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General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: narcout on November 08, 2009, 10:48:27 PM

Title: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: narcout on November 08, 2009, 10:48:27 PM
There was an interesting, though short, discussion about this method on the NB forum over the summer, and I'm curious as to whether anyone here has experimented with it.

Basically, rather than (or in addition to ) dryhopping, you add hops at flame out and then let the wort stand hot for a period of time (I've seen 60 minutes and 80 minutes suggested) before chilling. The result is supposed to be a better hop flavor and aroma as compared to dryhopping.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: woody on November 08, 2009, 11:14:49 PM
I remember that thread and would love to hear about some results.  I'm looking for some ways for getting more hop flavor and aroma into my amber ale.   Maye I'll make a 10 gallon 'experiment' if I get the guts
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: maxieboy on November 09, 2009, 03:45:36 AM
It works. A couple of months ago, I did a Shark's Tooth Pacific Pale Ale clone that calls for a flameout hop addition, cool wort to 180* and hold for 30 min. No IC here, added flameout hops, let stand 5 min, then heat exchanged(10g, 10 min.). Finished beer had killer hop flavor and aroma with pale ale bitterness. Awesome brew! Here: http://www.tastybrew.com/newrcp/detail/104 (http://www.tastybrew.com/newrcp/detail/104)
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: crabber on November 09, 2009, 12:32:05 PM
It works. A couple of months ago, I did a Shark's Tooth Pacific Pale Ale clone that calls for a flameout hop addition, cool wort to 180* and hold for 30 min. No IC here, added flameout hops, let stand 5 min, then heat exchanged(10g, 10 min.). Finished beer had killer hop flavor and aroma with pale ale bitterness. Awesome brew! Here: http://www.tastybrew.com/newrcp/detail/104 (http://www.tastybrew.com/newrcp/detail/104)
Partially cooling the wort sounds interesting.  That was actually my first thought when I first read this post yesterday.  It must change the way the hops are isomerized.  Is the effect similar to FWH?  Where did you get the idea?
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: blatz on November 09, 2009, 02:25:55 PM
I just tried this with my India Red Ale back in August, though I couldn't bring myself to let it sit the whole 80 minutes - I went about a half hour. We had one of the two kegs at a party a few weeks ago.

The hop aroma is very nice - like a more refined, rounded dry hopping.  The bitterness of the beer seemed higher than what was calculated, and based on my experience with the same hop schedule, so I attribute some of that to the longer steep. 

I don't like not being able to get a handle on what the resultant bitterness is going to be - I know I can trial and error it, but I am 3 parts German, and that just drives the precision side of me bonkers.

What I really did not like was the fact that this batch did not drop crystal clear.  My IPAs/PAs are usually a touch hazy from dryhopping, but are otherwise clear, and overall all my beers are very, very translucent.  This is actually pretty murky.  When I tap the other keg, perhaps I'll take a picture of the pint.  I suspect that this is a result of not chilling quick enough after the boil was complete? 

Obviously, this is only one data point - I would need to do additional trials to see if this is indeed the cause, but the result is not so over the top great or better than flameout+keghopping that I usually do to make it worthwhile, IMO.
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: maxieboy on November 09, 2009, 04:32:31 PM
Partially cooling the wort sounds interesting.  That was actually my first thought when I first read this post yesterday.  It must change the way the hops are isomerized.  Is the effect similar to FWH?  Where did you get the idea?

My understanding is the temp drop is to prevent isomerization(and resultant extra bitterness) and maximize hop flavor and aroma by not driving off aromatics in a boil. TimO suggested the recipe several years ago as an excellent APA to try but I didn't do it until recently. I would think this technique yields more hop flavor and aroma than FWHing. I don't have FWH data points, so someone else with experience with both techniques would have to weigh in. Cheers...
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: denny on November 09, 2009, 04:42:28 PM
It works. A couple of months ago, I did a Shark's Tooth Pacific Pale Ale clone that calls for a flameout hop addition, cool wort to 180* and hold for 30 min. No IC here, added flameout hops, let stand 5 min, then heat exchanged(10g, 10 min.). Finished beer had killer hop flavor and aroma with pale ale bitterness. Awesome brew! Here: http://www.tastybrew.com/newrcp/detail/104 (http://www.tastybrew.com/newrcp/detail/104)

That recipe comes from my good buddy, Bob Girolamo.  He used to own Shark's Tooth Brewing Co.  More of his killer recipes are archived at http://www.tomandteri.com/brewery/bob_recipes.htm
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: maxieboy on November 10, 2009, 04:56:15 AM
Cool, thanks for the link! Sure to be another gem there. The next best thing to brewing and cooking is checking out recipes! I know I'm not the only one who enjoys sitting with cookbooks and beer recipe sources searching for the next great find! Cheers...
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: mcbrew on November 10, 2009, 04:57:22 PM
Wow, thanks for posting that recipe source Denny!
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: crabber on November 11, 2009, 02:49:11 AM
Well this thread has gotten my creative juices flowing.  I've been wanting to build a hopback for a while.  I wonder what would happen if you chilled the wort to 180 or so with an immersion chiller, then ran it through a hopback to a counterflow chiller?
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: denny on November 11, 2009, 02:53:14 AM
I'd think you'd need longer contact than you could get with a hopback.  IIRC, you let them rest at 180 for 20-30 min.
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: blatz on November 11, 2009, 02:55:31 AM
Well this thread has gotten my creative juices flowing.  I've been wanting to build a hopback for a while.  I wonder what would happen if you chilled the wort to 180 or so with an immersion chiller, then ran it through a hopback to a counterflow chiller?

i have a hopback, and don't recommend what you're doing - just run the wort through the hopback and immediately chill post hopback.  trying to chill first is counterproductive - you want super hot then super cold to capture the hop goodness...
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: beerocd on November 12, 2009, 03:02:29 PM
Hopback VS Hopstand  ???
Technically, I get how to do each. What's the difference in the end result?

Hopstand                            VS                        Hopback
increased bitterness                                increased aroma


What else is there?
-OCD
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: roffenburger on November 12, 2009, 04:27:27 PM
I remember the discussion about DMS from the other thread about this. Isn't it much of a concern--letting the wort sit for 80 minutes hot? Have any of you that have tried this noticed any negative results other than blatz's cloudy beer?
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: narcout on November 12, 2009, 05:39:46 PM
Hopback VS Hopstand  ???
Technically, I get how to do each. What's the difference in the end result?

Hopstand                            VS                        Hopback
increased bitterness                                increased aroma


What else is there?
-OCD


The small bit of info I have seen on the subject suggests that the hopstand increases hop flavor and aroma as well.

The mods said it was alright to post a link to the original discussion on the NB forum so if anyone is interested, here it is:

http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=76188&sid=230275390ad402f3eed155a27a523fd8
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: fightdman on November 12, 2009, 06:35:31 PM
I remember the discussion about DMS from the other thread about this. Isn't it much of a concern--letting the wort sit for 80 minutes hot? Have any of you that have tried this noticed any negative results other than blatz's cloudy beer?

This would be my concern as well.  Maybe an experiment is in order.
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: tom on November 12, 2009, 06:44:10 PM
I remember the discussion about DMS from the other thread about this. Isn't it much of a concern--letting the wort sit for 80 minutes hot? Have any of you that have tried this noticed any negative results other than blatz's cloudy beer?
The DMS from malts is only a worry in pale-colored malts like pilsner malt.
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: roffenburger on November 12, 2009, 08:40:11 PM
I remember the discussion about DMS from the other thread about this. Isn't it much of a concern--letting the wort sit for 80 minutes hot? Have any of you that have tried this noticed any negative results other than blatz's cloudy beer?
The DMS from malts is only a worry in pale-colored malts like pilsner malt.

I realize this, and thus the need for 90 minute boils with high percentages of less modified malts like pilsner, but then why is there such stress on cooling your wort rapidly with other grain bills? I know for a fact that I don't use pilsner malt in many of my brews. What are the other benefits of cooling quickly other than a shorter brew day? I'm playing devil's advocate....
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: narvin on November 12, 2009, 10:18:16 PM
I remember the discussion about DMS from the other thread about this. Isn't it much of a concern--letting the wort sit for 80 minutes hot? Have any of you that have tried this noticed any negative results other than blatz's cloudy beer?
The DMS from malts is only a worry in pale-colored malts like pilsner malt.

I realize this, and thus the need for 90 minute boils with high percentages of less modified malts like pilsner, but then why is there such stress on cooling your wort rapidly with other grain bills? I know for a fact that I don't use pilsner malt in many of my brews. What are the other benefits of cooling quickly other than a shorter brew day? I'm playing devil's advocate....



- Cold break formation
- Reduced chance of infection from standing at temperatures that favor bacterial growth.

Of course, there are people who do no chill methods too.  I can't really comment on that.
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: central_wa_brewing on November 13, 2009, 04:49:09 AM
Thanks for the link, Denny.
I might try cooling the wort down below 100F and hold it for a few.  I don't like the fact of leaving the wort out for a while before pitching, but what they hay.
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: boulderbrewer on November 15, 2009, 04:41:46 AM
I used lager malt and did not notice any DMS.  My boil was 90 minutes. I'm sending Blatz this beer so he has two different beers to give some educated feedback. No pressure Blatz. ;)
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: tom on November 15, 2009, 04:58:19 AM
I remember the discussion about DMS from the other thread about this. Isn't it much of a concern--letting the wort sit for 80 minutes hot? Have any of you that have tried this noticed any negative results other than blatz's cloudy beer?
The DMS from malts is only a worry in pale-colored malts like pilsner malt.

I realize this, and thus the need for 90 minute boils with high percentages of less modified malts like pilsner, but then why is there such stress on cooling your wort rapidly with other grain bills? I know for a fact that I don't use pilsner malt in many of my brews. What are the other benefits of cooling quickly other than a shorter brew day? I'm playing devil's advocate....



- Cold break formation
- Reduced chance of infection from standing at temperatures that favor bacterial growth.

Of course, there are people who do no chill methods too.  I can't really comment on that.
Ditto.
Title: Re: Hop stand for increased flavor/aroma
Post by: a10t2 on November 15, 2009, 05:15:23 AM
I realize this, and thus the need for 90 minute boils with high percentages of less modified malts like pilsner, but then why is there such stress on cooling your wort rapidly with other grain bills? I know for a fact that I don't use pilsner malt in many of my brews. What are the other benefits of cooling quickly other than a shorter brew day? I'm playing devil's advocate....

SMM can only be converted to DMS at relatively high temperatures (I think over ~160°F, but can't find it with a quick search). DMS boils at 99°F though, so there's still plenty of time for it to be driven off while chilling. BUT I think most people who do no-chill seal the wort roughly at boiling temperatures and leave it sealed. My guess is that with modern malts tending to have very low SMM levels to begin with, a normal 60 or 90 minute boil eliminates the vast majority. CO2 can also remove DMS during fermentation.

Also, it's good to keep in mind that almost all beers have DMS above the flavor threshold, although there's a lot of variation. In all but a few styles (British ales) the complete absence of detectable DMS would be a flaw.