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General Category => Ingredients => Topic started by: travjohn92 on March 28, 2013, 07:10:16 PM

Title: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: travjohn92 on March 28, 2013, 07:10:16 PM
I am going to make a big an imperial ipa and I am going to use Simcoe (12.8 AA), Citra (14.1AA), and Amarillo (9.4AA) but I am unsure how to best utilize the bitterness and aroma to maximize each.  I have been brewing so many single hop beers to try to be able to recognize what each does that I am afraid using a combo of each I may lose something.  Here is the recipe and please feel free to give suggestions on how YOU would utilize these three hops in a single beer.

LBS   OZ
14   2   American Two-row Pale
1      Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (Boil)
   10   American Dextrin (Cara-Pils)
   10   American Crystal 40L

                        oz                             AA
boil   60 min   ½    Citra ~ pellet   14.1
boil   60 min   ½    Simcoe ~ pellet   12.8
boil   45 min   ½    Citra ~ pellet   14.1
boil   30 min   ½    Simcoe ~ pellet   12.8
boil   15 min   ½    Amarillo ~ pellet   9.4
boil   3 min           ½    Amarillo ~ pellet   9.4
boil   3 min           ½    Citra ~ pellet   14.1
boil   3 min           ½    Simcoe ~ pellet   12.8

Using (2) 11.5 GRAMS OF SAFALE 05

EST OG: 1.078
EST FG: 1.017

IBU: 78.5

there will be some dry hopping using the some of the same three hops.  Suggestions welcome on that aspect too.

Always appreciated.
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: fmader on March 28, 2013, 08:57:07 PM
Grain bill looks good to me. I'd kick your 45 minute Citra addition out to 15 minutes to achieve more flavor from the hop. If you're worried about losing IBU's from this move, up the 30 minute Simcoe to get them back. Move your 3 minute additions out to 0 minutes and up them to an ounce a piece. I would use at least an ounce of each to dry hop with...maybe even two.
 
That's just what I would do.... but it's your recipe, so I think you should do what you think is best!
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: jklinck on March 29, 2013, 01:56:16 AM
I am going to make a big an imperial ipa and I am going to use Simcoe (12.8 AA), Citra (14.1AA), and Amarillo (9.4AA) but I am unsure how to best utilize the bitterness and aroma to maximize each.  I have been brewing so many single hop beers to try to be able to recognize what each does that I am afraid using a combo of each I may lose something.  Here is the recipe and please feel free to give suggestions on how YOU would utilize these three hops in a single beer.

LBS   OZ
14   2   American Two-row Pale
1      Corn Sugar (Dextrose) (Boil)
   10   American Dextrin (Cara-Pils)
   10   American Crystal 40L

                        oz                             AA
boil   60 min   ½    Citra ~ pellet   14.1
boil   60 min   ½    Simcoe ~ pellet   12.8
boil   45 min   ½    Citra ~ pellet   14.1
boil   30 min   ½    Simcoe ~ pellet   12.8
boil   15 min   ½    Amarillo ~ pellet   9.4
boil   3 min           ½    Amarillo ~ pellet   9.4
boil   3 min           ½    Citra ~ pellet   14.1
boil   3 min           ½    Simcoe ~ pellet   12.8

Using (2) 11.5 GRAMS OF SAFALE 05

EST OG: 1.078
EST FG: 1.017

IBU: 78.5

there will be some dry hopping using the some of the same three hops.  Suggestions welcome on that aspect too.

Always appreciated.

Using IPA hops at 30, 45 and 60 is a complete waste. Move your 30/45/60 additions to your 3 min additions (1.5oz Citra and 1.5oz Simcoe at 3 min). Then get some cheap and readily available Magnum for your bittering.

On the dry hopping go light on the Citra because it really overpowers other hops. I would say 1oz Citra, 2oz Amarillo and 2oz Simcoe.
Title: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: majorvices on March 29, 2013, 05:13:29 AM
I know the original Pliny clone had cara pils in it but doesn't it contradict the point to have cara pils and sugar in the same recipe?
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: AmandaK on March 29, 2013, 05:15:33 AM
On the dry hopping go light on the Citra because it really overpowers other hops. I would say 1oz Citra, 2oz Amarillo and 2oz Simcoe.

Second this. The 2012 Citra is quite loud in combination with other hops - I did a even addition of Simcoe, Centennial, Cascade, Mosaic and Citra and all I could taste was CITRA!!! Not a bad thing, but something to be aware of.
Title: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: majorvices on March 29, 2013, 05:17:30 AM
Agree with the comment about 45 and 30 min. Being a waste, and you need flame out additions. Get your bus up to where you want them to be wioth a 60 minute addition and maybe a 20 minute addition and then everything else goes in under 10 min. With. The majority at flame out. Adding any hops during the boil is gong to add bitterness and lose aroma.
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: davidgzach on March 29, 2013, 05:29:08 AM
+1 to removing the 45 and 30 additions.  I would bitter with the Simcoe if those are your choices, Amarillo at 15 and big time flame out as said.

Dave
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on March 29, 2013, 05:42:23 AM
On the dry hopping go light on the Citra because it really overpowers other hops. I would say 1oz Citra, 2oz Amarillo and 2oz Simcoe.

Second this. The 2012 Citra is quite loud in combination with other hops - I did a even addition of Simcoe, Centennial, Cascade, Mosaic and Citra and all I could taste was CITRA!!! Not a bad thing, but something to be aware of.

OR just go heavy on the Amarillo instead  ;)
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: erockrph on March 29, 2013, 06:20:21 AM
I agree with pretty much everything above. For an IIPA I'd go with about 40-50 IBUs of Columbus or Chinook at 60 minutes (you could use Magnum or Hop Extract here if you don't want as much bite). I'd use an ounce each of the Simcoe, Amarillo and Citra as FWH, do an ounce of Simcoe at 15min, Citra at 10 min, Amarillo at 5 min and an ounce of each at flameout followed by at least an hour hop stand. At 10 days add an ounce of each for dry hops. Add another ounce of Simcoe and Amarillo 3 days later.
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: blatz on March 29, 2013, 06:43:12 AM
On the dry hopping go light on the Citra because it really overpowers other hops. I would say 1oz Citra, 2oz Amarillo and 2oz Simcoe.

Second this. The 2012 Citra is quite loud in combination with other hops - I did a even addition of Simcoe, Centennial, Cascade, Mosaic and Citra and all I could taste was CITRA!!! Not a bad thing, but something to be aware of.

+2! amen to this!
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 29, 2013, 06:58:55 AM
I have to be the old cantankerous guy here, as a couple of my favorite IPAs that I brew have additions at 45, 30 or both. Clones of Pliny, Union Jack, and Headhunter. The Headhunter from Steele's IPA book is now one I am doing often (of course I had to sub Mosaic for Simcoe).
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: travjohn92 on March 29, 2013, 07:07:56 AM


Using IPA hops at 30, 45 and 60 is a complete waste. Move your 30/45/60 additions to your 3 min additions (1.5oz Citra and 1.5oz Simcoe at 3 min). Then get some cheap and readily available Magnum for your bittering.

On the dry hopping go light on the Citra because it really overpowers other hops. I would say 1oz Citra, 2oz Amarillo and 2oz Simcoe.

I am trying to use hops that I have on hand and don't have any Magnum.  Here is what I have on hand in addition to the Simcoe, Citra, and Amarillo.
Apollo (18.5AA)
EXP 5256 (17.0AA)
EXP 6300 (14.6AA)
Polaris (21.0AA)
El Dorado (15.3AA)
EXP 1210 (6.4AA)

Suggestions and thoughts on the best bittering hop
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: blatz on March 29, 2013, 07:10:33 AM
i don't mind the timing at all, but the amounts late kettle are pretty low. 

Double jack uses over 4# of hops per beer barrel, totaling of all additions.  That works out to over 2oz per gallon.

assuming you dryhop with at least 2oz, you're at a measly 1.2 oz per gallon - I do APAs at that level, its puny for IIPA.  You need to hit it harder with late hops (between 15-0) where you won't get much IBU contribution but will get a lot of hop flavor and some aroma, and then dryhop at least 3oz. 
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: blatz on March 29, 2013, 07:11:11 AM
I like Apollo a lot for bittering.
Title: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: majorvices on March 29, 2013, 07:33:24 AM
I have to be the old cantankerous guy here, as a couple of my favorite IPAs that I brew have additions at 45, 30 or both. Clones of Pliny, Union Jack, and Headhunter. The Headhunter from Steele's IPA book is now one I am doing often (of course I had to sub Mosaic for Simcoe).

I don't think it hurts anything but I don't think it helps much either. If you are brewing an IIPA you need to have loads of flame out and dry hops. Nuf said.
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: brewmichigan on March 29, 2013, 12:21:57 PM
I have to be the old cantankerous guy here, as a couple of my favorite IPAs that I brew have additions at 45, 30 or both. Clones of Pliny, Union Jack, and Headhunter. The Headhunter from Steele's IPA book is now one I am doing often (of course I had to sub Mosaic for Simcoe).

I don't think it hurts anything but I don't think it helps much either. If you are brewing an IIPA you need to have loads of flame out and dry hops. Nuf said.

Even with the 45 and 30 minute additions, Pliny does have loads at flameout and dryhop. I have not done a side by side comparison of IPAs done with 30 and 45 additions to those who haven't with everything else being equal, but they keep doing it and it must be for a reason... Right?
Title: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: majorvices on March 30, 2013, 08:00:59 AM
I have no idea what they are doing. But when I talked to vinny several years ago he acted like the recipe posted online and made popular by the b3 clone wasn't what they were using "now". Heck, my understanding is that RR is using hop extracts for Pliny for bittering additions.
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 30, 2013, 09:03:29 AM
I have no idea what they are doing. But when I talked to vinny several years ago he acted like the recipe posted online and made popular by the b3 clone wasn't what they were using "now". Heck, my understanding is that RR is using hop extracts for Pliny for bittering additions.
Hop extract is used to get more wort out of the kettle. The recipe he handed out at the Oakland NHC was for homebrewers, and uses 45 and 30 additions. He said on the BN a couple years back that he uses Amarillo in Pliny now.





Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: hopfenundmalz on March 30, 2013, 09:20:33 AM
Some brewers have said that glycosides are important to hop aroma, and since the hop compounds are bound to a sugar molecule, they survive the boil. Somewhere I read that you get good glycoside use at 30 minutes.

http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2010/11/30/glycosides/
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: AmandaK on April 08, 2013, 11:46:09 AM
I have no idea what they are doing. But when I talked to vinny several years ago he acted like the recipe posted online and made popular by the b3 clone wasn't what they were using "now". Heck, my understanding is that RR is using hop extracts for Pliny for bittering additions.
Hop extract is used to get more wort out of the kettle. The recipe he handed out at the Oakland NHC was for homebrewers, and uses 45 and 30 additions. He said on the BN a couple years back that he uses Amarillo in Pliny now.

So does anyone know where the "correct" recipe is? Or does he just add Amarillo to different points in the process?
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 08, 2013, 04:47:42 PM
I have no idea what they are doing. But when I talked to vinny several years ago he acted like the recipe posted online and made popular by the b3 clone wasn't what they were using "now". Heck, my understanding is that RR is using hop extracts for Pliny for bittering additions.
Hop extract is used to get more wort out of the kettle. The recipe he handed out at the Oakland NHC was for homebrewers, and uses 45 and 30 additions. He said on the BN a couple years back that he uses Amarillo in Pliny now.

So does anyone know where the "correct" recipe is? Or does he just add Amarillo to different points in the process?
Amarillo is late in the boil, maybe dry hopped. Search on Homebrewtalk, I think someone has a good idea of what to do on that site.
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: Three on April 08, 2013, 05:10:52 PM
I have no idea what they are doing. But when I talked to vinny several years ago he acted like the recipe posted online and made popular by the b3 clone wasn't what they were using "now". Heck, my understanding is that RR is using hop extracts for Pliny for bittering additions.
Hop extract is used to get more wort out of the kettle. The recipe he handed out at the Oakland NHC was for homebrewers, and uses 45 and 30 additions. He said on the BN a couple years back that he uses Amarillo in Pliny now.

So does anyone know where the "correct" recipe is? Or does he just add Amarillo to different points in the process?

Not sure how current this recipe is.......  Not really what started this thread either.......  But hey,  "Lets brew something"!!!


Pliny the Elder clone
(Russian River Brewing Co.)
(5 gallons/19 L, all-grain)
OG = 1.074  FG = 1.014
IBU = 100+  SRM = 8  ABV = 8–8.5%

Ingredients
12.2 lbs. (5.5 kg) 2-row malt
0.28 lbs. (0.13 kg) crystal malt (45 °L)
0.86 lbs. (0.39 kg) CaraPils malt
1.0 lb. (0.45 kg) dextrose(corn sugar)
19.5 AAU Chinook whole hops (mash hops)
    (1.5 oz./43 g of 13% alpha acids)
42.9 AAU Warrior hops (90 mins)
    (2.75 oz./78 g of 15.6% alpha acids)
6.1 AAU Chinook hops (90 mins)
    (0.5 oz./14 g of 12.2% alpha acids)
12 AAU Simcoe hops (45 mins)
    (1.0 oz./28 g of 12% alpha acids)
14.3 AAU Columbus hops (30 mins)
    (1.0 oz./28 g of 14.3% alpha acids)
20.5 AAU Centennial hops (0 min)
    (2.25 oz./64 g of 9.1% alpha acids)
12 AAU Simcoe hops (0 min)
    (1.0 oz./28 g of 12% alpha acids)
3.25 oz. Columbus hop (dry hop)
1.75 oz. Centennial hops (dry hop)
1.75 oz. Simcoe hops (dry hop)
1 tsp. Irish moss (15 mins)White Labs WLP001 (California Ale) yeast
0.75 cups corn sugar (for priming)
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: hopfenundmalz on April 08, 2013, 06:48:33 PM
I have no idea what they are doing. But when I talked to vinny several years ago he acted like the recipe posted online and made popular by the b3 clone wasn't what they were using "now". Heck, my understanding is that RR is using hop extracts for Pliny for bittering additions.
Hop extract is used to get more wort out of the kettle. The recipe he handed out at the Oakland NHC was for homebrewers, and uses 45 and 30 additions. He said on the BN a couple years back that he uses Amarillo in Pliny now.

So does anyone know where the "correct" recipe is? Or does he just add Amarillo to different points in the process?

Not sure how current this recipe is.......  Not really what started this thread either.......  But hey,  "Lets brew something"!!!


Pliny the Elder clone
(Russian River Brewing Co.)
(5 gallons/19 L, all-grain)
OG = 1.074  FG = 1.014
IBU = 100+  SRM = 8  ABV = 8–8.5%

Ingredients
12.2 lbs. (5.5 kg) 2-row malt
0.28 lbs. (0.13 kg) crystal malt (45 °L)
0.86 lbs. (0.39 kg) CaraPils malt
1.0 lb. (0.45 kg) dextrose(corn sugar)
19.5 AAU Chinook whole hops (mash hops)
    (1.5 oz./43 g of 13% alpha acids)
42.9 AAU Warrior hops (90 mins)
    (2.75 oz./78 g of 15.6% alpha acids)
6.1 AAU Chinook hops (90 mins)
    (0.5 oz./14 g of 12.2% alpha acids)
12 AAU Simcoe hops (45 mins)
    (1.0 oz./28 g of 12% alpha acids)
14.3 AAU Columbus hops (30 mins)
    (1.0 oz./28 g of 14.3% alpha acids)
20.5 AAU Centennial hops (0 min)
    (2.25 oz./64 g of 9.1% alpha acids)
12 AAU Simcoe hops (0 min)
    (1.0 oz./28 g of 12% alpha acids)
3.25 oz. Columbus hop (dry hop)
1.75 oz. Centennial hops (dry hop)
1.75 oz. Simcoe hops (dry hop)
1 tsp. Irish moss (15 mins)White Labs WLP001 (California Ale) yeast
0.75 cups corn sugar (for priming)

That is the first recipe given out, old.

More recent is this. You can also see the recipes in Zymurgy if you are an AHA member.
http://beerdujour.com/recipes/1pliny%20the%20elder%20clone%20pdf.pdf

Vinnie says Amarillo is used now. This might be close, don't know.
http://www.bertusbrewery.com/2012/12/ipa-clone-series-pliny-elder.html

From Russian River. http://russianriverbrewing.com/brews/pliny-the-elder/
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: Three on April 09, 2013, 07:44:19 AM
Very nice.  Thanks for the links. http://www.bertusbrewery.com also has a Stone Ruination IPA 10 year Anniversary clone that looks awesome as well.....  http://bertusbrewery.com/2012/08/ipa-clone-series-stone-runination-10th.html

Great info.....




Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: blatz on April 09, 2013, 08:30:27 AM
Very nice.  Thanks for the links. http://www.bertusbrewery.com also has a Stone Ruination IPA 10 year Anniversary clone that looks awesome as well.....  http://bertusbrewery.com/2012/08/ipa-clone-series-stone-runination-10th.html

Great info.....

yeah - I've been following Scott's blog for some time now - he seems to have a great handle on cloning IPA recipes.  I've got a slightly modified version of his Blind Pig recipe in the fermentor and so far so good.

the FW UJ and Double Jack recipes look solid.
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: AmandaK on April 09, 2013, 09:53:59 AM
Very nice.  Thanks for the links. http://www.bertusbrewery.com also has a Stone Ruination IPA 10 year Anniversary clone that looks awesome as well.....  http://bertusbrewery.com/2012/08/ipa-clone-series-stone-runination-10th.html

Great info.....

yeah - I've been following Scott's blog for some time now - he seems to have a great handle on cloning IPA recipes.  I've got a slightly modified version of his Blind Pig recipe in the fermentor and so far so good.

the FW UJ and Double Jack recipes look solid.

I've spent a lot of my morning on Scott's blog. What good information! Thank you guys for sharing it.  8)
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: blatz on April 09, 2013, 10:04:51 AM
not to take this thread too far off track, but I did scott's dryhop experiment with bud light and am presenting it at my next brew club meeting - its quite shaming that I have 10 quarts of bud light in my beer fridge right now, but at least I have labels with the dryhops on them!
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: Three on April 09, 2013, 07:36:44 PM
not to take this thread too far off track, but I did scott's dryhop experiment with bud light and am presenting it at my next brew club meeting - its quite shaming that I have 10 quarts of bud light in my beer fridge right now, but at least I have labels with the dryhops on them!

Ditto on the thread but I just have to comment......  Is this the most AWESOME idea ever?  I was going to do this with small batches.  This is way better!  New project for tomorrow!
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: Three on April 09, 2013, 07:41:23 PM

I've spent a lot of my morning on Scott's blog. What good information! Thank you guys for sharing it.  8)

Myself as well.  Very nice of Scott to share! 
Title: Re: simcoe, citra and amarillo
Post by: AmandaK on April 10, 2013, 05:01:20 AM
not to take this thread too far off track, but I did scott's dryhop experiment with bud light and am presenting it at my next brew club meeting - its quite shaming that I have 10 quarts of bud light in my beer fridge right now, but at least I have labels with the dryhops on them!

Funny you say that. A club member posted the dry hopped BL a while back and a few of us are doing this for next week's meeting - just now I finally made the connection that it's the same blog.  ::)