can do the d-rest now, but I just leave mine in the primary for a month without D-rests.  The yeast finish the lager off without a problem.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 07:10:52 PM
If you are going to a secondary, you can do the d-rest now, but I just leave mine in the primary for a month without D-rests.  The yeast finish the lager off without a problem.

no secondary...right to keg after fermentation is done. but considering i have diacetyl present now at 1.020 (75% of target 1.010) im questioning moving it now to d-rest or waiting for it to move a little lower just in case the beer actually finished up lower than 1.010..get what im saying?
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: a10t2 on February 20, 2013, 07:12:38 PM
You're well below the gravity where I would worry about temperature, so I say go ahead and start letting it warm up.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 07:15:14 PM
You're well below the gravity where I would worry about temperature, so I say go ahead and start letting it warm up.

ok appreciate it. and would you let it warm up and let it stay there until finished, or move it back to freezer after a few days and slowly drop temp to 45F..then transfer to keg after 2 weeks for lagering at 32?
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 20, 2013, 07:21:45 PM
You're well below the gravity where I would worry about temperature, so I say go ahead and start letting it warm up.

ok appreciate it. and would you let it warm up and let it stay there until finished, or move it back to freezer after a few days and slowly drop temp to 45F..then transfer to keg after 2 weeks for lagering at 32?
Warm it up. Fermentation will speed up and finish in 2 days in my experience. Then cool.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 07:26:57 PM
You're well below the gravity where I would worry about temperature, so I say go ahead and start letting it warm up.

ok appreciate it. and would you let it warm up and let it stay there until finished, or move it back to freezer after a few days and slowly drop temp to 45F..then transfer to keg after 2 weeks for lagering at 32?
Warm it up. Fermentation will speed up and finish in 2 days in my experience. Then cool.

thanks again so much..as you can see im new to lagers...been an ale guy exclusively until recently. already learned something today..pitch below target temp..around 45F next time!  question on that - i use copper chiller and can get wort down to about 60F. should i then stick the brew kettle in my freezer and wait for it to hit 45F, or transfer to carboy with airlock into freezer and wait for it to drop to 45F? not sure if the time in the kettle even with lid would expose wort to too much oxygen, and therefore carboy with airlock would be better.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 20, 2013, 07:29:54 PM
What he said.  My practice is no d-rest, since I leave it on the yeast for a month.  Your system sounds fine, too.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: blatz on February 20, 2013, 07:30:59 PM
transfer to carboy with airlock into freezer and wait for it to drop to 45F?

this.

then aerate and pitch your yeast.  you won't have "too much exposure to oxygen"  - the yeast need lots of oxygen right after pitching - you will be fine.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: denny on February 20, 2013, 08:09:27 PM
just wondering if waiting another day or two fermenting at 50-51F is better than pulling it now for d-rest, just in case it does end up at under 1.010.....any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!! thanks

I'd let it go.  Yeast cleans up diacetyl, so the more it ferments the more it should reduce the d.  FWIW, I pretty much always let it ferment to my expected FG, then do a d rest if needed.  It seldom is.

ETA:  having seen Sean and Jeff's comments, do what they say!
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 20, 2013, 08:23:02 PM
just wondering if waiting another day or two fermenting at 50-51F is better than pulling it now for d-rest, just in case it does end up at under 1.010.....any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!! thanks

I'd let it go.  Yeast cleans up diacetyl, so the more it ferments the more it should reduce the d.  FWIW, I pretty much always let it ferment to my expected FG, then do a d rest if needed.  It seldom is.

Denny- i think perhaps you never needed the d-rest anyway...correct? i ask because everything i have been told or read, says you need some yeast activty to clean up D if its present (the reason for performing d-rest at about 75%)...if you wait until its done, and you do have D, is it going to clean it up?

i guess my point is - you lager correctly and dont get diacetyl.(or very small amounts) i clearly made the mistake of pitching yeast at 60F vs. 45F, and i have diacetyl present now. chances are, keeping it at lager temps until its completed, would leave me with diacetyl since my levels were higher due to error in pitching temp....no?  all the more reason to do the d rest before it finishes is what im gathering from the feedback.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: denny on February 20, 2013, 08:24:37 PM
Denny- i think perhaps you never needed the d-rest anyway...correct? i ask because everything i have been told or read, says you need some yeast activty to clean up D if its present (the reason for performing d-rest at about 75%)...if you wait until its done, and you do have D, is it going to clean it up?

IME. yeah, it does clean up as long as it's still in primary.  Warming it up makes the yeast active enough to consume the d.  That said, I think you got good advice from Sean and Jeff.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: davidgzach on February 21, 2013, 10:17:47 PM
+1 to the above.  Warm it up and let it burn out/clean up the diacetyl.  You don't have to keg it once fermentation is complete.  Lager it on the cake for a few weeks if you can.  It will continue to condition and the yeast will go to sleep with nice reserves so you can reuse them on your next batch.

Dave
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 21, 2013, 10:39:56 PM
+1 to the above.  Warm it up and let it burn out/clean up the diacetyl.  You don't have to keg it once fermentation is complete.  Lager it on the cake for a few weeks if you can.  It will continue to condition and the yeast will go to sleep with nice reserves so you can reuse them on your next batch.

Dave

that's the game plan. plan on moving it back to 55F, then drop it a few degrees each day until 45F and leave it on cake for 2 weeks. then i will rack to keg for another 3 weeks at 34F.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: davidgzach on February 21, 2013, 10:46:52 PM
+1 to the above.  Warm it up and let it burn out/clean up the diacetyl.  You don't have to keg it once fermentation is complete.  Lager it on the cake for a few weeks if you can.  It will continue to condition and the yeast will go to sleep with nice reserves so you can reuse them on your next batch.

Dave

that's the game plan. plan on moving it back to 55F, then drop it a few degrees each day until 45F and leave it on cake for 2 weeks. then i will rack to keg for another 3 weeks at 34F.

Why stop at 45F on the cake?
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: ynotbrusum on February 21, 2013, 10:57:22 PM
+1 to the above.  Warm it up and let it burn out/clean up the diacetyl.  You don't have to keg it once fermentation is complete.  Lager it on the cake for a few weeks if you can.  It will continue to condition and the yeast will go to sleep with nice reserves so you can reuse them on your next batch.

Dave

that's the game plan. plan on moving it back to 55F, then drop it a few degrees each day until 45F and leave it on cake for 2 weeks. then i will rack to keg for another 3 weeks at 34F.

Why stop at 45F on the cake?

For me it is always just an issue of space.  One month in primary then to keg for bulk aging at colder temperatures - the kegs fit easier into the fridge that serves as my "on deck" area...and I need the space in the lager chest for the next batch going into primary.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 22, 2013, 12:49:44 AM
+1 to the above.  Warm it up and let it burn out/clean up the diacetyl.  You don't have to keg it once fermentation is complete.  Lager it on the cake for a few weeks if you can.  It will continue to condition and the yeast will go to sleep with nice reserves so you can reuse them on your next batch.

Dave

that's the game plan. plan on moving it back to 55F, then drop it a few degrees each day until 45F and leave it on cake for 2 weeks. then i will rack to keg for another 3 weeks at 34F.

Why stop at 45F on the cake?
well, my thought process is bring it down slowly since i had some diacetyl from pitching at 60F vs 45F. im in no rush, so figure i will keep the yeast doing their thing as long as possible before i crash it down to 34F for lagering.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: davidgzach on February 22, 2013, 12:40:42 PM
The rest should remove all of the diacetyl in the beer.  There is some debate about bringing it down gradually versus crash cooling.  I prefer 5F per day.  But once the beer is fermented and the D-rest is done, I like to get it straight down to 34F on the yeast for a week or two before kegging.

Dave
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 22, 2013, 12:50:49 PM
The rest should remove all of the diacetyl in the beer.  There is some debate about bringing it down gradually versus crash cooling.  I prefer 5F per day.  But once the beer is fermented and the D-rest is done, I like to get it straight down to 34F on the yeast for a week or two before kegging.

Dave

I hear you. Here's my dilemma - d-rest is at about 36 hours now, gravity dropped from1.020 to 1.012. I still taste diacetyl, and just ran the test ( sample covered in hot water for 30minutes, sample covered chilled). I cooled the hot sample to same temp as chilled sample....wait for it......butter smell in the heated sample.

So I'm questioning what to do. Do I leave the beer at 65f for another few days and try test again? Not sure how long at 65f is beneficial and if it becomes negative after certain period of time. Should I be swirling the carboy periodically also, getting more yeast into play?
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: hopfenundmalz on February 22, 2013, 12:54:40 PM
One can go cold and slow to reduce the Diacetyl or do a D-rest and crash. If you look at Kai's page and scroll down, you will see that there are 6 profiles graphed out. The traditional is A, the warm D-rest and crash is F.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

For wort-hog, if you still have Diacetyl, think about Krausening your beer.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 22, 2013, 01:09:29 PM
One can go cold and slow to reduce the Diacetyl or do a D-rest and crash. If you look at Kai's page and scroll down, you will see that there are 6 profiles graphed out. The traditional is A, the warm D-rest and crash is F.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Fermenting_Lagers

For wort-hog, if you still have Diacetyl, think about Krausening your beer.

should i wait and see in a few more days at 65F, or build a 1qt starter and pitch it in? im unsure if i should krausening at current temp, or drop the lager to 50F, and do my yeast starter at about 50F and pitch it...seems to me doing a yeast starter for krausening at room temp and pitching into room temp lager would produce more diacetyl....no?
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: davidgzach on February 22, 2013, 01:28:21 PM
I would give it a few more days at 65F.  You will not hurt the beer.  If you still taste a lot of diacetyl, then maybe try Krausening.  If just a little, then lager for 4-6 weeks.

Dave
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 22, 2013, 02:06:25 PM
I would give it a few more days at 65F.  You will not hurt the beer.  If you still taste a lot of diacetyl, then maybe try Krausening.  If just a little, then lager for 4-6 weeks.

Dave

would you rouse the yeast periodically over the next few days at 65F?
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: davidgzach on February 22, 2013, 02:11:48 PM
I typically just leave them be.

Dave
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 22, 2013, 02:56:32 PM
I typically just leave them be.

Dave

Go it. I have a suspicion i will need to proceed with krausening once i rack to the keg and before for lagering.

being new to lagers, im just frustrated that i didn't read about pitching at 48F or so with lagers..could have prevented all this monkeying around...next time!

I just cant stand the taste of diacetyl..i'd dump it before drinking it.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: davidgzach on February 22, 2013, 03:05:02 PM
If you leave it on the cake, you should be fine after an extended D-rest and lagering period.  The main thing with lagers is patience, especially if you have a flaw.  Everything takes longer with brewing lagers...

Dave
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 22, 2013, 03:12:14 PM
If you leave it on the cake, you should be fine after an extended D-rest and lagering period.  The main thing with lagers is patience, especially if you have a flaw.  Everything takes longer with brewing lagers...

Dave

when you say leave it on the cake - are you suggesting i leave it in my primary for 4-6 weeks before racking to keg for additional lagering time?
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: davidgzach on February 22, 2013, 05:24:43 PM
If you leave it on the cake, you should be fine after an extended D-rest and lagering period.  The main thing with lagers is patience, especially if you have a flaw.  Everything takes longer with brewing lagers...

Dave

when you say leave it on the cake - are you suggesting i leave it in my primary for 4-6 weeks before racking to keg for additional lagering time?

Yes, especially since you hate diacetyl.  I typically go 2-4 weeks on the cake, but 4-6 will not hurt you and should clean up everything real nice.
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 22, 2013, 06:17:13 PM
If you leave it on the cake, you should be fine after an extended D-rest and lagering period.  The main thing with lagers is patience, especially if you have a flaw.  Everything takes longer with brewing lagers...

Dave

when you say leave it on the cake - are you suggesting i leave it in my primary for 4-6 weeks before racking to keg for additional lagering time?

Yes, especially since you hate diacetyl.  I typically go 2-4 weeks on the cake, but 4-6 will not hurt you and should clean up everything real nice.

4 weeks it is! thanks for the guidance - much appreciated.

i figure i can do a d-test after 4 weeks on the cake, if i detect any diacetyl i will use krasuening as i rack it to the keg.

so with all the great advice, here's what i will do:

-let the d-rest continue until end of this weekend
- bring temp down to 45F, 2-3 degrees per 12 hours to keep more yeast in action
-leave on cake for 4 weeks, gradually lowering to 34F
-test for diacetyl.if non present, transfer to corny and drop gradually down to 32-33F and lager for 2-3 weeks. if diacetyl present, procced with krausening and then when completed gradually lower to 32-33F and lager for 2-3 weeks
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: davidgzach on February 22, 2013, 06:34:45 PM
Dude, if you still have diacetyl after a 5 day D-rest followed by 4 weeks at 34F on the cake, pack it in!   :o

Dave
Title: Re: Wlp802 went fast
Post by: Wort-H.O.G. on February 22, 2013, 06:43:41 PM
Dude, if you still have diacetyl after a 5 day D-rest followed by 4 weeks at 34F on the cake, pack it in!   :o

Dave


exactly... i'm just not experienced enough with the process for removing, and hope to exhaust all remedies before throwing in the towel and dumping the beer. for my third lager, i will most definitely cool wort to 45-48 F and pitch then..i think that has been my mistake on the first two lagers.