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General Category => Going Pro => Topic started by: Thirsty_Monk on May 02, 2013, 01:06:50 PM

Title: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on May 02, 2013, 01:06:50 PM
Would you guys like to share what kind of cleaning chemicals are you using?

I am using PBW and it is fine for soaking but does not cut it on SS.
I also have Acid Cleaner 5 but it looks like it is too weak also.

I am using Saniclen for sanitizing and that is fine.
Starsand for manual sanitizing and that is fine as well.

All products are from Five Star Chemicals.

Any recommendation?
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: hopfenundmalz on May 02, 2013, 01:11:59 PM
Are you saying that PBW doesn't remove beerstone? For beerstone you need acid and some scrubbing.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: majorvices on May 02, 2013, 01:29:47 PM
Regular passivation (I do quarterly) will cut down on beer stone.

I use Loeffler Chemcials. I still mix up some "PBW" for little side jobs, but it doesn't cut it on stainless (oddly it works fairly well on plastic).

For Fermentaion tanks we use Lerapur (caustic) and Lerasept O (oxidizer) hot for 20-40 minutes.

For BBTs and stainless kegs we Use Leracid. For passivation we use double strength Leracid. Sometimes we flush all Co2 out of BBTs and caustic clean them. You don't want to use Caustic in the presence of Co2 because it cuts down on it efficacy.

We use Leracept PAA for sanitizing and 70% isopropyl alc for ports and valves and such.

For homebrewing, 5 star is fine but even though it is expensive you will have a lot less frustrations cleaning using Industrial cleaners/sanitizers. The PAA has a much higher kill rate that Star San.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: a10t2 on May 02, 2013, 02:30:23 PM
For fermenters, non-chlorinated caustic for cleaning and chlorine dioxide (activated with phosphoric acid) for sanitizing. Parts and pieces get soaked in CMC, then either Star San or iodophor, switched weekly just to keep the critters guessing. For brights/kegs (once we start kegging), Acid #6 and then ClO2, under pressure*. Once a quarter I'll do an acid cycle/passivation on the fermenters, as well as blow down the brights for a caustic cycle. I also keep a spray bottle of 99% isopropanol around for flaming ports prior to yeast harvesting, trub drops, etc.


*Can't we give ourselves one more cha-ance?
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: tschmidlin on May 02, 2013, 05:16:52 PM
I use a liquid caustic (not sure of the manufacturer, I didn't order it and I'm not at the brewery) and purisan (Wesmar peracetic acid).
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on May 03, 2013, 04:46:28 PM
Thank you guys for the input.
I contacted local chemical supplier. we have a lot of food production in Dairy state so availability is not the issue.

I have to say I am more confused about it then I was before.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: anthony on May 05, 2013, 01:13:31 AM
At times, I'm finding myself underwhelmed by both price and performance of PBW as well too.

Sometimes I use Liquid Circulation Cleaner #1 from Five Star and it is a lot more effective with less, BUT then I have to worry about gloves, goggles, etc.

Acid #5 is for passivation, doesn't really work well for removing organic deposits, but for beer stone, it seems to work alright.

I don't mind the foaming properties of Star-San, again because I don't really have to take serious precautions when handling it vs PAA.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: newrocset on May 05, 2013, 05:54:17 AM
I have been using Birko Cell-R-Master to clean my stainless kettles, kegs, and glass carboys for the past year and love it way more than PBW.  A few of my brew club members piggybacked on a bulk order with one of our breweries who uses a lot of their products.  I haven't tried any of their other products.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: quattlebaum on May 05, 2013, 02:05:03 PM
Personally i use PBW on all my brewing equipment. I have noticed it doesnt work as well on My SS HERMS system. For PBW to be most effective you MUST heat it to at least 140 degrees and 1 oz per gallon. 5 star says heat between 140 and 160 and DO NOT go over 180. It will change the structure of the chemical and turn it to gel/glue like substance. I did this in a small SS pot and sure enough it did turn to gel. Very hard to clean off even with scrubbing. I clean my HERMS with PBW heated to 145 every 10th batch or so and must scrub with sponge.
I also have really high Bicarb/hard water and it requires a 1:20 acid (Nitric/phosphoric blend) to dissolve it. It must be heated also. It really works well. Turns it to powder right before my eyes.

I wish i could find a more affordable chemical like PBW for my HERMS to clean organic material. Can anyone point me in a direction where i can buy online? 
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on May 05, 2013, 02:40:24 PM
I have been using Birko Cell-R-Master to clean my stainless kettles, kegs, and glass carboys for the past year and love it way more than PBW.
Is this a liquid or powder.
What size containers it comes in? Is it Acid or Costic/Base?
I heard a good things about Birko.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on May 05, 2013, 02:43:35 PM
For PBW to be most effective you MUST heat it to at least 140 degrees and 1 oz per gallon. 5 star says heat between 140 and 160 and DO NOT go over 180.
I found that running PBW colder is better. I run it at 160F and it seperated and coded my bright tank walls. I was not able to remove it yet with good acid.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: quattlebaum on May 05, 2013, 03:09:14 PM
That sucks! i was worried about that happening on my HERMS i am lucky enough to have an in with a local brewery and they use Shepard brothers shear 250 which is a heavy duty liquid alkaline cleaner for circulation, soak and spray cleaning for brewery. It takes all organic material off in no time, no scrubbing. I just dont feel comfortable asking them for it all the time. It is hard to get this type of product on a home brew level without going through someone else. I believe when we step up our homebrew systems to pre pro level we would benefit from such professional chemicals.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: newrocset on May 06, 2013, 03:01:34 AM
I have been using Birko Cell-R-Master to clean my stainless kettles, kegs, and glass carboys for the past year and love it way more than PBW.
Is this a liquid or powder.
What size containers it comes in? Is it Acid or Costic/Base?
I heard a good things about Birko.

Powder Form, I think we got a 25lb. order that came in a 5 gallon bucket, but you can order up to 450 lbs.  Their website says they make mostly acid cleaners.
Here's a link to their website.  If you click on the "matching products" tab, it gives you the 5 star equivalent.
http://www.birkocorp.com/brewery/ (http://www.birkocorp.com/brewery/)
I've brought a solution of this cleaner to a boil to clean my plate chiller and have had excellent results.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: wayne1 on May 06, 2013, 01:49:54 PM
Thirsty_Monk,

You may want to read this "White Paper"http://www.birkocorp.com/brewery/white-papers/noncaustic-cleaning-in-the-brewery/ (http://www.birkocorp.com/brewery/white-papers/noncaustic-cleaning-in-the-brewery/) that Dana Johnson of Birko wrote back in '96 for New Brewer.

It gives good reasons for using an Acid cycle first on the brew kettle followed immediately by a non-caustic alkaline wash, no rinse between. He has also written several other white papers on using Nitric/Phosphoric acid blends with added detergents for bright tank and keg cleaning.

I have used PBW, Bru-R-EZ, Cell-R-Mastr, etc. They all have their uses. I do prefer to use a non-caustic alkaline over caustics for safety.

Give Dana a call or E-mail. I am sure he can help you out.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: brewmonk on May 09, 2013, 02:42:50 PM
We use Ecolab products

mipCIP (lye solution) for cleaning
Horolith V (nitric acid solution) for beer stone
Oxonia Active (peracetic acid solution) for sanitizing

(Actually haven't had to remove any beer stone yet)
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: kylekohlmorgen on May 09, 2013, 04:10:55 PM
Ecolab support has been extremely helpful in dialing in our CIP process.

I think their chemicals are too expensive, even on the bulk scale we buy them. They are effective, though. I've been told its because their approved for our organic/kosher/allergen-free/gluten-free products, but I don't buy it. I'm also not the one paying the bills.

They also attack every CIP issue with chemicals (especially new, fancy, pricey ones). Sometimes its the right answer, sometimes an expensive band-aid.

Anyway, here is how we CIP our kettles/process lines/fillers:

1. Hot rinse with water from recovered post-caustic rinse
2. AC-103 (NaOH) diluted to 2% at 180F, recirc for 30 min. (I think its more effective and easier on the pumps at 4% caustic and a lower temp, but its more expensive)
3. Fresh water hot/cold rinse (recovered)
4. Quorum Red (Phosphoric/Citric Acid) wash, diluted to 1%, recirc for 20 min
5. Fresh water rinse
6. Sanitizer recirc (Oxonia Active = PAA, with some H2O2 and Acetic acid) for 2 min (or until negative swab-test)

Note: I work in a small plant that pasteurizes and packages fruit purees and yogurt, but the process side looks/functions very much like a brewery.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: Pawtucket Patriot on May 09, 2013, 04:29:44 PM
I have been using Birko Cell-R-Master to clean my stainless kettles, kegs, and glass carboys for the past year and love it way more than PBW.  A few of my brew club members piggybacked on a bulk order with one of our breweries who uses a lot of their products.  I haven't tried any of their other products.

BIRKO products are what we will be using in our brewery.  I met the owner at the CBC a few months ago.  Nice guy -- seems like a good company.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on May 09, 2013, 11:55:38 PM
I did talk to Ecolab rep.
The product that he recommended is available in 50 gal barrel only.
I do not recall the product name.
Title: Re: Cleaning chemicals
Post by: Thirsty_Monk on June 29, 2013, 01:02:14 AM
I thought that I would fallow up with my experience.

First do this:
THROW AWAY THE PBW.

So I talked to EcoLab and they had the product only in 50 gal barrels. It was mostly acid chemicals and to my recollection you need to have alkaline and acid products. Alkaline for organic matter and acid for beer stone/ calcium sediment.

Then I try the Birko. I like their product line up but... Man that was like pulling the teeth. So after month going back and forth I decided if it is that hard to buy stuff from them, then it is not meant to be.

So back to Five Star I went.
I bought it thru MCMS out of Chicago.
I got HD Caustic #2, Star Line, Acid Cleaner #5, Acid Cleaner #6 and SaniClean.

I used HD Caustic #2 the other day. It is a powder and I run it about 1 oz per 1 gal of water at 140F for 30 minutes. Boy the fermenter was so clean when I was done. So far so good. What is nice about HD Caustic #2 is that you can run it at different temperatures depending on application and strength of solution. I will be cleaning my BK next week So we will see how it works on heating elements...