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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: jimrod on February 20, 2013, 05:55:21 AM

Title: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on February 20, 2013, 05:55:21 AM
I used a starter of 2 vials of wlp 060 San Diego Super Yeast, o2 injected, half gallon size starter, on a stir plate for 4 days. It is an 11 gal batch size at a controlled temperature of 66 degrees.

My OG was 1.074 and after 20 days it's now only 1.026.

 
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on February 20, 2013, 06:12:15 AM
I thought this yeast was fast. Do you think I need to raise the temperature? Is it unreal to expect the FG to be around 1.016 ? Any thoughts>?
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: ethalacker on February 20, 2013, 07:12:19 AM
What does your grain bill look like? What was your mash temp?  Both of these can affect final gravity.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: blatz on February 20, 2013, 07:18:59 AM
I thought this yeast was fast. Do you think I need to raise the temperature? Is it unreal to expect the FG to be around 1.016 ? Any thoughts>?

used it a few times and it was both fast and attenuative.  as ethalacker said, need to see the grainbill and mash temp - if it was a stout or something like that which includes a lot of specialty malts and or oatmeal, I could see that being the FG (1.026). 
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on February 20, 2013, 08:42:57 AM
Here is my grain bill:

17.00 lb Golden Promise (2.0 SRM) Grain 55.28 %
5.00 lb Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 16.26 %
4.75 lb Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 15.45 %
2.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 6.50 %
1.00 lb Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 3.25 %
1.00 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 3.25 %

Mashed at 153 and got 78% brew house efficiency. Fly Sparge.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on February 20, 2013, 08:45:59 AM
Are you using a refractometer or hydrometer to take your readings?

Also that is a fairly large amount of crystal malts, close to 10%. gonna leave a fair amount of unfermentables.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on February 20, 2013, 09:05:39 AM
+1.  A ton of unfermentables.  I think it's fermented all it can.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: blatz on February 20, 2013, 09:54:05 AM
i disagree.  10% crystal malts isn't what I'd consider a ton.  I'd still expect him to get in the mid to high teens with that grain bill, OG and yeast combo.  my porter uses 14% crystal malt and I still get 75-76% attenuation with chico.  I think he may have gotten a FUBAR batch of yeast - happens sometimes - when Denny's 50 first came out (when it was 2450 not 1450) it was a PITA to use. 
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on February 20, 2013, 09:58:49 AM
I use a hydrometer. I don't think 3# of crystal (9.75%)  on a 30.75# grain bill is an excessive amount of unfermentables. There's plenty of recipes that call for between 5-10# crystal malts. I wouldn't go higher than 10%. 

I was expecting 75-80% attenuation from this yeast which would give me 1.018 even with the crystal. This yeast has a high tolerance to alcohol, I'm at 6% ABV now.   I just have my doubts after 20 days.

Do you have any tricks to get another 10 points out of it?
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: repo on February 20, 2013, 10:02:42 AM
The grain bill is fine,  1.016 is not at all unattainable. The yeast starter of 2qts for 2 vials is inadequate- even if you got the yeast from white labs this morning. And 4 days on the stir plate, why? The temperature is fine also. How old was the yeast, one fermentor or two?
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on February 20, 2013, 10:26:56 AM
 <The yeast starter of 2qts for 2 vials is inadequate- even if you got the yeast from white labs this morning. And 4 days on the stir plate, why? The temperature is fine also. How old was the yeast, one fermentor or two?>

I was going to decant and step it up but that didn't happen. I thought 2 vials for 11 gal batch would be enough. No? I usually use one per 5 gal of Ale. Now lagers might use more.

The yeast was just purchased and I don't think it was old. I use one large 15 gal stainless fermentor.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 20, 2013, 10:43:57 AM
Do you have any tricks to get another 10 points out of it?

Get the yeast back in suspension by rocking the carboy gently.  You might want to do this every day until it finishes.

Raise the temp of the fermenter.

I have also pitched an active starter into stalled fermentations, but I don't know how effective this has been as it has been in conjunction with the above two steps.

Don't expect to see a whole new kraesun form.  Check the gravity after a couple days.  If it is dropping, be patient and keep rousing the yeast.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: repo on February 20, 2013, 11:17:34 AM
A number of factors contribute to the amount of yeast needed. Production date, wort size and gravity are at the top of the list. You do need more lager yeast for a comparable ale. For your current batch 6 vials produced today would be adequate. You did make a starter which helped a bit but was still too small.
Mrmalty.com and yeastcalc.com are 2 great tools that I use.

Beano is something I have heard of people using to drop some points on a stopped fermentation, I have never tried it though.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on February 20, 2013, 11:32:05 AM
Beano is something I have heard of people using to drop some points on a stopped fermentation, I have never tried it though.

Please do not use beano.

It will for sure drop a few extra points... then a few more... and a few more. Unless you heat it to denature the enzyme it'll keep chewing through dextrins and long chain sugars until the are gone.

I didn't mean to imply that 10% crystal was out of bounds. just a bit high. I agree it shouldn't result in a 1.026.

I have heard mixed reviews of this yeast's performance in general and one of the things was that it was slow and finicky.

kind of hard to rouse a 15 gallon fermenter though. can you push co2 through the bottom to kick the yeast back into suspension? either through the dump port if a conical or thorugh the 'out' tube if a corny?
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: snowtiger87 on February 20, 2013, 03:44:40 PM
I agree. Don't use Beano. But If all else fails you could try Amylase Enzyme (the active ingredient in Beano). It could help break down some of the unfermantables so the yeast can consume them.

I too had trouble the San Diego yeast. I brewed 3 beers with it and couldn't get any of them to finish below 1.020 - even though they should have.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on February 23, 2013, 02:48:41 AM
I've raised the temp to 68-70 for the last 3 days and rousted the yeast 2X per day. I'm still getting bubbles from the blow off tube occasionally but the gravity is still 1.024. that's pretty sugary.

Do you think it is worth trying to pitch a different yeast? or pitch a champagne yeast?
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 23, 2013, 07:20:38 AM
Do you think it is worth trying to pitch a different yeast?

Perhaps.  If you do so, though, I would pitch a large active starter.

or pitch a champagne yeast?

I would recommend against this.  I've never liked the flavor impact.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: hoser on February 23, 2013, 08:09:43 AM
I'd pitch an active oxygenated starter, approx. 1L of WLP007.  That should do the trick.

This method worked for me on 2 seperate occasions with WLP090 when I had a stuck ferment.  This is part of the reason I don't use this yeast anymore.  Too finicky, inconsistent, and doesn't always do what White Labs says it does.  Plus, it will occasionally throw off some diacetyl. I believe I have seen Neva Parker for White Labs pretty much say the same thing, and that it generally requires twice as much oxygenation as most of their other strains.

I would not use beano or a champagne yeast.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on February 27, 2013, 01:50:54 AM
I did take your suggestion and started a vial of wlp007 Dry English Ale yeast in one quart of starter on the stir plate for 24 hours. Then pitched and after 2 more days not one gravity point.

Does this yeast need more time or am I at terminal gravity now?

1.024 seems sweet for an APA.  I'm not sure what to do at this point.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on February 27, 2013, 02:03:24 AM
Beersmith says that my Apparent Attenuation is 66.0% and Real Attenuation is 53.2%
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: cornershot on February 27, 2013, 06:53:34 AM
I used a 2L starter of 090 on a 1.084 double ipa, mashed at 149f and oxygenated, and it reached  1.010 in 4 days. Great flavor profile. It even made the best dry stout I ever had! I love 090!
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: hoser on February 27, 2013, 07:12:55 AM
I did take your suggestion and started a vial of wlp007 Dry English Ale yeast in one quart of starter on the stir plate for 24 hours. Then pitched and after 2 more days not one gravity point.

Does this yeast need more time or am I at terminal gravity now?

1.024 seems sweet for an APA.  I'm not sure what to do at this point.

Well, if an active starter pitch of WLP007 didn't touch the gravity, then I am afraid to say your beer is done :(
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: cornershot on February 27, 2013, 08:05:00 AM
You could always pitch brett...
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 27, 2013, 08:24:20 AM
Could you not try something like a FFT at this point?

Pull a pint of the beer, add an entire packet of dry yeast and see if anything happens?

If you still have doubts, this should at least let you know if there beer has any further to go.

IME, when I've added fresh yeast to a stalled (or greatly slowed) fermentation, it has required LOTS of patience to get it to come down at all.

There is no harm in patience.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: Siamese Moose on February 27, 2013, 10:59:19 AM
Check out some of the pro brewer forums on this yeast. There is widespread agreement that it should never be allowed to drop below 69°. In addition, do not ever allow the temperature to drop. If that first rush of fermentation heats it up, and then it cools as it slows, it will stall. If it were my beer, at this point I would crank the temperature to the upper 70°s and agitate the crap out of the carboy, and hope for the best.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on March 03, 2013, 12:20:18 AM
Re pitched a wlp 007 on top of the San Diego Super Yeast 7 days ago from a 1000 ml starter. Gravity dropped to 1.022 and I think its over. I did raise the temp to 70-72 for a few days but didn't matter.

Not happy with wlp 090, won't ever use that one again.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: Joe Sr. on March 03, 2013, 07:40:17 AM
I think we all have one or two yeasts we will never use again.

I'll branch out now and then, but generally I stick with what I know works.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: erockrph on March 03, 2013, 10:36:54 AM
I've never used this yeast, and I honestly don't know if I ever will based on what I keep seeing on the forums. It is amazing how polarized everyone's results with this yeast seem to be. Either a brewer absolutely swears by it and says it's faster and more flocculant than Chico, or it stalls out and they swear off ever using it again. Almost reminds me of WY3724 - I can't help but wonder if there's a trick to getting this yeast to work well.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: cornershot on March 05, 2013, 03:35:02 AM
I use this yeast on my 1.048 American dry stout (All-American ingredients). I mash a 151F and it finishes at 1.011 and drops bright and clear in 48 hours. I use wyeast nutrient, oxygenate, and pitch and ferment at 68F. The fermentation is extremely vigorous and produces a huge cake. The flavor is very clean and allows the malt and hops to really shine. I've brewed this stout with all-irish, all-british, and various combinations of malt and yeast origin-16 batches of stout in 2 years- and I keep coming back to All-American. I love it and so does everyone who tries it. I've tried it with wlp001 but it just aint the same.
I've brewed other styles with it and all have been great! But I have had it drop out early before I had a temperature controlled fridge to ferment in. It doesn't seen to tolerate much temperature fluctuation. I also seem to get better results if I overpitch slightly- say 25%. It's a finicky yeast, but very much worth it,  IMO.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on March 05, 2013, 05:04:12 AM


I mashed at 151F and used yeast nutrient, oxygenated with pure o2, pitched and fermented at 68F using my Ranco controlled refrigerator. I have absolutely no temp fluctuation. There isn't anything you did that I don't do.

I used 2 tubes of yeast and built them with my stir plate into a half gallon starter for 10 gallons of beer. If there ever is a next time and I don't think there ever will, I'll double the yeast. 

It is more than a finicky yeast, it's weak and unpredictable, unstable and unreliable. Not worth chancing another under performance. 6
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: cornershot on March 05, 2013, 06:17:23 AM
I used a starter of 2 vials of wlp 060 San Diego Super Yeast, o2 injected, half gallon size starter, on a stir plate for 4 days. It is an 11 gal batch size at a controlled temperature of 66 degrees.

My OG was 1.074 and after 20 days it's now only 1.026.

 
According to the pitch rate calculator,  you needed 561 billion cells and even if your vials were 1 day old, you only pitched 444 billion cells. You under pitched, my friend, and you can't get away with that with 090!  How old were your vials?
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on March 05, 2013, 09:02:56 AM
Mr. Malty says 2 vials with a 3.75 qt starter would do the job.  I used 2 vials in a 2.2 qt starter.

You might be right about slightly under pitching initially and I did add a 3rd vial in a quart starter on day 14 to try to save it. I'm still more bitter than the beer.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: cornershot on March 05, 2013, 09:21:35 AM
I understand your frustration. That's a lot of underattenuated beer to drink! But I hate to see a great yeast get a bad reputation just because it's different and misunderstood.  :(  I understand if you don't want Diego on your team but he's a good kid so let's stop the name-calling!  :)  seriously,  i'd consider pitching brett. A farmhouse IPA is better than an underattenuated IPA!
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on March 05, 2013, 07:22:05 PM
 I see that it's my fault now, thanks for your advise. I did learn a valuable lesson.  I just want to blame anyone else but myself.  The beer is still very flavorful, just don't spill any on your hand because your fingers will stick together.

I've never used brett. What can I expect it to taste like? And how many points will it lower?  I'll go down to BevMo and buy one. Will it ever get out of my fermentor?
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: cornershot on March 06, 2013, 06:29:28 AM
At least you still have your sense of humor! 
Unless your fermentor is made of wood, your normal cleaning/ sanitation regimen will get it out. It's just "wild" yeast.
Whether or not you will like Brett is up to your own taste. I find some strains tart and pleasant and others downright offensive! But all are funky in their own way. I am by no means an expert. The best advice is to buy some commercial examples and do some "research".
As far as how many points can you expect to drop- I'm not sure anyone  can answer that.  I used the wrong strain in a 1.110 barleywine and it stopped at 1.050. Well, my lhbs gives me almost-expired vials by the dozen and I happened to have American farmhouse ale yeast, which contains a brett strain. I stepped up a starter and hoped for the best. It dropped 8 points in 3 days(ale yeast?) and then slowed to about a point a day to 1.025. Respectable for a big barleywine, and luckily, I like the strain. It has slowed considerably and I haven't checked in awhile. But it probably didn't drop much more since it was close to it's stated alcohol tolerance. I also have a gallon of og1.055, fg 1.014 porter that brett dropped to 1.005.
So do some research. Figure out if you like brett or if it's just time to fold 'em. And realize that if you do go for it, it may tie up your fermentor for awhile- maybe a couple months. And it might dry it out quite a bit. And don't fear the funk!
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: Roger Burns on March 06, 2013, 07:05:07 AM
Maybe the yeast was mishandled during delivery?  There's no real way to know, but could account for a massive die off, leaving you with too little, even with the starter.  This is unlikely to be the cause of your trouble since you added other yeast to finish off the beer and it never dropped points.  Have you calibrated your thermometers recently?  I had this happen.  Thought I was mashing at 151, but really was 155...  Made a big difference.

I had no idea that SD Super Yeast was finicky.  I have been using (abusing?) it for some time and it always seems to do the job quickly, and in several different beers.  In fact, it's my go-to yeast in the house now.  My basement sits at 65-68 year round.  Colder on the floor.

I have had great experience with this yeast from 4-10% beers.  It has been highly attenuative, and floccs out quickly. 

BTW, my brew buddy has a much colder basement and had trouble with 090 recently.  It was resolved by bringing it upstairs, rousting the yeast, and it finished in another day.



Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: cornershot on March 06, 2013, 11:43:07 AM


I had no idea that SD Super Yeast was finicky.  I have been using (abusing?) it for some time and it always seems to do the job quickly, and in several different beers.  In fact, it's my go-to yeast in the house now.  My basement sits at 65-68 year round.  Colder on the floor.

Oh it's finicky. Maybe it just likes you better! :)
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: jimrod on March 06, 2013, 12:09:53 PM
I just bought White and Zainasheff's book on Yeast. I'm going to figure this out.
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: cornershot on March 06, 2013, 12:18:26 PM
That's the spirit!
Title: Re: San Diego Super Yeast
Post by: cornershot on March 14, 2013, 07:06:33 PM
Here's an update on my latest experience with san diego: brewed an imperial stout on sunday. OG 1.090 (no pun intended) It appears to have reached a final gravity of 1.023 in 4 days.  Mashed at 154f, fermented at 69f. Oxygenated at pitch and at 12 hours after pitch. Dosed with yeast nutrient shortly after full krausen at 1.045.
Also brewed a small stout from 2nd runnings. OG 1.040, FG 1.011