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General Category => Yeast and Fermentation => Topic started by: kylekohlmorgen on February 20, 2013, 01:49:29 PM

Title: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on February 20, 2013, 01:49:29 PM
Anyone experimented with this strain yet?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on February 27, 2013, 05:35:53 PM
I just ordered a brick of this to try out. Will post results in the next few weeks.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: Joe Sr. on February 27, 2013, 05:56:17 PM
I'd be interested to hear how it performs.

I asked about it at the LHBS a couple weeks back, but they had no reports and didn't seem to be aware of the difficulties associated with WY3724 which made me suspect of any recommendation they might give for saisons.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: Siamese Moose on February 28, 2013, 02:17:11 AM
I'm curious to hear also. I teach classes at the LHBS, and they just asked me to use this to make a saison at my next class as a test of the flavor profile.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on March 01, 2013, 01:34:00 PM
This yeast is a BEAST so far... from 62F - 68F in 36 hours, still fermenting away at 70F (I pitched on Sunday night).

The recipe was an uber-simple saison:

1.060 OG. 70/30 Belgian Pils to flaked wheat as a base, a touch of aromatic, and 1 lb of honey (~15% of total fermentables). 40BUs Apollo at 60 min. No late hops.

Rehydrated one packet (per Danstar's instructions) and pitched. Shook to aerate. Placed in ferm. chamber with cooling set to 72F.

I normally don't just let the fermentation temp go (at least through the first 48 hours), but that's what a lot of brewers advice on saison yeast. I've heard of many homebrewers taking the same approach, whether they are taking cues from the pros or simply dont have temp control and brew saisons in the summer.

Either way - it should be a good test of this yeast's attenuation ability and flavor profile. Updates coming.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: thebigbaker on March 01, 2013, 01:51:02 PM
Thanks Kyle, really looking forward to your updates!
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: Joe Sr. on March 01, 2013, 02:39:09 PM
Yes.  Please let us know if you get the dreaded 1.03 stall.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on March 20, 2013, 06:43:30 PM
An update:

Altogether, this was a good first run. The yeast chewed through the beer in about a week, attenuating to 1.005.

The flavor profile is dominated by clove-like phenols, which may be due to the high wheat content. These flavors (and the high IBUs) overpower orange notes, along with a touch of strawberry and black pepper.

The phenols, bitterness, and flavor of the wheat are the major flaws with this beer, all of which I believe can be improved with recipe/process tweaks (100% barley malt, lower bittering charge, higher pitch temp).

I have one more packet and will try this yeast again, with the proposed changes. I think, for now, this yeast has proven itself as an excellent attenuator and a viable backup to more finicky strains.
 
 
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: redbeerman on March 20, 2013, 07:16:59 PM
I picked up a pouch of this yeast and will be brewing a more classic saison with it in the next month or so.  In order to define the ester characteristics for this yeast at typical saison ferment temperatures, I will use a rather simple recipe consisting of 95% pilsner malt,  5% wheat malt, 30 IBUs of Saaz.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on March 21, 2013, 12:34:03 PM
I picked up a pouch of this yeast and will be brewing a more classic saison with it in the next month or so.  In order to define the ester characteristics for this yeast at typical saison ferment temperatures, I will use a rather simple recipe consisting of 95% pilsner malt,  5% wheat malt, 30 IBUs of Saaz.

40BUs is pretty gnarly, but I think part of that is the high-alpha variety. Maybe I'll use Saaz, but you just have to use so damn much of the stuff!
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: redbeerman on March 21, 2013, 04:27:47 PM
I picked up a pouch of this yeast and will be brewing a more classic saison with it in the next month or so.  In order to define the ester characteristics for this yeast at typical saison ferment temperatures, I will use a rather simple recipe consisting of 95% pilsner malt,  5% wheat malt, 30 IBUs of Saaz.

40BUs is pretty gnarly, but I think part of that is the high-alpha variety. Maybe I'll use Saaz, but you just have to use so damn much of the stuff!

I usually have at least couple of pounds of noble hops of around, so that's just my preference.
Title: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on March 22, 2013, 11:34:56 AM
IMO if you are using low alpha hops for buttering you are wasting hops and wort. There's not going to be much flavor left after a 60 minute boil and the amount of wort absorption becomes significant.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on March 22, 2013, 12:11:43 PM
IMO if you are using low alpha hops for buttering you are wasting hops and wort. There's not going to be much flavor left after a 60 minute boil and the amount of wort absorption becomes significant.

I've always had this mindset as well, and I use Apollo/Warrior for bittering in every beer. I was surprised at the harshness in this beer at 40 ibu. If I reduce the Apollo by half, I think I'll be good to go.

In future saisons, I was thinking about using Saaz/Styr Goldings throughout, with good-sized additions at FWH, 30, 15, and after KO.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: redbeerman on March 22, 2013, 12:38:32 PM
IMO if you are using low alpha hops for buttering you are wasting hops and wort. There's not going to be much flavor left after a 60 minute boil and the amount of wort absorption becomes significant.

IMO American high alpha hops do not work well in European beers.  I have used Magnum in the past for bittering and I think it works really well, but I just don't make enough beer over the year to justify a pound of it.  My American styles will use Columbus and Chinook for bittering and that's fine for an American ale style.  Now that you're pro Keith, you will look at things differently than I do and that's OK.  Money's not a big driver for me as far as brewing is concerned, so I tend to stick more to tradition.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: anthony on March 22, 2013, 02:28:18 PM
In my very limited experience with this yeast, if you just let it ramp up and go, it will blow past the phenolic stage. The fruityness is much more pronounced at temperatures over 75F. You also seem to need to follow their pitching rate guidelines. I effectively turned off the jacket on our fermenter when I pitched this and it went up from 68, topping out at around 85 before hitting terminal gravity and falling back down on its own.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: yso191 on March 22, 2013, 03:11:18 PM
In my very limited experience with this yeast, if you just let it ramp up and go, it will blow past the phenolic stage. The fruityness is much more pronounced at temperatures over 75F. You also seem to need to follow their pitching rate guidelines. I effectively turned off the jacket on our fermenter when I pitched this and it went up from 68, topping out at around 85 before hitting terminal gravity and falling back down on its own.

I really enjoy Belgian beers, but have had only marginal success with the few I have brewed.  Primarily it has been a lack of the esters and phenols I wanted, and I assume it was because I fermented too cool.  The primary reason I am hesitant to ferment warmer is that I want to minimize production of fusel alcohols.  So my question is, is this something I should concern myself with, or does Belgian yeast not produce as much fusel alc. at higher temps like other ale yeasts?
Title: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on March 22, 2013, 03:27:23 PM
IMO if you are using low alpha hops for buttering you are wasting hops and wort. There's not going to be much flavor left after a 60 minute boil and the amount of wort absorption becomes significant.

IMO American high alpha hops do not work well in European beers.  I have used Magnum in the past for bittering and I think it works really well, but I just don't make enough beer over the year to justify a pound of it.  My American styles will use Columbus and Chinook for bittering and that's fine for an American ale style.  Now that you're pro Keith, you will look at things differently than I do and that's OK.  Money's not a big driver for me as far as brewing is concerned, so I tend to stick more to tradition.

I've actually never tried a high alpha American hop in European style beers so I can't comment but I've used magnum for a long, long time and for those styles I think it works best. Less hop and vegal matter in bk. but that's just me.


Errr ... sorry for the hijack boys and thanks for the feedback on the strain. Looking forward to using it soon.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: thebigbaker on March 22, 2013, 03:42:04 PM
Steve - I'm not sure of the science behind it, but I've done a couple of Belgian beers which I started ferment temps in the mid 60s and let it ramp up to 78-80 by the time "active" fermentation was over.  These beers came out great and had no presence of any fusels.  The yeast I have done this with is 3711 and 3787.

Kyle - thanks for the feedback on the strain, gonna grab some and try it out soon.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kramerog on March 22, 2013, 04:13:47 PM
The primary reason I am hesitant to ferment warmer is that I want to minimize production of fusel alcohols.  So my question is, is this something I should concern myself with, or does Belgian yeast not produce as much fusel alc. at higher temps like other ale yeasts?

"Brew Like A Monk,"  IIRC, says Belgian ale yeasts produce less fusels than ale yeasts.  It recounts that a Trappist monastery will allow fermentation temps hit the high 80s (possibly low 90s) although fermentation temps that high are not the norm.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: Joe Sr. on March 22, 2013, 04:35:47 PM
The primary reason I am hesitant to ferment warmer is that I want to minimize production of fusel alcohols.  So my question is, is this something I should concern myself with, or does Belgian yeast not produce as much fusel alc. at higher temps like other ale yeasts?

"Brew Like A Monk,"  IIRC, says Belgian ale yeasts produce less fusels than ale yeasts.  It recounts that a Trappist monastery will allow fermentation temps hit the high 80s (possibly low 90s) although fermentation temps that high are not the norm.

Correct.  But I believe they are pitching at normal ale temps (low 60s or so) and letting it ramp up from there.  I think you'd need to be fermenting the entire time in the high 70s or above to really get a fusel bomb.  I had 10 gallons of wheat hit 78 last summer before I got it cooled back down and the beer did not seem to suffer unduly from the high temp.  No big headaches.  No fusel flavors.  And I was quite paranoid about it.  Regardless of that experience, I would not recommend high temps.  For Belgians, I would pitch low, keep it low for 48 or so and then let it go where it wants to.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: denny on March 22, 2013, 05:02:26 PM
I've actually never tried a high alpha American hop in European style beers so I can't comment but I've used magnum for a long, long time and for those styles I think it works best. Less hop and vegal matter in bk. but that's just me.


Errr ... sorry for the hijack boys and thanks for the feedback on the strain. Looking forward to using it soon.

I've used Horizon many times in Belgian beers and it seems to work great.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: redbeerman on March 22, 2013, 05:10:53 PM
I've actually never tried a high alpha American hop in European style beers so I can't comment but I've used magnum for a long, long time and for those styles I think it works best. Less hop and vegal matter in bk. but that's just me.


Errr ... sorry for the hijack boys and thanks for the feedback on the strain. Looking forward to using it soon.

I've used Horizon many times in Belgian beers and it seems to work great.

I've never used Horizon.  It looks like it would be acceptable though.  I look for a clean bittering hop for my European beers, Magnum certainly fits the bill, Horizon looks like it would too, but I usually buy hops by the pound and a pound of high alpha hops for low to moderately bitter beers would last me a couple of years.  Using a couple of ounces of noble hopes for bittering is not that big a deal to me.  That being said, I can't wait to try this yeast, but my basement is rather cool still (will spring ever get here!), and my fermentation chamber has a German Pilsner in it presently.
Title: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on March 22, 2013, 05:15:50 PM
Thanks, never used horizon before but will keep that in mind.

As far as Belgian brewers practices and homebrewers I will remind y'all we ain't Belgian brewers. ;) what may work for them and their techniques are vastly different from ours. We can try to mimic their practices but only to a certain degree. After much experimentation I have found that a relatively cool to works best for my Belgians/saison a. I usually ferment in the low to mid 60s for most Belgian/saison strains. The only one I found that really does work better at a warmer temp is 565 but even that I am starting in the 60s and ramping slowly into the 70s and low 80s.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on March 22, 2013, 05:38:53 PM
Thanks, never used horizon before but will keep that in mind.

As far as Belgian brewers practices and homebrewers I will remind y'all we ain't Belgian brewers. ;)

Yup.

The problem I have with an uncontrolled, high temperature ramp is keeping the temperature up as fermentation slows. I can get the temp up to 80F, but even in an insulated fridge with a brew belt, a 5 gal bucket of wort isnt enough thermal mass to hold that temp until fermentation is complete.

This is the main reason why (I think) I've had fusel/phenol problems with Belgian beers in the past. Its a double-edged sword.

Pitch too low or control to 'normal' ferm temps = too low of a flavor contribution from the yeast

Pitch to high or dont control temp = temp drop at end of ferment, stressed yeast, fusels/phenols, poor attenuation.

Is this just a balancing act I haven't mastered yet?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: narcout on March 23, 2013, 04:47:17 PM
In future saisons, I was thinking about using Saaz/Styr Goldings throughout, with good-sized additions at FWH, 30, 15, and after KO.

I stole this Saison hop regimen from a Northern Brewer recipe, but I really like it (for a 5 gallon batch):

1 oz EKG - 60 min
.25 oz each of Saaz and Styrian Goldings - 10 min
.75 oz each of Saaz and Styrian Goldings - 2 min

Pitch too low or control to 'normal' ferm temps = too low of a flavor contribution from the yeast

Pitch to high or dont control temp = temp drop at end of ferment, stressed yeast, fusels/phenols, poor attenuation.

Is this just a balancing act I haven't mastered yet?

I brew mostly Belgians, and I've had the best success (at least with 3711, 3522 and 3787) pitching in the low 60s, fermenting in the upper 60s for 36 hours, then letting it rise up naturally into the low to mid 70s.

I'm always nervous about keeping it too cool for too long or letting it get too warm too soon.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: yso191 on March 23, 2013, 07:14:27 PM
I brew mostly Belgians, and I've had the best success (at least with 3711, 3522 and 3787) pitching in the low 60s, fermenting in the upper 60s for 36 hours, then letting it rise up naturally into the low to mid 70s.

I'm always nervous about keeping it too cool for too long or letting it get too warm too soon.

This statement and others I have read like it raise questions.  Does it assume 70* surroundings?  Is it the yeast or the surrounding air temp that lets it 'rise naturally' into the low or mid 70's? 

I ferment in a kegerator with a 2 stage controller (controls heating and cooling), and it sits in my unheated / uncooled garage.  During the winter it stays about 45*, during the Summer it stays about 80*.  So I cannot rely on ambient temperature to provide a happy medium.

I have only read insufficient explanations in that there are so many variables not dealt with, one could end up way off base.  So I guess my confusion lies in the statement "letting it rise naturally."  I don't see that happening in my situation, so how do I replicate it through temperature control?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: andyi on March 23, 2013, 07:27:46 PM

+1 to yso191 for yeasts and temps.

I just brewed with belle saison (nice to not mess  with a starter)
1.052-1002 in two weeks (1.008 week 1). 
Light grapefruit, citrus, dry, tart with med mouthfeel.
temps mid 66F - 74F
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: narcout on March 23, 2013, 08:16:09 PM
This statement and others I have read like it raise questions.  Does it assume 70* surroundings?  Is it the yeast or the surrounding air temp that lets it 'rise naturally' into the low or mid 70's?

I live in Southern California, and the ambient temp in my fermentation area (in which sits the fermentation chest freezer) varies between 65 and 75 degrees depending on the time of year.  In my case, it is a combination of the surrounding air temp and the heat generated by the yeast during fermentation that lets the temp rise into the 70s.   

I ferment in a kegerator with a 2 stage controller (controls heating and cooling), and it sits in my unheated / uncooled garage.  During the winter it stays about 45*, during the Summer it stays about 80*.  So I cannot rely on ambient temperature to provide a happy medium.

I have only read insufficient explanations in that there are so many variables not dealt with, one could end up way off base.  So I guess my confusion lies in the statement "letting it rise naturally."  I don't see that happening in my situation, so how do I replicate it through temperature control?

If you have a two stage controller and are fermenting in a kegerator, can't you hook up your controller to both the kegerator and a heating source to keep fermentation temperatures exactly where you want them?

Although I rarely have to use it, I do have one of these heaters that I can tape to the inside of my chest freezer if I need to bring the temperature up a bit.  It works pretty well.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/electric-fermentation-heater.html

Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: yso191 on March 23, 2013, 10:08:38 PM
 
If you have a two stage controller and are fermenting in a kegerator, can't you hook up your controller to both the kegerator and a heating source to keep fermentation temperatures exactly where you want them?

That is precisely the issue.  Yes I can, and yes I do.  Since I can't rely on atmospheric temperature I have to control it.  So my question is how?  What should that temperature pattern look like for a Belgian?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: redbeerman on March 24, 2013, 01:14:03 PM
I do ferment most of my Belgians in the low to mid 60s as well.  And 565 is the yeast that causes me the most grief.  Isus is, my basement is in the low to mid 50s this winter and that is casuing me grief.  My fermentation chamber, thankfully is programmable between -5C and 80C, which gives me all the temp control I need (it is glycol based).  Problem is, can't do a lager and an ale at the same time. ;)  I do agree with all that has been said here, and am happy to see folks have had good results with the Belle Saison strain at normal (for us homebrewers) fermentation temperatures.  If it can get down to 1.002, that's great!  I'm not a fan of WY3711, the mouthfeel is weird to me.  I prefer 565 for my Saisons even if it is a PITA to use.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: jklinck on March 26, 2013, 03:42:50 PM

+1 to yso191 for yeasts and temps.

I just brewed with belle saison (nice to not mess  with a starter)
1.052-1002 in two weeks (1.008 week 1). 
Light grapefruit, citrus, dry, tart with med mouthfeel.
temps mid 66F - 74F

That looks very similar to Wyeast 3711 with the high attenuation at lower temperatures and med mouthfeel.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: jklinck on March 26, 2013, 03:44:05 PM
Thanks, never used horizon before but will keep that in mind.

As far as Belgian brewers practices and homebrewers I will remind y'all we ain't Belgian brewers. ;)

Yup.

The problem I have with an uncontrolled, high temperature ramp is keeping the temperature up as fermentation slows. I can get the temp up to 80F, but even in an insulated fridge with a brew belt, a 5 gal bucket of wort isnt enough thermal mass to hold that temp until fermentation is complete.

This is the main reason why (I think) I've had fusel/phenol problems with Belgian beers in the past. Its a double-edged sword.

Pitch too low or control to 'normal' ferm temps = too low of a flavor contribution from the yeast

Pitch to high or dont control temp = temp drop at end of ferment, stressed yeast, fusels/phenols, poor attenuation.

Is this just a balancing act I haven't mastered yet?

Pitch cool around 65F and raise the temp by 3F each day. I find using a desk lamp instead of a brew belt works better for heating a freezer, just put up some aluminum foil up to block the light if you are using a carboy.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on March 27, 2013, 04:51:18 PM

+1 to yso191 for yeasts and temps.

I just brewed with belle saison (nice to not mess  with a starter)
1.052-1002 in two weeks (1.008 week 1). 
Light grapefruit, citrus, dry, tart with med mouthfeel.
temps mid 66F - 74F

That looks very similar to Wyeast 3711 with the high attenuation at lower temperatures and med mouthfeel.

Definitely behaves like 3711 from an attenuation / fermentation point of view.

The flavor profile is fairly different. I get a lot more black pepper from 3711. The citrus and fruit notes are similar, but 3711 seem to be more pronounced (lemon zest, orange, strawberry). Again, my experience may be due to fermentation temps.

I didn't think the mouthfeel was all that out of the ordinary, but I did use a lot of wheat.

Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: drjones on April 16, 2013, 05:43:57 PM
Transferred my first Belle Saison trial to secondary yesterday.  OG 1.056 (pilz, wheat, aromatic malts, 1 lb light jaggery, mashed at 148).  Made a 1500 ml starter 24 hours ahead.  Based on my refractometer (adjusted with BeerSmith2) it was down to 1.000 after 8 days (I should note that I did not even add any yeast nutrient to the starter).  I'm sure the refractometer estimate is not perfect, but this yeast clearly ate through the batch pretty ferociously.  I ferment my saisons in a small room with a space heater.  This one was kept at about 76-78 degrees after the second day.  In the past I've used Wyeast French Saison 3711 which has always worked well (no stalls at similar ca. 80 degree temps).  This one seems to have behaved similarly.  Just had a small sample, but did not take specific notes.  Had a "classic" saison aroma, though, and was already a very pleasant beer.  I will certainly use this one again.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: dzlater on April 16, 2013, 09:20:35 PM
I brewed a batch using this yeast two days ago.
I don't have much experiance with saisons, so I can't really compare it to anything else.
Pitched the rehydrated yeast @ 68ºf, saw signs of fermentation after a couple hours.
After 24 hours I raised it up to 71º.
I plan on bumping it up another few degrees this evening.
I had trouble with my mash temps.
Started at 147º
After 45 minutes it was at 144º
I added some water and brought it up to 150º for another 45 minutes.
I am calculating 103% efficiancy.  :o
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: hospter81 on April 20, 2013, 02:14:46 PM
I read the yeast specifications and it says that you have to inoculate at a rate of 1 gr per liter...so you probably use 2 packets per 5 gallon aprox in order to achieve that degree of attenuation. I know Danstar always suggests that for all their strains. But again, if i want to have a very dry saison like it should be.. do i need to inoculate at that rate?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on April 22, 2013, 12:13:59 PM
If you're at a reasonable gravity (< 1.070), one rehydrated packet will do.

I had great results with just one.

Just remember to give it as much O2 as you can. It may not be true with this strain, but both WL and Wyeast suggest saison yeasts need more O2 than normal yeast for a healthy growth phase (12-15 ppm as opposed to 8-15 ppm).

I'm actually using this strain again for my next saison (brewday 5/5).
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: dzlater on April 23, 2013, 08:47:09 PM

+1 to yso191 for yeasts and temps.

I just brewed with belle saison (nice to not mess  with a starter)
1.052-1002 in two weeks (1.008 week 1). 
Light grapefruit, citrus, dry, tart with med mouthfeel.
temps mid 66F - 74F

Mine went from 1.048 to 1.002 in 10 days.
Temps got to around 78º.
I agree with the "Light grapefruit, citrus, dry, tart with med mouthfeel."

Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: nateo on May 22, 2013, 03:10:19 AM
Belle Saison is close enough to 3711 for me that I doubt I'll use 3711 ever again. Belle Saison is a beast. My latest super saison finished at 0.996 with plenty of mouthfeel.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on May 22, 2013, 11:46:10 AM
Belle Saison is close enough to 3711 for me that I doubt I'll use 3711 ever again. Belle Saison is a beast. My latest super saison finished at 0.996 with plenty of mouthfeel.

They seem (at least) very similar, if not the same strain.
Title: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on May 22, 2013, 11:48:17 AM
Belle Saison is close enough to 3711 for me that I doubt I'll use 3711 ever again. Belle Saison is a beast. My latest super saison finished at 0.996 with plenty of mouthfeel.

Glad to hear that. I have a brick at the brewery that I have been planning to use but been skeered.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on May 22, 2013, 11:50:54 AM
Belle Saison is close enough to 3711 for me that I doubt I'll use 3711 ever again. Belle Saison is a beast. My latest super saison finished at 0.996 with plenty of mouthfeel.

Glad to hear that. I have a brick at the brewery that I have been planning to use but been skeered.

Do you use a lot of dry yeast in the brewery? How do you rehydrate - just warm water in the bottom of the fermentor before cooling in?
Title: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on May 22, 2013, 01:20:52 PM
Only rehydrate on beers over 1.065. I've pretty much switched my IPA and IIPA over to US-05 because I am using WY1007 on my other styles and I don't care for it as much in IPA/IIPA.

I've been using the WY saison strain but last winter when I went to make my Saison Noel I was told by WY that it was 4 weeks out. Guess people don't use that strain much in winter, so I'm happy to have a dry yeast option.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: nateo on May 22, 2013, 02:47:15 PM
Only rehydrate on beers over 1.065. I've pretty much switched my IPA and IIPA over to US-05 because I am using WY1007 on my other styles and I don't care for it as much in IPA/IIPA.

Have you ever used K-97? It's really nice, along the same lines as 1007.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on May 22, 2013, 03:20:56 PM
Fermentation just finished on my first saison with the Belle Saison yeast.  Went from 1.052 to 1.002 in about 3 weeks.  I mashed at 149 F for 90 minutes.  I pitched a single pack at about 65 F, no rehydration, aerated well by very vigorous whipping/stirring for 5 minutes.  Fermentation began within 24 hours.  I left cool at 65 F for one day, then raised up to 72-73 F for the entire remainder of ferment.  Resulting beer tastes of pilsner malt, low Belgian lemon-like esters, low pepper, low to moderate alcohol warmth that I hope will mellow somewhat after a month or two of age.  Very pleasant beer, but I believe it needs a little more something so I am going to spice it, perhaps with lemongrass or even dill or basil or something odd like that maybe.  Perhaps even some olde gruit herbs.
Title: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on May 22, 2013, 03:23:30 PM
Only rehydrate on beers over 1.065. I've pretty much switched my IPA and IIPA over to US-05 because I am using WY1007 on my other styles and I don't care for it as much in IPA/IIPA.

Have you ever used K-97? It's really nice, along the same lines as 1007.

No. I have wanted to, but haven't. I'm working on putting back together my old 1 bbl system as a pilot system. I'm going to have the liberty to try lots of new stuff soon, hopefully. (Well, new to me).
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: thebigbaker on May 22, 2013, 04:18:37 PM
...I believe it needs a little more something so I am going to spice it, perhaps with lemongrass or even dill or basil or something odd like that maybe.  Perhaps even some olde gruit herbs.

At a recent "Homebrewer's Night" at my LHBS, I tried a cucumber basil ale that was actually really good.  Not sure that I would drink more than one, but it was a lot better than I expected.  I don't think I'm brave enough to brew up a basil beer, but as I was drinking it all I could think of is that it would go real nice with some good spicy Thai food.

As for the Bell Saison Yeast, I keep meaning to pick some up and with the results from this thread, I'll make sure to look for it next time I'm at my LHBS.  Thanks to everyone positing their results with this yeast!
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on May 22, 2013, 07:41:48 PM
...I believe it needs a little more something so I am going to spice it, perhaps with lemongrass or even dill or basil or something odd like that maybe.  Perhaps even some olde gruit herbs.

At a recent "Homebrewer's Night" at my LHBS, I tried a cucumber basil ale that was actually really good.  Not sure that I would drink more than one, but it was a lot better than I expected.  I don't think I'm brave enough to brew up a basil beer, but as I was drinking it all I could think of is that it would go real nice with some good spicy Thai food.

As for the Bell Saison Yeast, I keep meaning to pick some up and with the results from this thread, I'll make sure to look for it next time I'm at my LHBS.  Thanks to everyone positing their results with this yeast!

I think basil is lovely in beer. Bison Honey Basil comes to mind. but I also did a no hops basil beer that, once it settled down a bit (I used too much basil) was really nice as well. Dill, well anything's possible
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: skyler on May 22, 2013, 07:55:58 PM
Dill, well anything's possible

we can pickle that
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on May 23, 2013, 12:58:52 PM
I think basil is lovely in beer. Bison Honey Basil comes to mind. but I also did a no hops basil beer that, once it settled down a bit (I used too much basil) was really nice as well. Dill, well anything's possible

I want to try Rosemary in my IPA. Just keep wimping out on brewday.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on May 23, 2013, 01:58:38 PM
I think basil is lovely in beer. Bison Honey Basil comes to mind. but I also did a no hops basil beer that, once it settled down a bit (I used too much basil) was really nice as well. Dill, well anything's possible

I want to try Rosemary in my IPA. Just keep wimping out on brewday.

That's another one to be very cautious with. would probably be tasty though in the right amount. sort of resiny and piney.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on May 28, 2013, 02:34:17 AM
I bottled mine up tonight.  I decided not to use dill, but I did make a tincture with basil and mugwort, and I also threw in a little oregano, what the heck.  And I dare say.... it tastes FANTASTIC.  I'd do it again.  I used the equivalent of 4 grams dried basil, 3 grams mugwort, and 3 grams oregano for 5 gallons.  The mugwort is a little overpowering.  If I did it again, I might use half as much mugwort, and maybe 1.5 times as much basil and oregano.  However, it tastes great the way it is.  It's that subtle spice where you know there's spice in there but you can't quite put your finger on it... that sort of thing.  But certainly not spiced so much that you can't taste the very beery saison underneath.  Dang near perfection.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on May 28, 2013, 02:38:38 PM
nice. sounds yummy. My last saison-ish creation had a really nice herbal character from, I think the yeast as there was a touch of brett in there. but that slight herbal note can be really nice in that style.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: brewmichigan on June 05, 2013, 01:05:38 PM
I made on on Saturday and it's sitting in the kitchen right now. I didn't do anything crazy, just pale malt, munich and wheat to 1.056. We'll see how the saison profile ends up being around 67 the whole time.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: anthony on June 06, 2013, 02:08:05 PM
This yeast gave me a good flavor profile but I won't be using it again in the brewery. For me, the flocculation was absolutely terrible. Dosed a couple of times with our normal fining regimen, added additional secondary clarifiers, had it stored at 32F, and no change. Then, as the yeast dropped out, the flavor changed considerably into something much less complex. I would imagine this yeast would work better on a bottle conditioned project.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on June 06, 2013, 02:35:44 PM
This yeast gave me a good flavor profile but I won't be using it again in the brewery. For me, the flocculation was absolutely terrible. Dosed a couple of times with our normal fining regimen, added additional secondary clarifiers, had it stored at 32F, and no change. Then, as the yeast dropped out, the flavor changed considerably into something much less complex. I would imagine this yeast would work better on a bottle conditioned project.

IME the liquid strains are also powdery. That's perfectly ok though - I find irony in a "farmhouse ale" with brilliant clarity.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: anthony on June 06, 2013, 07:09:28 PM
Well I wasn't looking for brilliant, but turbulent wasn't what I had in mind either. In the past, I've had better luck with Wyeast 3726 with regards to flocculation.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: brewmichigan on June 11, 2013, 05:36:31 PM
Well it seemed to take a little longer than I expected but it finished down to 1.008. Had a krausen the entire time but was never extremely vigorous. It did finish in a week but based on what everyone else was saying I was expecting more like 3-4 days on a 1.056 beer.

So far the samples I have pulled have been fruity and tart dominate. I get some banana, little clove, tropical, citrus notes. I used a small amount of amarillo hops in this beer so some of the citrus could be from that. I have also zested 2 grapefruits and put the skins in the beer and am letting them sit until Friday then I'll keg it. So far seems like a winner.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: thebigbaker on July 04, 2013, 11:09:02 PM
First batch w/ Belle Saison dry yeast and it turned out fantastic!  I can't really compare to 3711, which I've always used for my Saisons, since I changed a couple of variables for this brew.  Usually I let my Saisons rise to the mid 70's during fermentation, however I kept this one in the low 60's.  Mine started at 1.058 and ended up 1.008, which is a little higher than what I usually get w/ 3711, but that may be due to the lower fermentation temps.  Very happy with this yeast and will use this yeast for all my Saisons, except w/ my Saison de Noel which I will use 3711 and a large starter.  Also, I'll probably keep fermenting in the low 60's.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on July 05, 2013, 12:41:19 AM
First batch w/ Belle Saison dry yeast and it turned out fantastic!  I can't really compare to 3711, which I've always used for my Saisons, since I changed a couple of variables for this brew.  Usually I let my Saisons rise to the mid 70's during fermentation, however I kept this one in the low 60's.  Mine started at 1.058 and ended up 1.008, which is a little higher than what I usually get w/ 3711, but that may be due to the lower fermentation temps.  Very happy with this yeast and will use this yeast for all my Saisons, except w/ my Saison de Noel which I will use 3711 and a large starter.  Also, I'll probably keep fermenting in the low 60's.
Cool to hear it worked out well. I've got a packet from NHC and a saison brew scheduled for this weekend.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on July 05, 2013, 02:39:30 PM
I actually split my batch and only spiced half of it with the basil and mugwort.  Well yesterday I finally got around to tasting the first bottle of non-spiced saison with this yeast.  Man oh man, turned out so nice.  Big pilsner malt aroma and flavor, along with "that Belgian character" caused by distinctive Belgian esters, also a good bit of peppery spice, a distinctive tartness and slight lemony type citrus flavor, and the aftertaste is of honey, which, I know from experience, definitely comes from the pilsner malt.  Again, I repeat, this version was NOT spiced in any way, so these characters are predominantly from the Belle Saison yeast.  Very nice saison, very good example of the style.  It is indeed quite a bit hazy, not like a hefeweizen but enough to notice, although some of the haze also seems to dissipate as the beer warms.  The most surprising thing to me was that tartness -- it's as if I'd added a little citric acid or something like that, which I did NOT.  And I fermented in all new glass equipment so I know there ain't a Lacto infection in there.  I haven't put this beer into competition yet but I will -- as a Recognized BJCP judge, I am guessing this beer would score right around a 40, or okay let's say I'm a little biased but at least 38.  I've not tasted a saison that nails the style a lot better than this.  FG was 1.002 but it doesn't taste that low, tastes like 1.008 or something like that -- there's still plenty of body to prevent it from tasting thin or watery at all.  Bottom line is: Do not fear this yeast!
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on July 08, 2013, 05:04:27 PM
Well I made the wort yesterday. going to pitch 5 gallons with a rehydrated packet of the belle saison that was terribly mistreated and spent a week in unrefrigerated heck in my suitcase. The other 5 gallons will get my house yeast blend. 
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on July 08, 2013, 06:33:30 PM
^Stress test. Sweet.

I'm rebrewing my initial experiment - this time with about 1/2 the IBUs and cooling in around 72F.

If its not super-solventy, I'll be bottling it to test some nifty new brett strains in secondary!
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: chezteth on July 14, 2013, 10:08:44 PM
I just transferred a saison to secondary ( for adding some toasted pecan chips ) in which I used this yeast.  The OG was 1.044 and FG was 1.000.  I have never had a beer ferment that low.  The next lowest FG was a berliner weisse at 1.002.  I wasn't expecting that low of a FG but it tastes good and has a med-low body.  So much for a low alcohol session beer. ABV is 5.8% as calculated by Beersmith.  I didn't have any troubles with it fermenting out but I did bring it to a warm room toward the end of fermentation to be sure it would finish.  The last saison I brewed stopped at 1.030.  I didn't realize it until it was too late.  I had already added the priming sugar and started bottling.  Oh well, live & learn.

Cheers,
Brandon
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on July 15, 2013, 01:37:57 PM
My homebrew club had a Saison Clone War competition last Thursday, where we faced off after all having brewed the same basic recipe but we were allowed to tweak it slightly in one small way.  One guy added raisins, another added a little black pepper, etc.  But most of us used the Danstar Belle Saison yeast.  My saison using Belle plus toasted oats scored the silver medal out of 9 entries.  Not too shabby.  And the gold medalist's secret ingredient?  An extra pound of cane sugar.  Doesn't get any simpler than that.  Anyway... just proving once again that this yeast is capable of great things.  And, simplicity is often not such a terrible thing.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: chezteth on July 15, 2013, 04:19:21 PM
My homebrew club had a Saison Clone War competition last Thursday, where we faced off after all having brewed the same basic recipe but we were allowed to tweak it slightly in one small way.  One guy added raisins, another added a little black pepper, etc.  But most of us used the Danstar Belle Saison yeast.  My saison using Belle plus toasted oats scored the silver medal out of 9 entries.  Not too shabby.  And the gold medalist's secret ingredient?  An extra pound of cane sugar.  Doesn't get any simpler than that.  Anyway... just proving once again that this yeast is capable of great things.  And, simplicity is often not such a terrible thing.

That's great! This is why homebrewing is such a fun hobby. You can take some basic ingredients and make minor changes to get a different beer. I'm sure I will use this yeast many more times to see what it / I can do with it.
Cheers,
Brandon
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: euge on July 16, 2013, 11:18:45 PM
I just brewed a table-strength saison with it. Fermentation was at a steady 68F so we'll see how that affects things. Regardless of constant temp without ramping fermentation has proceeded swiftly.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 16, 2013, 11:46:35 PM
I just brewed a table-strength saison with it. Fermentation was at a steady 68F so we'll see how that affects things. Regardless of constant temp without ramping fermentation has proceeded swiftly.
Look forward to seeing how low it goes for you without the ramp up.  I hear it's a pretty voracious eater.  I've done a couple saisons in a row to experiment with strain/temp combos, but haven't used the Belle yet.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: 1vertical on July 20, 2013, 11:42:57 PM
I have got a brew made with Belle in secondary rotation waiting for a spot in the fridge.
I liked the way it fermented and attenuation was good.  more info forthcoming soon
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on July 21, 2013, 07:12:02 PM
I finally got around to brewing my saison and pitched two bricks of this yeast just yesterday. Thanks for all the feedback here. Y'all gave me courage to try it without a test batch. Otoh if it turns out for cheap I'm banning you all! Lol, just kidding. Denny would break my spleen if I did that.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: 1vertical on July 21, 2013, 09:13:21 PM
I finally got around to brewing my saison and pitched two bricks of this yeast just yesterday. Thanks for all the feedback here. Y'all gave me courage to try it without a test batch. Otoh if it turns out for cheap I'm banning you all! Lol, just kidding. Denny would break my spleen if I did that.

Keith I read on this strain and they said the favorable UPPER temperature range has not been located.
I let mine ramp well into the 80s.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on July 21, 2013, 09:15:41 PM
I finally got around to brewing my saison and pitched two bricks of this yeast just yesterday. Thanks for all the feedback here. Y'all gave me courage to try it without a test batch. Otoh if it turns out for cheap I'm banning you all! Lol, just kidding. Denny would break my spleen if I did that.

Keith I read on this strain and they said the favorable UPPER temperature range has not been located.
I let mine ramp well into the 80s.

Cool. I'll ramp mine up some tomorrow. Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: 1vertical on July 21, 2013, 09:21:30 PM
Quote from some anomoulous retailer....
"Lallemand Belle Saison Ale Yeast - For the first time in brewing history, the complexity of Saison beer meets the simplicity and reliability of brewing with dry yeast. Belle Saison is the classic Belgian Saison strain, giving brewers the ability to create Saison and "Farmhouse" style ales that offer a host of complex characteristics associated with these intriguing styles. Belle Saison is meant to be fermented at warm temperatures (around 90ºF/32ºC) toward developing a unique combination of esters and aromatic characteristics that typify the best of these styles. As with Lallemand's other dry yeast varieties, Belle Saison offers unequaled fermentation performance, allowing you to create award-winning beers time and time again."
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 21, 2013, 09:50:54 PM
Quote from some anomoulous retailer....
"Lallemand Belle Saison Ale Yeast - For the first time in brewing history, the complexity of Saison beer meets the simplicity and reliability of brewing with dry yeast. Belle Saison is the classic Belgian Saison strain, giving brewers the ability to create Saison and "Farmhouse" style ales that offer a host of complex characteristics associated with these intriguing styles. Belle Saison is meant to be fermented at warm temperatures (around 90ºF/32ºC) toward developing a unique combination of esters and aromatic characteristics that typify the best of these styles. As with Lallemand's other dry yeast varieties, Belle Saison offers unequaled fermentation performance, allowing you to create award-winning beers time and time again."
Wow, didn't know that one was recommended to ferment so warm. I just fermented a saison with WY3724 @ 90, as Wyeast recommends now to prevent the stall with that strain.  It's a really weird feeling to pitch that warm after 2 decades of pitching ~ 64.  Even for Belgians that's warm.  But the hydrometer sample was really good, so those strains evidently operate on their own set of rules.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on July 22, 2013, 12:57:11 AM
Quote from some anomoulous retailer....
"Lallemand Belle Saison Ale Yeast - For the first time in brewing history, the complexity of Saison beer meets the simplicity and reliability of brewing with dry yeast. Belle Saison is the classic Belgian Saison strain, giving brewers the ability to create Saison and "Farmhouse" style ales that offer a host of complex characteristics associated with these intriguing styles. Belle Saison is meant to be fermented at warm temperatures (around 90ºF/32ºC) toward developing a unique combination of esters and aromatic characteristics that typify the best of these styles. As with Lallemand's other dry yeast varieties, Belle Saison offers unequaled fermentation performance, allowing you to create award-winning beers time and time again."
Wow, didn't know that one was recommended to ferment so warm. I just fermented a saison with WY3724 @ 90, as Wyeast recommends now to prevent the stall with that strain.  It's a really weird feeling to pitch that warm after 2 decades of pitching ~ 64.  Even for Belgians that's warm.  But the hydrometer sample was really good, so those strains evidently operate on their own set of rules.

 Some speculation that those strains originated from a red wine yeast which ferment really warm. But I get great results from my Saison strains pitching in the 60s, ramping into the 70s. Had great results with wlp565 way into the 90s though.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on July 22, 2013, 01:22:44 AM
Yep, I had heard that about the possible connection to red wine strains.  Would make sense. I know that red wine ferments very warm, very vigorously(my brother-in-law is a helluva home winemaker).  Sounds familiar.  I always used 3711 ~ 68F, then ramped up.  But I'm kegging this 90F saison tomorrow, and can't wait to compare and contrast to the prior ones.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on July 22, 2013, 01:47:40 AM
I just kegged by batch made with this. It started at 1.038 but I added 1 lb of honey after a couple days so all told it took this beer from 1.045 to 1.000 in about 2 weeks. I started at 65ish per my usuall and ramped up to 74ish  after a couple days. It stayed there the rest of the time and it had no problem finishing.

The flavour is hard to pin point right now because It is not fully carbed but it has a distinct lemony tartness and is otherwise pretty clean so far. I withold judgement.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: euge on July 24, 2013, 01:32:33 PM
Bottled mine on monday keeping some reserved in a couple of liter PET bottles. This I cold-crashed and transferred off the yeast to different bottles and force carbed this morning with my carbonator caps.

I've been up since 0430 so a beer @0800 is like one with lunch- no?

Very smooth, with some light phenolic and ester notes. Lemony. But Sorachi Ace are the only hops I used so not sure how much they are contributing to the citrus character. Color is pale orange. Could have a tad more carbonation. Needs to condition at least a couple weeks in a warm room. This beer is not ready.

The initial impression is a big thumbs up for the Belle Saison.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: Jimmy K on July 24, 2013, 01:40:20 PM
I think basil is lovely in beer. Bison Honey Basil comes to mind. but I also did a no hops basil beer that, once it settled down a bit (I used too much basil) was really nice as well. Dill, well anything's possible

I want to try Rosemary in my IPA. Just keep wimping out on brewday.

That's another one to be very cautious with. would probably be tasty though in the right amount. sort of resiny and piney.
I just tried a rosemary beer and honestly, I thought the rosemary came across very vegetal in a way that reminded me of gourmet soap - not good. And the rosemary was not over the top either.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on July 24, 2013, 02:35:50 PM
Impressed by this yeast. Pitched @ 64 on Saturday and ramped it up to 68 on Monday and ramped up temp to 78 today but its already close to being done. Nice and spicy and some nice citrus notes. It was a 1.058 OG beer. Didn't rehydrate, either.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on July 24, 2013, 02:43:24 PM
+1 on the citrus notes. I don't have my notes in front of me but I didn't use any particularly citrusy hops in my batch, except some free centennials (Thanks hop union) from NHC*. I get big lemon. It was particularly apparent at the beginning of the keg when I was getting more actual yeast in the beer.

* I was almost certain I was going to open my suit case in California and find a nice little yellow note from the TSA informing me that the brick of dried green plant material had been confiscated. But it was fine. My clothes smelled lovely as well.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: 1vertical on July 24, 2013, 02:52:08 PM
Impressed by this yeast. Pitched @ 64 on Saturday and ramped it up to 68 on Monday and ramped up temp to 78 today but its already close to being done. Nice and spicy and some nice citrus notes. It was a 1.058 OG beer. Didn't rehydrate, either.

So maybe we won't get Banned??  :P
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on July 24, 2013, 02:56:49 PM
Impressed by this yeast. Pitched @ 64 on Saturday and ramped it up to 68 on Monday and ramped up temp to 78 today but its already close to being done. Nice and spicy and some nice citrus notes. It was a 1.058 OG beer. Didn't rehydrate, either.

So maybe we won't get Banned??  :P

Not today! ;)
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: euge on July 24, 2013, 04:52:33 PM
Not today!
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: yso191 on August 02, 2013, 10:55:27 PM
So I am going to brew a Saison using this yeast tomorrow - mainly because my LHBS dropped the ball and didn't order Wyeast 3724 like they said they would.  But they had this on hand, and after reading this thread, it seems a good route.  My recipe:

4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 42.3 %
2 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 21.2 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 21.2 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.3 %
8.0 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 5 5.3 %
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 18.4 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 7 -
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 mins) Other 8 -
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 4.1 IBUs
2.00 g Seeds of Paradise (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 10 -
0.50 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 11 -
0.50 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 12 -
0.50 oz Tangerine Peel (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 13 -
8.00 oz Honey [Boil for 5 min](1.0 SRM) Sugar 14 4.8 %
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 15 0.0 IBUs

I intend to mash low, 152*.  This should, according to BeerSmith result in:
An OG of 1.047; 22.5 IBU; 5.9 SRM; ABV 5.2.

I intend to pitch at 65*, then after 36 hours bump the temperature up 1* every 12 hours until it sits at 80* a week later.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on August 03, 2013, 01:17:49 AM
Personally I would mash even lower at 148-149 F.  And I would back off quite a bit on the Munich.  But it's your beer and it will still taste great without those little suggestions.  Looks great.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on August 03, 2013, 03:02:51 AM
I mashed mine at 148 for 90 minutes and it went down to 1.004 from 1.058 with this strain. I brewed two, one pitched at 64 and the bulk fermented at 68 and another fermented at 80. I preferred the cooler fermented one - way more complex yeast flavors. The warmer fermented one if fine but not as complex.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on August 03, 2013, 03:04:44 AM
So I am going to brew a Saison using this yeast tomorrow - mainly because my LHBS dropped the ball and didn't order Wyeast 3724 like they said they would.  But they had this on hand, and after reading this thread, it seems a good route.  My recipe:

4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 42.3 %
2 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 21.2 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 21.2 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.3 %
8.0 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 5 5.3 %
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 18.4 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 7 -
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 mins) Other 8 -
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 4.1 IBUs
2.00 g Seeds of Paradise (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 10 -
0.50 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 11 -
0.50 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 12 -
0.50 oz Tangerine Peel (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 13 -
8.00 oz Honey [Boil for 5 min](1.0 SRM) Sugar 14 4.8 %
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 15 0.0 IBUs

I intend to mash low, 152*.  This should, according to BeerSmith result in:
An OG of 1.047; 22.5 IBU; 5.9 SRM; ABV 5.2.

I intend to pitch at 65*, then after 36 hours bump the temperature up 1* every 12 hours until it sits at 80* a week later.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are, too much going on. The key to saison is the yeast character. All that you have going on there is going to overpower what be yeast bring to the table. My .02.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on August 03, 2013, 03:08:40 AM
So I am going to brew a Saison using this yeast tomorrow - mainly because my LHBS dropped the ball and didn't order Wyeast 3724 like they said they would.  But they had this on hand, and after reading this thread, it seems a good route.  My recipe:

4 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 42.3 %
2 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 21.2 %
2 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 21.2 %
8.0 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.3 %
8.0 oz Wheat, Flaked (1.6 SRM) Grain 5 5.3 %
1.00 oz Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 6 18.4 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 7 -
0.50 tsp Yeast Nutrient (Boil 15.0 mins) Other 8 -
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 9 4.1 IBUs
2.00 g Seeds of Paradise (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 10 -
0.50 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 11 -
0.50 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 12 -
0.50 oz Tangerine Peel (Boil 5.0 mins) Spice 13 -
8.00 oz Honey [Boil for 5 min](1.0 SRM) Sugar 14 4.8 %
0.50 oz Nelson Sauvin [12.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 15 0.0 IBUs

I intend to mash low, 152*.  This should, according to BeerSmith result in:
An OG of 1.047; 22.5 IBU; 5.9 SRM; ABV 5.2.

I intend to pitch at 65*, then after 36 hours bump the temperature up 1* every 12 hours until it sits at 80* a week later.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are, too much going on. The key to saison is the yeast character. All that you have going on there is going to overpower what be yeast bring to the table. My .02.

+1 I would drop the Vienna and honey malts and all the spices. I would actually up the munich to maybe 3 lbs and up the honey (or other simple sugar) by .5 lbs.

other than that it looks good. and obviously it's your beer so do what you want. I really like the nelson with the Belgian yeasts by the way the white wine character really works with fruity esters and spicy phenolics.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: thebigbaker on August 03, 2013, 03:10:28 AM
I too fermented mine in the low-mid 60's, basically by accident.  I mean to raise the temp, but forgot about it so I decided to keep it at 63-64 for the rest of its duration.  I really liked how it turned out and as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I'll keep this yeast in these temp ranges for future brews.

I didn't mash mine as low, I was at 153 for my mash and my gravity finished at 1.008.  Initially I thought it was due to the lower fermentation temps, but next time I'll lower my mash to 148-149 and see what that does.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on August 03, 2013, 02:08:31 PM
I mashed mine at 148 for 90 minutes and it went down to 1.004 from 1.058 with this strain. I brewed two, one pitched at 64 and the bulk fermented at 68 and another fermented at 80. I preferred the cooler fermented one - way more complex yeast flavors. The warmer fermented one if fine but not as complex.

Keith, that is some great experimentation right there.  Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: 1vertical on August 03, 2013, 03:13:46 PM
I mashed mine at 148 for 90 minutes and it went down to 1.004 from 1.058 with this strain. I brewed two, one pitched at 64 and the bulk fermented at 68 and another fermented at 80. I preferred the cooler fermented one - way more complex yeast flavors. The warmer fermented one if fine but not as complex.

Good to know this comparason of the temperature effects.  Thanks When I spoke of the upper
temp range for this critter, I had nothing to relate to now, we do.....good on ya.  Did you make
a huge commercial batch with the 80 degree ferment?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: jeffy on August 03, 2013, 04:58:22 PM
That is good and timely to know, since I plan to make a late-hopped IPA tomorrow and pitch half the 10 gallon batch with this yeast and half with S-04.  I'll put both carboys in the same fridge at 60 to 65 and see what happens.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: yso191 on August 03, 2013, 06:05:10 PM
Thank you for the input on my recipe.  The part of brewing that I am least competent in and which seems very hard to get a handle on, is when complexity turns into a muddle.

I got the basic recipe off of the AHA Recipe site, it is the Saison Du Mont.  I changed the grain bill to drop the OG and add an orange color (hence the Vienna).  Then it was still too light SRM-wise so I added the Honey Malt for color and frankly I like sweet - it turns on my taste buds.

I kept the spices unchanged.

I'm not stating my thinking in order to say I'm right.  I actually hoping to find out where my thinking went off the tracks. 

And I will now mash at 149*, and keep the fermentation temp lower.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on August 03, 2013, 08:44:53 PM
Thank you for the input on my recipe.  The part of brewing that I am least competent in and which seems very hard to get a handle on, is when complexity turns into a muddle.

I got the basic recipe off of the AHA Recipe site, it is the Saison Du Mont.  I changed the grain bill to drop the OG and add an orange color (hence the Vienna).  Then it was still too light SRM-wise so I added the Honey Malt for color and frankly I like sweet - it turns on my taste buds.

I kept the spices unchanged.

I'm not stating my thinking in order to say I'm right.  I actually hoping to find out where my thinking went off the tracks. 

And I will now mash at 149*, and keep the fermentation temp lower.

Complexity:

Imagine with me. Three or four beautiful people of a sex that complements your tastes singing softly to you as you nestle into a warm soft feather bed. the heavy but comforting duvet surrounding you even as the cool evening air wafts in from the open window, a slight chill of autumn around the edges. The soft melodic voices weave harmonies around you as you drift thankfully off to sleep.

Muddled:
Ten punk rock musicians each with a guitar that has been tuned to a different key wailing away while you are wrapped tightly in space blankets in a 95* room.

Even though punk music, warm rooms, futons, and space blankets are all really nice to have around do you want them all at once?

Whereas soft melodic vocal music I can take or leave. A cool room and a warm duvet are pretty nice but if the bed is too soft it can ruin it. however all together as an experience they merge into something you might well want to do.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: yso191 on August 03, 2013, 08:55:00 PM
Hah!  Thanks Morticai, an interesting illustration.  However, I understand the definition of complex and muddled, I just don't know in recipe design what makes the tipping point.  I am really looking forward to the Grain book that will finish the Yeast, Hops, Water series - at least I hope that corrects the gaps in my understanding about this issue.  In the mean time I ask questions here.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: bboy9000 on August 03, 2013, 09:02:49 PM
...I just don't know in recipe design what makes the tipping point.

I'm still working on that too.  I found the Nov./Dec. 2012 Zymurgy article "Brewing on the Ones," by Drew Beechum helpful.  Here's his Brewing on the Ones Presentation at NHC 2012:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sSKHzmhrzY
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on August 03, 2013, 09:11:19 PM
Hah!  Thanks Morticai, an interesting illustration.  However, I understand the definition of complex and muddled, I just don't know in recipe design what makes the tipping point.  I am really looking forward to the Grain book that will finish the Yeast, Hops, Water series - at least I hope that corrects the gaps in my understanding about this issue.  In the mean time I ask questions here.

I think complexity comes when you combine subtle characteristics that, by themselves would not make much impact (soft melodic vocal music) and perhaps 1 bold structured characteristic that provides the platform for the rest. Often times people pick big bold flavours that they really like and decide that if they put those together it will be complex. That's when things get muddled.

Take farmhouse style brews. they tend to be very complex in flavour and the recipe itself can look very complex, 1 or even 2 or 3 raw adjuncts, some simple sugars, lots of hops early and late. Add it a very complex and lively yeast character and there is a lot going on.

But raw adjuncts tend to be pretty subtle in the final product, perhaps some mild phenolic spiceyness from rye, creaminess from oats, or tartness from wheat but never to the 'Whoa, Wheat!' level. I do about 24%-25%

I think with farmhouse style the backbone, the one bold, structural component is the yeast. It is spicey all by itself. if you are using a pure strain you get some spice, and fruit, and maybe a touch of tartness (the belle will give you some citric type tartness for sure). If you use a yeast blend like many farmhouse brewers the yeast complexity gets even greater with some brett in there lending farmyard funk.

I like light (10L) munich for adjusting color because it gives a subtle toasty bready sweet note but nothing over the top like a dark crystal. It supports the other players by giving the malt base some weight. i don't actually have a preference between pils and pale for the remainder of my grist although if you like a little perceived sweetness pils can provide that. I go with about 24-25% munich to about 36-37% other base.

the rest of the fermentables should be from simple sugars. I insist still on using something more interesting than table sugar even though I am not convinced it makes any significant difference. But when aiming for complexity sometimes things that are so subtle you aren't even sure you notice them make a big difference. (like when working with nutmeg always add a little cinnamon, you may not notice the cinnamon but it will help make the nutmeg pop) So I like honey, or raw sugar, rapidura, maple syrup (can emulate some wood character if you  are rich enough to use a bunch), coconut sugar.

I have not found a huge need for spices yet. but I haven't experimented with them much either so I could well change my mind about that. They do tend to be easy to over do.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: yso191 on August 03, 2013, 09:23:25 PM
Wow, thanks Morticai, that really helps!  I think I'll print your response for future reference.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: klickitat jim on August 04, 2013, 01:09:14 AM
Brewing on the Ones! Great lesson for intermediate brewers trying to get past "brown" flavored beer. I'm convinced that usually less is more
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: HoosierBrew on August 04, 2013, 01:26:39 AM
+1 to less is more.  Several of my beers use no more than base malt plus 1 or 2 other malts. Too many specialty malts in alot of styles give you the muddy beer effect.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on August 04, 2013, 01:36:17 AM
I mashed mine at 148 for 90 minutes and it went down to 1.004 from 1.058 with this strain. I brewed two, one pitched at 64 and the bulk fermented at 68 and another fermented at 80. I preferred the cooler fermented one - way more complex yeast flavors. The warmer fermented one if fine but not as complex.

Good to know this comparason of the temperature effects.  Thanks When I spoke of the upper
temp range for this critter, I had nothing to relate to now, we do.....good on ya.  Did you make
a huge commercial batch with the 80 degree ferment?

No, this is a good point. I fermented the one I pitched on the cool side in a 12 bbl (372 gallon) batch. The one I fermented warmer was a 12 gallon batch. Both were good, just liked the former one better. But could have something to do with volumes.

I plan on doing a good bit of experiment on 12 gallon batches with this strain in the next few months and I will post what I find here! Looking forward to what you all find as well.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: yso191 on August 07, 2013, 06:55:13 PM
I want to input accurate info into BeerSmith.   Can someone tell me what the attenuation range is for this yeast?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on August 07, 2013, 07:12:54 PM
I don't have an exact number, but apparent attenuation is really high with this yeast.  It's like 95%.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on August 07, 2013, 07:42:24 PM
I don't have an exact number, but apparent attenuation is really high with this yeast.  It's like 95%.

or 100%. My batch finished at 1.000, maybe a hair under so 101%?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: cheshirecat on August 07, 2013, 07:45:57 PM
I don't have an exact number, but apparent attenuation is really high with this yeast.  It's like 95%.

+1, Mine just finished fermenting, gravity went from 1.062 to 1.003 in just under a week. Pitched about 64 and it topped out at 72 degrees. From the taste of the wort I think I still like WLP565 & WLP566 better, but that could be just what I am used to and expect. It is nice to see dry yeast users will have broader choices.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: 1vertical on August 11, 2013, 11:46:34 PM
Some taste notes from my batch that I tapped today.
Great foamy head, fine bubbles, hint of lemon and bread on the aroma. Smooth on the palate
with good mouthfeel, peppery sensations without the pepper flavor, spicy. Dry to a nice place.
I fermented very warm and with Keith's notes, next time I will reduce the temps to
see if I get more phenolics.  I was a 3711 man, but now, maybe this is my new goto saison strain.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: snowtiger87 on August 13, 2013, 10:00:22 PM
Mine was a mosnter! It took 5 gallons down from 1.080 to 1.001 in 2 weeks fermented from mid-60's to 72 at the highest. I think it will be good eventually, but right now it is just too damn hot from the alcohol.  :o
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: mabrungard on August 14, 2013, 12:30:17 AM
I will be using this yeast for a Saison this week and I'm concerned with fusel production.  I agree that an elevated fermentation temp is required to produce the esters and phenols that are characteristic of the yeast, but I've had far too many beers in judging that display fusel alcohols...much to the dismay of my head the next morning.  Many of those beers were not Belgians and the yeasts probably aren't suited to high temp.  But can this yeast be relied upon to avoid fusel production if fermented at 78 to 80 F? 

I'm going to have to heat my fermentation chamber to achieve that elevated temp, so its no problem to moderate the temp a bit. 
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on August 14, 2013, 12:50:54 AM
You'll get good flavor and less fusels lower than that.  I say shoot for 73 F, or maybe like 75 F maximum.  You don't need to go hot.  I think some folks have even said they like the results better at lower temps than warmer.  I haven't done an experiment yet to know for sure but I loved mine at 73 F.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on August 14, 2013, 03:13:56 PM
I will be using this yeast for a Saison this week and I'm concerned with fusel production.  I agree that an elevated fermentation temp is required to produce the esters and phenols that are characteristic of the yeast, but I've had far too many beers in judging that display fusel alcohols...much to the dismay of my head the next morning.  Many of those beers were not Belgians and the yeasts probably aren't suited to high temp.  But can this yeast be relied upon to avoid fusel production if fermented at 78 to 80 F? 

I'm going to have to heat my fermentation chamber to achieve that elevated temp, so its no problem to moderate the temp a bit.

I got good complex flavor results pitching at ~64 and letting it rise no higher than ~74. lots of lemon. some spice and funk, no fusels that I could detect (and I get wicked headaches from fusels)
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: orangehero on September 29, 2013, 01:09:43 AM
Are you pitching one or two 11 g packets for 5 gallons of wort?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: 1vertical on September 29, 2013, 07:55:52 AM
I pitched 2 packs.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: jeffy on September 29, 2013, 12:15:45 PM
I used this yeast on a second pitch into half a 10 gallon batch of a late-hopped IPA, fermented in the mid 60's, then dry hopped with Sorachi Ace.
I am loving it.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: majorvices on September 29, 2013, 03:03:39 PM
I will be using this yeast for a Saison this week and I'm concerned with fusel production.  I agree that an elevated fermentation temp is required to produce the esters and phenols that are characteristic of the yeast, but I've had far too many beers in judging that display fusel alcohols...much to the dismay of my head the next morning.  Many of those beers were not Belgians and the yeasts probably aren't suited to high temp.  But can this yeast be relied upon to avoid fusel production if fermented at 78 to 80 F? 

I'm going to have to heat my fermentation chamber to achieve that elevated temp, so its no problem to moderate the temp a bit.

I got good complex flavor results pitching at ~64 and letting it rise no higher than ~74. lots of lemon. some spice and funk, no fusels that I could detect (and I get wicked headaches from fusels)

Almost my exact method and almost my exact interpretation on flavor.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on September 29, 2013, 03:16:15 PM
Are you pitching one or two 11 g packets for 5 gallons of wort?

I pitched a single packet. I can't imagine needing more than that unless the gravity is quite high. My packet had also travelled from Philly to Vermont, then back to california over the course of a week with no refrigeration.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: mabrungard on September 29, 2013, 09:02:15 PM
At 1.069, I wish I had pitched 2 packets.  I don't think a single was enough.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on September 30, 2013, 02:51:57 PM
At 1.069, I wish I had pitched 2 packets.  I don't think a single was enough.

Did it stall on you? it ripped through 1.048 in 2 weeks (< 1.002)
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: yso191 on September 30, 2013, 03:29:21 PM
At 1.069, I wish I had pitched 2 packets.  I don't think a single was enough.

Did it stall on you? it ripped through 1.048 in 2 weeks (< 1.002)

Ditto here.  One packet took my 1.059 pumpkin beer down to .999 in less than 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: mabrungard on September 30, 2013, 05:17:15 PM
2 weeks?  That is not ripping.  My typical ale ferments are done in less than a week. 

But with respect to the results above, my 1.069 batch did finish out in 2 weeks.  Maybe that is typical.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: morticaixavier on September 30, 2013, 06:26:44 PM
2 weeks?  That is not ripping.  My typical ale ferments are done in less than a week. 

But with respect to the results above, my 1.069 batch did finish out in 2 weeks.  Maybe that is typical.

I see! that makes sense. It did take 2 weeks. After 1 week if was around 1.008 the second week (could have been less than a whole week) took it the rest of the way. I rarely package before week 3 or 4 so I just let it ride for a couple.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: 1vertical on September 30, 2013, 08:32:49 PM
I get no lemon, I get spicy peppery more so than any fruit.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: redbeerman on October 22, 2013, 07:03:47 PM
I get no lemon, I get spicy peppery more so than any fruit.

Just finished my first batch with this yeast.  1.058 to 1.004 in 12 days.  I got the peppery as well. no fruit to speak of.  Will keg this weekend and start carbonation.  Will taste next week or so.  My initial impression is that this yeast ferments like a monster, but may not give many aromatics or flavors to the beer.  I started fermentation at 65°F and ramped up to 75°F.  May be a good base yeast if you are thinking about adding citrus zest and/or spices.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on October 22, 2013, 07:12:32 PM
I thought about adding orange peel/spices...

I also thought about using 1/2 pack of this yeast with a bit of 3724 slurry
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: mabrungard on October 23, 2013, 12:16:20 AM
I concur with Red's assessment.  I used it in a 1.069 Saison that fermented to 0.998.  The initial week was spent at 70F and then I ultimately brought it to 80F to finish.  There are peppery phenols, but this yeast doesn't seem to produce the earthy character that you get with a Dupont yeast.  Some of my fellow clubmates agreed that this yeast would probably make a very nice Belgian Pale Ale. 
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast - Brett C secondary experience?
Post by: a witty man on December 13, 2013, 01:44:45 AM
Odelay. I really like using a little Brett C on the back end of my saisons. Anyone have experience with a Belle Saison fermented beer with Brett C in secondary? Would there even be anything left for the Brett to work on?
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast
Post by: dmtaylor on December 13, 2013, 04:23:06 AM
Good question.  Nothing really left for the Brett to chew on but you could add extra sugar with it.
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast - Brett C secondary experience?
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on December 13, 2013, 09:23:14 PM
Odelay. I really like using a little Brett C on the back end of my saisons. Anyone have experience with a Belle Saison fermented beer with Brett C in secondary? Would there even be anything left for the Brett to work on?

I used Belle as the primary yeast in a brett at bottling experiment.

Brett does not need 'food' in the form of residual sugar/dextrin to provide flavor. No need to add sugar.

Since this beer finishes SO dry already, and brett will drive the finishing gravity even lower, keep bittering low and strive for a healthy fermentation. Bitterness, astringency and fermentation flaws (unwanted phenols, higher alcohols) will be punctuated by the bone-dry mouthfeel. I mis-weighed my bittering hops, and 30 IBU tasted like 70.

Also, don't sit on the beer for too long. (IMO) when Brett completely takes over, the complexity of the beer decreases and the harshness increases. Dose in the bottle (if bottling) or the keg and taste every week. When you get the desired level of brett flavor, refrigerate and enjoy!
Title: Re: Belle Saison Dry Yeast - Brett C secondary experience?
Post by: morticaixavier on December 13, 2013, 09:40:40 PM
Odelay. I really like using a little Brett C on the back end of my saisons. Anyone have experience with a Belle Saison fermented beer with Brett C in secondary? Would there even be anything left for the Brett to work on?

I used Belle as the primary yeast in a brett at bottling experiment.

Brett does not need 'food' in the form of residual sugar/dextrin to provide flavor. No need to add sugar.

Since this beer finishes SO dry already, and brett will drive the finishing gravity even lower, keep bittering low and strive for a healthy fermentation. Bitterness, astringency and fermentation flaws (unwanted phenols, higher alcohols) will be punctuated by the bone-dry mouthfeel. I mis-weighed my bittering hops, and 30 IBU tasted like 70.

Also, don't sit on the beer for too long. (IMO) when Brett completely takes over, the complexity of the beer decreases and the harshness increases. Dose in the bottle (if bottling) or the keg and taste every week. When you get the desired level of brett flavor, refrigerate and enjoy!

+1 on less is more with brett. I've been really enjoying the slight hint I get when pitching a blend in primary but drinking the beer in a 'normal' timeframe. I find that with the American Farmhouse blend, if treat it like a 'normal' ferment, i.e. let it go a couple weeks until the gravity becomes more or less stable and keg. I say more or less because I know the brett would take it lower given time but I find, as Kyle says, the brett gets harsh after a while.