Homebrewers Association | AHA Forum

General Category => General Homebrew Discussion => Topic started by: micsager on April 24, 2013, 02:39:27 PM

Title: Brewstrong
Post by: micsager on April 24, 2013, 02:39:27 PM
I sure don't listen to Brewstrong as much as I did a few years ago.  But, last night while brewing, I listened to the recent Q&A on going pro. 

Jamil was dogging BJCP judges pretty harshly.  Calling them morans more than once.  Has his commercial success gone to his head? 

It put a bad taste in my mouth.  I've always (and probably still do) respect the man very much. 

Anyway, I turned it off, and downloaded one of Brad Smith's podcast. 

Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: klickitat jim on April 24, 2013, 02:54:10 PM
Hadn't heard it. I guess we can all have bad days. As a new comer to this, I view judges as the priesthood of brewing.  I think its awesome they keep us in line but its fun to do your own thing too. I used crystal in a dark Belgian strong once and it made me feel so naughty lol

"Friends don't let friends drink bad beer"

Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: udubdawg on April 24, 2013, 02:55:31 PM
we're certainly not perfect, and there are some bad apples.  A judge this weekend mentioned that he had lost his sense of smell a few years ago.  Wow, interesting choice of hobby...

but I think we're pretty good, and getting better.  And if I thought poorly of BJCP judges I certainly wouldn't send dozens of entries to NHC...*shrug*

cheers--
--Michael
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: theDarkSide on April 24, 2013, 03:05:13 PM
I am not a judge or ever judged (hope to change that someday soon) so I wouldn't ever call these guys morons.  Jamil, on several occassions, has opined about some of the judges abilities to fill out scoresheets or their lack of skill in filling out these sheets.  He's even listed examples from nationally ranked judges.

Another area that he's complained about, and Gordon Strong has agreed with, is telling people how they brewed something just by tasting the beer.  His thoughts are how a judge can know a person's specific brewing process by detecting a flaw, when that flaw could be the result of several factors regardless of their process.

One of the reasons I haven't become a BJCP judge yet is I'm not confident in my ability to judge a beer according to style.  I'm trying to increase my knowledge before doing so.  I know there's a seriuos shortage of judges but is it better to have that than a flood of judges who don't know what they're doing.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: micsager on April 24, 2013, 03:20:21 PM
Yes, constructive criticism of the process should not offend anyone.  But to call BJCP moran's three or four times in less than a minute turned me off.  I am not a judge.  But, I have seen how hard these folks work to provide scoresheets that mean something to the brewer.

I would suggest you go to a comp and volunteer to judge.  They will sit you with experienced judges.  Even as a stewart I have had judges (Gordon Strong being one) that offered me a taste, and described the specific off flavors in that sample.  It was quite educational. 

Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: morticaixavier on April 24, 2013, 03:33:21 PM
Yes, constructive criticism of the process should not offend anyone.  But to call BJCP moran's three or four times in less than a minute turned me off.  I am not a judge.  But, I have seen how hard these folks work to provide scoresheets that mean something to the brewer.

I would suggest you go to a comp and volunteer to judge.  They will sit you with experienced judges.  Even as a stewart I have had judges (Gordon Strong being one) that offered me a taste, and described the specific off flavors in that sample.  It was quite educational.

was he referring to BJCP judges in general or a particular sector? cause I have received some score sheets that might well make me agree with him about certain judges.

BJCP judges are FAR from perfect and national rank does not necessarily imply a higher sensory ability, just a better descriptive and test taking ability and/or dedication to judging.

That said, I respect the effort made and hope to move in that direction  myself soon.

** EDIT TO ADD **

I actually wouldn't call them morons because I don't really see the point of being mean to people in general. It rarely makes any situation better. but I understand the sentiment and Jamil is a kinda gruff guy.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: klickitat jim on April 24, 2013, 04:01:08 PM
Caveat: I've never been judged

It seems anything can go to far. I enjoy the BJCP style guidelines. However, when it gets to the point that you are arrested as a heretic for using an off style ingredient...

Its good to have rules though. But they don't always have to be followed. Especially if your not competing.

There's also a DIY vs store bought faction. Reinheitsgebot vs fruit and sprinkles crowd. Fun vs serious. Its all good. Keeps it interesting. I remember when it was just beer. Boring!

"Friends don't let friends drink bad beer"

Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: Alewyfe on April 24, 2013, 04:53:21 PM
I am not a BJCP judge. I have judged at sanctioned competitions. I have organized BJCP competitions and I have stewarded at local and NHC level. Some people judging at BJCP level are not doing what they were awarded their credentials for. The score sheets are sorely lacking in useful information and thoroughness.
This is very disappointing to people competing to better their beers. For some judges, it's obvious that judging has become a chore they don't enjoy or take as seriously as they should. They should stop judging.
Fortunately, there are a huge number of qualified judges doing an exemplary job of providing the feedback most of us are competing for. It's the luck of the draw really. Don't give up after one or two crumby experiences. After a while, some of the score sheets become entertaining in what they reveal about the judge!

You can not judge something with no criteria against which to judge. In beer comps it's the style guideline.
Trust me...there is nothing so heartbreaking as tasting an absolutely perfect beer that can't win only because it has been entered in the wrong category, but, there's plenty of opportunity to commend the brewer in the final section of the score sheet. (overall impression)
when you're having to judge it.

Judges do a thankless job, at their own expense. They miss out on some of the activities at NHC and other festivals where the competitions are held. They travel to various locations at their own expense and all they get are measly points toward higher ranking for their efforts. They should never, ever be dissed. Shame on Jamil for doing so. He's undoubtedly a great brewer and I respect that, but it's disappointing to hear that he made disparaging comments when so many homebrewers idolize him. Go ahead and criticize when it is called for. Judges need to be held to high standards if they are going to contribute to the brewing community, but it can be done in a civil and constructive manner. Then again, the whole tenor of the Brewing Network programs is very juvenile, albeit, while providing some good information.

Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: denny on April 24, 2013, 04:57:06 PM
We all know that judges aren't perfect, but it seems that Jamil's comments were very impolitic and illustrate the reason I don't listen to BN shows.  I may be missing some good info, but it just insults me as much as television advertising does.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: jeffy on April 24, 2013, 05:01:41 PM
Jamil used to say hello and shake my hand at NHC's in the past, but for a couple years he's been distant.  Maybe I'm one of the judges he is ranting about since there's a pretty good chance I judged some of his beer in the finals when he was going for Ninkasi.
The thing about being a beer judge is that it is sorta stressful to judge someone's beer.  You never know if it's Gordon Strong's or Jamil's or some new guy's so you have to be careful of what you write.
High rank in my case simply means that I take tests well and have been around a long time.
I do fill up the entire score sheet, hopefully with pertinent information and use all the clues available to formulate an opinion.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: AmandaK on April 24, 2013, 05:14:51 PM
We all know that judges aren't perfect, but it seems that Jamil's comments were very impolitic and illustrate the reason I don't listen to BN shows.

This is exactly why I don't listen to the BN anymore. Their dick joke to good information ratio is about 10:1 whereas I like it to be more around 1:5.

I have met Jamil a few times, the first time was right before he opened his brewery. We met for beers at the Toranado on Haight St. He was wonderfully nice to me. We talked for hours about beers, breweries and the like. The last time was NHC 2012, where I explained our first meeting again. He simply grunted and turned away. A bit strange if you ask me. So perhaps it isn't just you, jeffy!  ;)

At any rate, I don't think calling judges "morons" is appropriate for all the reasons mentioned above.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: narvin on April 24, 2013, 05:24:59 PM
Yeah, those judges suck... they expect every beer to taste like Jamil's stupid recipe even though many styles vary greatly  ;D
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: klickitat jim on April 24, 2013, 05:27:06 PM
Well if anyone needs to be snubbed I'll do it for a cold beer. Can't promise to keep a straight face though.

"Friends don't let friends drink bad beer"

Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: denny on April 24, 2013, 05:33:25 PM
Well if anyone needs to be snubbed I'll do it for a cold beer. Can't promise to keep a straight face though.

"Friends don't let friends drink bad beer"

Thanks, but I can get it from my club for free!  ;)
Title: Brewstrong
Post by: majorvices on April 24, 2013, 05:55:45 PM
We all know that judges aren't perfect, but it seems that Jamil's comments were very impolitic and illustrate the reason I don't listen to BN shows.  I may be missing some good info, but it just insults me as much as television advertising does.

I listened to it for the first year or two when it was "underground" .... when they went with the heavy production and heavy commercial bent I lost inserts. Nothing against those guys, I met a few of them and they were great in person, but the product is not for me, personally. And I guess that's ok. ;)
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: dmtaylor on April 24, 2013, 10:52:23 PM
Brew Strong was never a very good show, IMHO.  Jamil and Justin and the crew had other great shows for a lot of years, but then in the past 3 years or thereabouts, the whole BN thing just kind of flopped, at least that's how it felt for me.  I don't listen to any of it anymore, except maybe the occasional episode from 2007-2008 from the good ole days.  I agree with others that the crap-to-quality ratio has swung too far.  10:1 isn't even close.  It's more like 500:1 these days.

As for judges, I might actually have to agree with Jamil (not personally hearing his actual points being made, but anyway...) that there are a surprising number of crap judges out there.  I say this, and I myself am a Recognized judge (and a damn fine one, at that -- just ask me).  Enter a couple of competitions, and you'll find my opinion about crap judges to be true very quickly when you get scoresheets back that don't make any sense and/or provide zero useful feedback.  Happens everyday, all the time, all over the place.

BJCP will never be perfect.  There are too many thousands of judges and we cannot all be policed, nor should we be.  We are all entitled to our own opinions based on our own experiences and knowledge base, which have an extremely broad range, and some of us write a hell of a lot more than others (ha ha).  All I can try to do as a judge is to dish out the same level of feedback that I would expect if I were entering, or better -- go the extra mile and try to make the homebrew world a better place.  That's what I strive for.

Here is a thought: It is possible to be egotistical, AND to be correct, at the same time.  Occasionally somebody gets it right.  Jamil *might* be one of those guys.  Personally I don't always agree with everything he says, far from it in fact.  But undeniably, he is a pretty smart dude, and he's accomplished a lot.  If it's all gone to his head, well... can you really blame him?  I don't know.  I'm not sure what I'd do in his situation.  It's hard for a camel to get through the eye of a needle and all that.  You also need to remember that Jamil is not Jesus.  He is not to be worshipped.  He is human.  Give him a break!  You don't like what he has to say?  Offended?  Fine, go listen to some other podcast, who cares.  If I were him, I'd expect the same response.

Personally my favorite podcast of all time was Craft Brewer Radio with Graham Sanders.  He was wrong.  A lot.  A ton of technical errors.  But a lot of good tidbits in there too.  And entertaining to listen to.  For educational podcasts, Basic Brewing all the way baby.  Love that one.  It's very dry, but chock full of good info and minimal fluff.  If you don't like Brew Strong, rest assured -- there are many great podcasts out there.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: micsager on April 24, 2013, 11:17:37 PM
Thanks for your impassioned views.  I think it's great we have this board to discuss such views.

For me, I agree that Jamil was a skilled homebrewer, and his opinions, views, and outlook continue to be relevant.  But, I have personally witnessed BJCP judges giving their all to this hobby.  And for anyone to call them "morons" is just sick and wrong. 

Without them, and all that support them, the AHA would cease to exist. 

Title: Brewstrong
Post by: jbthomas69 on April 25, 2013, 12:26:35 AM
One thing to remember always is that BJCP os judging to style. If you send a West coast APA to Tulsa it will be treated according to their interpretation of style.

If an American judge is tasting Duesseldorf Altbier And hasnt been to Duesseldorf can you fault him for not getting it right?  Their arent good American commercial examples of the style.

Judging is subjective based on tastes and perception. If they charged more for competitions there might be room to complain.



Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: jamminbrew on April 25, 2013, 12:56:46 AM
I am not really a fan of Jamil, but I do like John Palmer. I still listen to the Brewstrong, but it is not high on my list. I prefer Brad Smith and Better Brewing Radio.

As far as judging goes, it can be very subjective. I am in classes for BJCP certification. I am currently a provisional judge, and will be taking my tests next month. We have recently been using the Siebel Institute's flaw kit for tasting flaws and other flavors. Everyone has a different threshold for flaws. Some I picked up on right away, some I could not detect, though others could clearly pick up on it. I have judged 2 comps, and did get to try some very off beers. Some were downright horrible. Many homebrewers (myself included) think their beers are the sh!t. One of my categories was English Brown. There were 15 beers in the flight. 8 of them were flawed. 2 were clearly in the wrong category. When you have limited time, and a lot of beers to judge, it can be very difficult to spend a lot of time on writing a full and comprehensive score sheet. Not everyone can get the information they think they should get. 
I also entered my DIPA in two recent comps. One was a state wide comp here in Colorado, and one was the NHC. The local comp scored it a 27 ( one judge was a national) and the NHC scored it a 38. (one judge was a master) Same beer, same batch,same everything. two very different scores. Take your scores with a grain of salt. Not everyone can be a Grand Master.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: klickitat jim on April 25, 2013, 01:11:59 AM
English Brown? Wouldn't a sh!t beer be a Boneless Brown? I think its 99F

"Friends don't let friends drink bad beer"
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: AmandaK on April 26, 2013, 12:22:38 PM
One thing to remember always is that BJCP os judging to style. If you send a West coast APA to Tulsa it will be treated according to their interpretation of style.

If an American judge is tasting Duesseldorf Altbier And hasnt been to Duesseldorf can you fault him for not getting it right?  Their arent good American commercial examples of the style.

This is incorrect.

1) A 'West Coast APA' as I interpret it is edging on being out of style for 10A - Pale Ale anyway (hops edging on IPA, too dry, not enough malt support usually). It should not matter where you send it. The judges MUST use the style guidelines to judge against. If they use "their interpretation of style", then we might as well throw out the guidelines altogether.

2) The same point applies here. It should not matter if you have been straight to the source to try a commercial example. If you can read the guidelines, it states what should be in there. I can't tell you how many times I've sat across from an "experienced judge" who just came back from a trip to Germany. The last one INSISTED that a Düsseldorf Altbier should be musty and papery. Seriously?? If that's what 'going to the source' gets you, I'll stick with the style guidelines instead.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: jeffy on April 26, 2013, 12:39:35 PM
One thing to remember always is that BJCP os judging to style. If you send a West coast APA to Tulsa it will be treated according to their interpretation of style.

If an American judge is tasting Duesseldorf Altbier And hasnt been to Duesseldorf can you fault him for not getting it right?  Their arent good American commercial examples of the style.

I can't tell you how many times I've sat across from an "experienced judge" who just came back from a trip to Germany. The last one INSISTED that a Düsseldorf Altbier should be musty and papery.

That's funny.  Our local German restaurant and craft beer bar has gotten kegs from Zum Eurige that were sour.  Once he got one that had a definite Brett character.  It was pretty good, but it was also a mistake.
Title: Re: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: klickitat jim on April 26, 2013, 01:41:20 PM
I can't tell you how many times I've sat across from an "experienced judge" who just came back from a trip to Germany. The last one INSISTED that a Düsseldorf Altbier should be musty and papery. Seriously?
[/quote]

This sounds strangely similar to my point on commercial vs homebrew.

"Friends don't let friends drink bad beer"

Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: udubdawg on April 26, 2013, 03:52:23 PM
One thing to remember always is that BJCP os judging to style. If you send a West coast APA to Tulsa it will be treated according to their interpretation of style.


This is incorrect.

1) A 'West Coast APA' as I interpret it is edging on being out of style for 10A - Pale Ale anyway (hops edging on IPA, too dry, not enough malt support usually). It should not matter where you send it. The judges MUST use the style guidelines to judge against. If they use "their interpretation of style", then we might as well throw out the guidelines altogether.


Tulsa and KC NHC Category 10A were both full of "hop juice" entrants.  seems to be a new thing.  "Session IPA" I guess.   ::)  Agreed though. 
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: tschmidlin on April 26, 2013, 05:03:20 PM
1) A 'West Coast APA' as I interpret it is edging on being out of style for 10A - Pale Ale anyway (hops edging on IPA, too dry, not enough malt support usually). It should not matter where you send it. The judges MUST use the style guidelines to judge against. If they use "their interpretation of style", then we might as well throw out the guidelines altogether.
I agree to a point, but "moderate to strong" (hop aroma) is a subjective measure, and if the 10th beer in a flight is exactly the same as the 1st beer I suspect it would not taste as hoppy due to palate fatigue.  Plus, like it or not, there are regional judging differences.  I think Mirror Pond has moderate hop aroma - some might think it is strong because they are used to drinking beers with less hops.  That's fine, but if you drink a hop bomb and then try the Mirror Pond it's going to taste malty.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: tomsawyer on April 26, 2013, 08:43:38 PM
For the record I am a fairly new judge and I do my best which I'm sure is not good enough for someone like a JZ.  I can live with that.  He can't judge all the beers that need judging.

Having made this admission, I feel that judging beer is subjective and people shouldn't get so worked up about it.  I know there are people out there for whom competition is of paramount importance, but for god's sakes its only a beer.  Even the greatest beer in the world is going to be piss shortly after its consumed.  I'll be happy when the current fad for homebrew contests fades.  Until then I wish the clubs running these contests would limit the number of entries so I wouldn't have to judge ten+ beers per flight.  I don't think I've been to a single comp where there were enough judges, and many have had to resort to enlisting every warm body in the vicinity not just experienced judges.  I also wish BJCP would help by making the certification process a little simpler.  They probably thought they did this with their changes but I don't see where its any easier to get into a tasting exam now.

Blame this rant on JZ.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: micsager on April 26, 2013, 08:57:39 PM
Wow, Sometimes I think I should keep my opinions to myself.  I did not mean to generate such a reaction. 

Having said that, I do enjoy lively debate.  And, it's obvious that many do not enjoy the BJCP judging process.  And I can respect that.  But really, as a homebrewer I paid $5-$10 to enter a competition.  Not all that much, and as I stated before, I've witnessed many judgings, and I KNOW FOR CERTAIN that the judges and all involved work very hard to make this as meaningful as possible. 

And what do you really expect for $8?  GABF costs just under $200 to enter.  My own state just started a competition program for pro brewers and it's still $40 an entry.  They judge on BA standards, not BJCP.  I'll be interested to see how our flagship American Amber does. 

The main point I was trying to make is that BJCP judges are some of the best folks I have ever met.  Are they perfect?  No way.  But for such an icon in the homebrewing community to call them morons like JZ did makes him look bad, not the judges. 

(I guess I won't get that tour of the new Heretic brewery) 
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: repo on April 26, 2013, 09:19:54 PM
Having listened to that episode now, I think you are taking his comments out of context and blowing out of proportion what seemed to me to be a mostly joking yet small slight at judging. He also sincerely says in the same episode that taking the bjcp is something he recommends to aspiring commercial brewers. 

They are trying to be entertaining and funny while also providing some information. They are drinking while doing this as well. It is by no means politically correct nor should it be taken too seriously.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: micsager on April 26, 2013, 09:34:04 PM
Having listened to that episode now, I think you are taking his comments out of context and blowing out of proportion what seemed to me to be a mostly joking yet small slight at judging. He also sincerely says in the same episode that taking the bjcp is something he recommends to aspiring commercial brewers. 

They are trying to be entertaining and funny while also providing some information. They are drinking while doing this as well. It is by no means politically correct nor should it be taken too seriously.

Hmmmm.

Thanks for your opinion.  I did not see it the same way.  But, maybe I'm being to hardnosed.  It's happened before.  LOL.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: brewmasternpb on April 27, 2013, 04:23:48 AM
I would have to agree with Repo.  It's been a while since I listened to that episode, but I don't remember being offended by it, and I'm usually very critical of anyone who uses name-calling.  It's surprising to me how many people dislike the BN programming, I'm pretty hooked, I haven't listened to Music in a year.  However, this is a great thread, and props to the OP for defending the judges.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: erockrph on April 27, 2013, 01:42:05 PM
I take a lot of what I hear on the BN shows with a grain of salt. There's no doubt that Jamil was an excellent homebrewer, and I owe him and the BN in general a lot of thanks for helping me brew good beer starting very early on as a homebrewer. But I have a pretty sensitive BS meter, and Jamil sets it off all the time (especially on Brew Strong).

I can get past the commercials and sophomoric humor (that's what the fast forward button is for), but it bugs me how Jamil is obviously making s*** up on the fly in response to questions and everyone on the BN just treats it as gospel - as if Jamil is Homebrew Jesus. He has obviously paid his dues, and his educated guess is way more likely to be close to the mark than most other homebrewers, but in the end it is still just an opinion. He also seems a lot less prepared for shows now that he has become a full-time commercial brewer. Although Jamil was a big part in getting the BN to where it is today, I think they need to bring in some new blood that is currently an active homebrewer or else they may start to stagnate.

I'll definitely take Basic Brewing over the BN any day since James approaches everything with an open mindset, and encourages experimentation that flies in the face of pre-conceived notions in homebrewing. We're still learning a lot as a whole in this hobby, and it's this kind of scientific approach which will keep the hobby moving forward and benefit us all as brewers.
Title: Brewstrong
Post by: majorvices on April 27, 2013, 02:16:07 PM
I take a lot of what I hear on the BN shows with a grain of salt. There's no doubt that Jamil was an excellent homebrewer, and I owe him and the BN in general a lot of thanks for helping me brew good beer starting very early on as a homebrewer. But I have a pretty sensitive BS meter, and Jamil sets it off all the time (especially on Brew Strong).

I can get past the commercials and sophomoric humor (that's what the fast forward button is for), but it bugs me how Jamil is obviously making s*** up on the fly in response to questions and everyone on the BN just treats it as gospel - as if Jamil is Homebrew Jesus. He has obviously paid his dues, and his educated guess is way more likely to be close to the mark than most other homebrewers, but in the end it is still just an opinion. He also seems a lot less prepared for shows now that he has become a full-time commercial brewer. Although Jamil was a big part in getting the BN to where it is today, I think they need to bring in some new blood that is currently an active homebrewer or else they may start to stagnate.

I'll definitely take Basic Brewing over the BN any day since James approaches everything with an open mindset, and encourages experimentation that flies in the face of pre-conceived notions in homebrewing. We're still learning a lot as a whole in this hobby, and it's this kind of scientific approach which will keep the hobby moving forward and benefit us all as brewers.

This is pretty funny. I remember years ago Jamil saying something about how bottled water is not sanitary, and how they laid out 10 gallon jugs of water in the sun and 4 or 5 of them turned green. Then, two or three months later I hear that laying bottled water out in the sun is a technique promoted by scientists and doctors to sanitize and treat water in third world countries.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: a10t2 on April 27, 2013, 03:10:30 PM
it bugs me how Jamil is obviously making s*** up on the fly in response to questions and everyone on the BN just treats it as gospel

That really bothers me too. It isn't like it's a call-in show. If you have the questions ahead of time, how can you not research the answers? I don't listen to all the shows, but it seems like there's at least one factual error per episode.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: dzlater on April 28, 2013, 10:50:41 AM
I learned a lot from listening to the BN shows over the years.  Denny was on  there years ago talking about "cheap easy and pragmatic", and that show me decide I could tackle all grain.
But I rarely listen anymore. For me the BN has sort of run it's course they have done a show on just about every homebrewing topic you could think of.
I mostly just listen to the Q&A BrewStrong shows hoping to get some homebrewing info.
I don't take Jamil's advice as gospel though.
The focus on probrewing and probrewers doesn't really interest me that much. They have that new show where thet sit around and drink commercial beers of a certain style. "so Z stout is more roasty then Y stout, and A stout seems a bit sweeter" not real interesting at least to me.
Even the interviews with the probrewers get a bit tedious after a while. Sorry but I really don't care if Joe's Brewing company uses a 10 or 20 barrel system, or "we have really good water in Bumblebutt Illinios so we don't have to treat our water"
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: nateo on April 28, 2013, 01:25:41 PM
IMO, the only good part about Brewstrong is the guests. I really can't stand the people who run it. You can learn more about beer listening to Charlie Bamforth for one hour than Jamil for ten.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: hubie on April 28, 2013, 10:49:20 PM
The problem with homebrew podcasts in general is that in many of them the hosts are drinking.  And just as it is true in the pub, when people are drinking they usually are not as funny or clever as they think they are.  The early (2006-2007) Jamil Shows seemed like they were recorded early in the morning before work.  The info was much more straightforward.  Even with a show like Basic Brewing, when James and Andy are drinking when doing it, there is a lot more giggling and off-topic jokes.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: cornershot on April 29, 2013, 12:44:00 PM
Sure, brewstrong is full of adolescent humor and commercials and some bs. But for the intermediate brewer, it is full of some great nuggets of info. Like gold mining, ya gotta sift thru a lot of crap to find a nugget, but when you do it's worth it. Sure I can probably get much of the same info from reading a book, but If I can listen while at work or driving and pick up something that makes me a better brewer, it's worth it to me and I owe Jamil much thanks for all the great info.
As far as the humor goes, we all take our brewing seriously, but sometimes ya gotta take a step back and remember it's just beer *gasp!* and we all started drinking it because it's fun! Beer and fun tend to pair quite well! Remember?
That said, he's been a bit snarky on the latest shows. Maybe it's just stress from the running a brewery thing. Nothing like going pro to take the fun out of a perfectly good hobby. And btw, I don't worship Jamil and I doubt anyone does(except perhaps Jamil).  ;)

My 2¢
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: theDarkSide on April 29, 2013, 01:01:37 PM
as if Jamil is Homebrew Jesus.

Jamil isn't Jesus...he's the Pope.

That really bothers me too. It isn't like it's a call-in show. If you have the questions ahead of time, how can you not research the answers? I don't listen to all the shows, but it seems like there's at least one factual error per episode.

A lot of the questions do come from the live chat.  On several occassions, I have heard Jamil and John Palmer (oh yeah...he's on this show too) say they don't know the answer rather than give false information.

As I've said before on Homebrewtalk, Beer Advocate, etc...If you don't like the show or how it's run, don't listen and let others form their own opinions.  I haven't listened to BBR for years (unless there is something specific I'm researching ) because I find it very dry and boring...like watch golf on TV, while lying on the couch (https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTFhBVX4aGg_2odQ9s7YOxCRE1f-lk-31aYO5idUOx0s1rAyXfG) but it would reccommend to anyone looking for brewing information so they can check it out themselves.

I guess I won't be seeing a bunch of you at BN8 then  ;)
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: reverseapachemaster on April 29, 2013, 02:21:20 PM
I listen to some of the BN shows but I'm definitely no disciple. The humor doesn't bother me except the quantity of off-topic to substantive material makes for a lot of fast-forwarding. I usually only listen to the shows that have specific topics that interest me. I pass on the Q&A because I don't want to hear hours of somebody making up answers to basic homebrewing questions. There's probably a lot of good info there but as erockrph pointed out a lot of times the answers are made up garbage and not always correct, especially when questions are asked about more obscure or advanced subjects.

BBR and Beersmith podcasts can be very dry but at least it's one hour of mostly wall to wall info. I appreciate the time efficiency.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: kgs on April 29, 2013, 02:44:28 PM
Basic Brewing Radio was very useful to me when I started homebrewing in early 2009, not just for information about homebrewing but also as my travel companion for long drives around Georgia for a job I had back then. I still listen and enjoy the shows, and don't find them at all dry. They are professionally done and often very amusing, and I feel comfortable recommending the shows (and the DVDs) to new homebrewers. I also appreciate the emphasis on entry-level brewing and on cost-effective approaches to have fun with the hobby.

I gave up on BN. There are gems of information in those podcasts, but the signal to noise ratio just isn't worth it.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: brewmasternpb on May 02, 2013, 04:48:51 AM


I guess I won't be seeing a bunch of you at BN8 then  ;)
[/quote]

Only because we have to visit the inlaws when we get to Philly on Wednesday (someone has to watch the kiddo).
Any complaint about a show on the BN always ends up with the whole network being trashed...  But there are those who enjoy the programming and those who don't, and that's O.K.  I could say why I like the BN, but that's for another topic.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: micsager on May 02, 2013, 07:52:32 PM
I will always love and respect The BN.  Heck, I give Justin $10 a month just to keep him off the streets.  LOL.  And my wife and I volunteered at BNA7 in Seattle.  (I was they guy jumping on the bus as you arrived giving directions)

Justin and all the BN staff (including Jamil) have done wonders for our hobby/profession.  Even if one doesn't like this guy or that guy, or a comment here or there, we should all be happy they are out there doing what they do. 

The early Brewstrong years taught me much.  The recent Q&A format is not really for me. 
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: chumley on May 05, 2013, 09:55:42 PM
This is a funny thread to stumble across.  I had a good time reading it.

Once everyone liberates themselves from styles and brew what tastes good to you and your friends, family, and acquaintances, you will all feel better about yourselves.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: nateo on May 05, 2013, 10:13:06 PM
Once everyone liberates themselves from styles and brew what tastes good to you and your friends, family, and acquaintances, you will all feel better about yourselves.

I will never feel better about myself! You can't make me!
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on May 06, 2013, 12:25:11 AM
I can listen only so many Adam and Eve commercials.

I used to listen BN shows. Not any more.
Title: Re: Brewstrong
Post by: The Professor on May 06, 2013, 12:47:35 AM
This is a funny thread to stumble across.  I had a good time reading it.

Once everyone liberates themselves from styles and brew what tastes good to you and your friends, family, and acquaintances, you will all feel better about yourselves.

Amen to that!